Why HARM spell is the Red Headed Stepchild?

[cinoaz]

Is there a reason why HARM is not affected by Empower Healing, nor Empower, nor Maximize feats.

I always believed that HEAL and HARM were mirror images of each other, one positive and one negative energy.

Is this planned or just overlooked?

[Angelus_dead]

I always believed that HEAL and HARM were mirror images of each other, one positive and one negative energy.

They are. Neither Heal nor Harm works with Maximize or Empower, for reasons that are arbitrary and undocumented. Empowered Healing works on Heal, but not on Harm, because Harm isn't a positive energy spell.

The undocumented reasoning for Harm to disallow Maximize and Empower is because those feats don't work on it in D&D. In D&D, Maximize and Empower are written as only applying to random damage (like 2d6/level) , not fixed damage (10/level). The DDO versions of those feats changed those rules, but retained one of the effects, and you can't Maximize Heal or Harm.

Fun Fact: By the D&D rules, you also can't Maximize or Empower most of the damage produced by Wall of Fire... but that's allowed to work in DDO.

[dameron]

Fun Fact: By the D&D rules, you also can't Maximize or Empower most of the damage produced by Wall of Fire... but that's allowed to work in DDO.

Maximize might not be the best call for WoF because you're tossing so few dice, but Empower works fine, doing up to (2d6 + 20) * 1.5 = 33-48.

The part about "cures half again as many hit points" makes it clear that the additional "damage" per caster level is part of the variable numeric effect.

[Angelus_dead]

Maximize might not be the best call for WoF because you're tossing so few dice, but Empower works fine, doing up to (2d6 + 20) * 1.5 = 33-48.

That's true according to the English-language definition of the word "variable". However, there is strong evidence that the D&D authors misunderstood what "variable" means, and meant something else when they wrote it.

[dameron]

That's true according to the English-language definition of the word "variable". However, there is strong evidence that the D&D authors misunderstood what "variable" means, and meant something else when they wrote it.

I'm trying to read the feat in a way where someone could interpret it as excluding the per level additional damage and I'm just not seeing it:

Empower Spell

You can cast spells to greater effect.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, effects half again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate. For example, an empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1-1/2 for each missile). ..."

Healing as doing "half again as many hit points", since they tend to work much like WoF (with Heal and Cure Minor Wounds being the most notable exceptions) should be pretty clear. "Effects half again as many targets" is also unambiguous since most spells that effect a variable number of targets (or HD) do so based on caster level.

[Angelus_dead]

I'm trying to read the feat in a way where someone could interpret it as excluding the per level additional damage and I'm just not seeing it:

That's because the word "variable" applies equally to "1d8+1*level" and "10*level". The D&D authors confused "variable" with "random", when in reality "variable" is an antonym for "constant". This is illustrated by a further bit of rules: "Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables." To say "random variables" in that way clearly demonstrates that they intended the first usage of "variable" to imply randomness.

Note that an example can give you insight into the intention of a rule, but it is not rules-text itself.

[cinoaz]

This is why I love DDO and DnD for that matter, intellectual discussions on the etymology of words and corresponding definitions always leads to engaging and academia debates

lol

Yes, DDO is NOT DnD, sometime last year I finally succumbed to that harsh reality.

However, HARM acts as HEAL to undead. Thus, Empower Heal should apply to HARM in the same affect it does HEAL, if the game rules in DDO were consistent, which, to beat a dead horse, we all know they are not.

If I summon Undead as a Cleric, then, I should be able to HARM them with all the Feats and Enhancements available to me in the same manner HEAL is applied to living creatures, summoned, NPC or fellow gamer.

On the plus side, HARM is a great way to determine how many HPs creatures have, which, helps plan attacks. I created a nice little cheat sheet of CR to HP conversion for DDO, helps me plan my attacks and those of my fellow dungeoneers.....

Would be nice to be able to apply a bit more oomph to the HARM spell though, Clerics offensive casting is limited to begin with....

[ace_mason]

If you spec for harm and take. You can make it do some VERY nice crits. Superior potency works ith it and so does arcane lore.

[cinoaz]

Yes Crits in the ~500 range....with all the enhancements, Sup Potency VI and Sup Void Lore items.

but Empowered Healing Crits, if HARM was affected by empower healing, could get you in the ~1200 range.

[GlassCannon]

Is there a reason why HARM is not affected by Empower Healing, nor Empower, nor Maximize feats.

I always believed that HEAL and HARM were mirror images of each other, one positive and one negative energy.

Is this planned or just overlooked?

Likely overlooked, as monsters tend to use the ever loving HELL out of Harm in any and every possibility that they are granted access to the spell. It is currently one of their favorites, next to Greater Dispel(Caster Level 20+), Finger of Death, Enervate, Enervate and Enervate.

[Jendrak]

That's because the word "variable" applies equally to "1d8+1*level" and "10*level". The D&D authors confused "variable" with "random", when in reality "variable" is an antonym for "constant". This is illustrated by a further bit of rules: "Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables." To say "random variables" in that way clearly demonstrates that they intended the first usage of "variable" to imply randomness.

Note that an example can give you insight into the intention of a rule, but it is not rules-text itself.

WOW.....Rules lawyers even exist in ddo