It's a team game, remember.

[Khorban]

Won't help. Say my caster wants to play around with Curse and Slow spells [or any spells w/o and instantaneous affect]. Whats the point if your gaggle of dual wielding WOPs demolish the mob before I can even get my spell off?

Reverse it. My caster is incinerating everything before you can even close to melee range. Every. Single. Time. Having fun?

So - I decided to roll a Sroc... low level - no damage havin squishee because... I'ma glutton for punishment. I wanted to take a break from melee and be support.

So... i'm running around in the groups - bout to fire off enfeeble, MM - whatever else in my arsenal - and *POOF* - Spell Failure / Target doesn't exist... o.O HA HA HA

I'm sorry - my wifey just asked me why I was grinning - I told her cause I was writing this post.

I just find it funny when that happens. Soopah Sroc to the res... ummm... kk - the chest is where? here? kk thx! (next fight) ENNNNNFEEE........ ummmm... kk fo? right on!

hahahah *shrugs*

Fun is Perception and Perception is Reality

This is just a game... PnP is serious - Perma-death bites... unless your DM doesn't play that way.

[Bracosius]

Quoting would make the post far to long so these responses will be by name:


Angelus_dead- It was a great video and of course I saw the point. But what you did not mention is that BMX-Biker is lvl 4 and Angel Summoner is lvl 16. That is why BMX is not able to contribute.

IgorUnchained- Is that sarcasm I detect? I am sorry to break it to you but my reason is correct and yours are not. I am on Ghallanda and I guarantee that any mishmash combination oddlived builds he will be welcome into any group. And tons of other players are in the same boat. I only single him out because he was one of the first people I have seen play a character that makes people go hmm. (for the record I am not an oddlived fanboi, I am not in his guild, and really don't even know him, but his reputation precedes him. )

Thrudh- I will give you the satisfaction that it is possible to unbalance a game, but if your going to use examples could they be more logical and plausible. The reason I am unhappy about the paladin capstone situation is because it seems to me it was toned down due to player feedback (whining) and I think it was totally unnecessary. I would have complained equally for other capstones being changed due to players complaining.

krud- You have a ligitamate gripe about S&B. I feel it would be solved with sheilds that were more powerful along the lines of greensteel. Both my melee are S&B and I still play them and still find groups. I don't think the answer is to make TWF weaker. If your not having fun with S&B, grab another weapon and change feats or re-roll entirely.


Everyone reading-

I will let everyone in on a little secret. If you are in a group and they demand a specific class or weapon, drop group. Good players will allow any class with any gear into thier group. If you join a group and ask what should I bring, the good players always answer the same, bring what's fun.

The good players have done just about every quest in game with "non-standard" groups.

[Frodo_Lives]

I was going to do long post dealing point by point, but you know it's just not worth it.

Balancing issues are not due to jealousy from the majority of the posters who advocate changes or nerfs. It is talked about because they think it will be good for the game overall. Anyone who thinks that nerfs are being called for because of jealousy or insecurity or any of that **** goes looses all credibility with me.

More balance between classes equals more viable options on building a character and playstyle. That is a good thing.

When one form of combat or one class/multiclass is mathematically far superior then the rest it is time to look at things. Sometimes the easiest fix is a slight nerf. You change this game with a scalpel not a scythe.

[Khorban]

Everyone reading-

I will let everyone in on a little secret. If you are in a group and they demand a specific class or weapon, drop group. Good players will allow any class with any gear into thier group. If you join a group and ask what should I bring, the good players always answer the same, bring what's fun.

The good players have done just about every quest in game with "non-standard" groups.

Sorry - I had to quote this...

It just reiterates what I stated above. D&D isn't about PowerGaming - It's about having Fun with your current Group.

If that's your idea of Fun, more power to ya - cause while you're stressing out about who you should bring in - I'm having adult beverages with my group and finishing the quest while you try to get yours started.

[IgorUnchained]

IgorUnchained- Is that sarcasm I detect? I am sorry to break it to you but my reason is correct and yours are not. I am on Ghallanda and I guarantee that any mishmash combination oddlived builds he will be welcome into any group. And tons of other players are in the same boat. I only single him out because he was one of the first people I have seen play a character that makes people go hmm. (for the record I am not an oddlived fanboi, I am not in his guild, and really don't even know him, but his reputation precedes him. )

I am with you on everything but the "the only reason people dont get into parties is because they are disliked by the starholder" point. The rest was directed at other posters, which I should have made clearer. Thanks for not blowing up and for providing a response...I could get used to that! (but I wont hold my breath around here).

I have never had a toon on Ghallanda, but on the two servers I have played on quite a bit (Argo and a bit on Khyber) you have very little between Korthos LFMs and Shroud/Hound runs. I dont spend much time on Korthos, although I dont skip it with my lowbies...I tend to solo through it all on normal to make it quick and still get those decent end rewards. The Shroud/Hound runs are where the "middle school clique" mentality comes in....."no noobs", "must have X weapon", "my friends list is smaller than my ignore list", etc.
I doubt it is REALLY the fault of the shunned LFGer that he didnt get in.....sure seems it is alot more to do with the mentality behind the people holding the star. Noone who dislikes me, on the forum or in game, has ever run the Shroud or Hound with me. All of my threats of blacklisting comes from forum disputes with people I havent and wouldnt run with anyway.

I agree with you 1000% that this is a team game and it should be viewed as such (much more than it is)....but I wholeheartedly disagree with your placing of blame for who forgets that point. You can look at the people who are not including others (and are proud of it) and see for yourself if they are the "DBs" that everyone is talking about....or if it is the "creme de la creme" of our chosen servers. Dont be surprised when you find out I am right.

[krud]

krud- You have a ligitamate gripe about S&B. I feel it would be solved with sheilds that were more powerful along the lines of greensteel. Both my melee are S&B and I still play them and still find groups. I don't think the answer is to make TWF weaker. If your not having fun with S&B, grab another weapon and change feats or re-roll entirely.

But it doesn't stop at just S&B, it goes the other way too.

lets take melee for example. I think it would be fair to say that a TWF plain ftr is probably probably your average melee character, average to good AC, and good dps. Let's put him at level 16. In terms of relative performance it probably looks something like this, give or take a level here and there:

S&B pally = 12
s&B ftr = 12
THF ftr = 13
THF barb = 14
TWF ftr = 16
TWF barb =18
pure rgr = 18
rgr/mnk = 20

It's obvious that s&b, pally's and ftrs need help, and some of them are getting it. They might end up where they should be. Now when it comes to TWF it's clearly better, and there is nothing wrong with that, but there are some combinations that are just way better. Most of the nerfs people talk about would bring them down from 20 to something like 18, yet they still end up at the top of the bunch. When people say nerfs are needed, they just want to narrow the range a little, and center it where the game currently is. Some people will always want to be 4 levels higher than the rest, and view anything that tries to limit them from doing so as a bad thing. The problem is that they can't see beyond their own character, and look at the game as a whole. They see their character as the center of the universe, and that's the level where everyone else should be.

[rnor6084]

Quoting would make the post far to long so these responses will be by name:


Angelus_dead- It was a great video and of course I saw the point. But what you did not mention is that BMX-Biker is lvl 4 and Angel Summoner is lvl 16. That is why BMX is not able to contribute.

IgorUnchained- Is that sarcasm I detect? I am sorry to break it to you but my reason is correct and yours are not. I am on Ghallanda and I guarantee that any mishmash combination oddlived builds he will be welcome into any group. And tons of other players are in the same boat. I only single him out because he was one of the first people I have seen play a character that makes people go hmm. (for the record I am not an oddlived fanboi, I am not in his guild, and really don't even know him, but his reputation precedes him. )

Thrudh- I will give you the satisfaction that it is possible to unbalance a game, but if your going to use examples could they be more logical and plausible. The reason I am unhappy about the paladin capstone situation is because it seems to me it was toned down due to player feedback (whining) and I think it was totally unnecessary. I would have complained equally for other capstones being changed due to players complaining.

krud- You have a ligitamate gripe about S&B. I feel it would be solved with sheilds that were more powerful along the lines of greensteel. Both my melee are S&B and I still play them and still find groups. I don't think the answer is to make TWF weaker. If your not having fun with S&B, grab another weapon and change feats or re-roll entirely.


Everyone reading-

I will let everyone in on a little secret. If you are in a group and they demand a specific class or weapon, drop group. Good players will allow any class with any gear into thier group. If you join a group and ask what should I bring, the good players always answer the same, bring what's fun.

The good players have done just about every quest in game with "non-standard" groups.

This is perfectly said.


[QUOTE=Fenrisulven6;2029294]And you like it that way?


Everyone that plays with me knows the deal. Especially my guildies. Everyone that plays with me also knows i am a solid and smart player. over the past three years of casual playing ive learned how to survive without the best equipment.

[Bracosius]

I am with you on everything but the "the only reason people dont get into parties is because they are disliked by the starholder" point. The rest was directed at other posters, which I should have made clearer. Thanks for not blowing up and for providing a response...I could get used to that! (but I wont hold my breath around here).

I have never had a toon on Ghallanda, but on the two servers I have played on quite a bit (Argo and a bit on Khyber) you have very little between Korthos LFMs and Shroud/Hound runs. I dont spend much time on Korthos, although I dont skip it with my lowbies...I tend to solo through it all on normal to make it quick and still get those decent end rewards. The Shroud/Hound runs are where the "middle school clique" mentality comes in....."no noobs", "must have X weapon", "my friends list is smaller than my ignore list", etc.
I doubt it is REALLY the fault of the shunned LFGer that he didnt get in.....sure seems it is alot more to do with the mentality behind the people holding the star. Noone who dislikes me, on the forum or in game, has ever run the Shroud or Hound with me. All of my threats of blacklisting comes from forum disputes with people I havent and wouldnt run with anyway.

I agree with you 1000% that this is a team game and it should be viewed as such (much more than it is)....but I wholeheartedly disagree with your placing of blame for who forgets that point. You can look at the people who are not including others (and are proud of it) and see for yourself if they are the "DBs" that everyone is talking about....or if it is the "creme de la creme" of our chosen servers. Dont be surprised when you find out I am right.

I have a similiar but somewhat different perspective on the grouping situation. I also see the groups that require a wop, or only want a barbarian because they need dps. I never join these groups even if I do fit the requirement. When I see them it tells me the leader is a very poor player and is looking for a powergamer to give him a free ride. It is the same as a group that advertises "The Pit-need guide".

My comment about if you are not allowed in the group, it is because your not liked, is from my experience on Ghallanda. Many LFM's that go up on Ghallanda are for any class. There may be 4 rangers and a pally in the group and it is still open for anyone to join. I find these some of the funnest groups because at times there is more of a challenge with no cleric or caster. And although we do have the "must have wop" or "evasion tanks only" they are certainly the minority. I am sorry that your server is not so open to the fun aspect of the game. Hopefully you can find a good guild.

But it doesn't stop at just S&B, it goes the other way too.

lets take melee for example. I think it would be fair to say that a TWF plain ftr is probably probably your average melee character, average to good AC, and good dps. Let's put him at level 16. In terms of relative performance it probably looks something like this, give or take a level here and there:

S&B pally = 12
s&B ftr = 12
THF ftr = 13
THF barb = 14
TWF ftr = 16
TWF barb =18
pure rgr = 18
rgr/mnk = 20

It's obvious that s&b, pally's and ftrs need help, and some of them are getting it. They might end up where they should be. Now when it comes to TWF it's clearly better, and there is nothing wrong with that, but there are some combinations that are just way better. Most of the nerfs people talk about would bring them down from 20 to something like 18, yet they still end up at the top of the bunch. When people say nerfs are needed, they just want to narrow the range a little, and center it where the game currently is. Some people will always want to be 4 levels higher than the rest, and view anything that tries to limit them from doing so as a bad thing. The problem is that they can't see beyond their own character, and look at the game as a whole. They see their character as the center of the universe, and that's the level where everyone else should be.

I don't completly agree with everything here, but it begs the question and one of the reasons I started the thread.

Do you think it was necessary to drop a d6 and make the extra damage holy instead of pure good for the Paladin capstone?

I can assume the answer considering where you ranked pallys on your chart, but I may be wrong.

[krud]

I don't completly agree with everything here, but it begs the question and one of the reasons I started the thread.

Do you think it was necessary to drop a d6 and make the extra damage holy instead of pure good for the Paladin capstone?

I can assume the answer considering where you ranked pallys on your chart, but I may be wrong.

It's too early to tell how it will play out. At least with an open mind toward nerfs, if it did end up too powerful in one form or another, it wouldn't be a catastrophe if they removed a d6. Others would kick and scream like a baby who lost his pacifier at such a notion.

[Gunga]

Sorry - I had to quote this...

It just reiterates what I stated above. D&D isn't about PowerGaming - It's about having Fun with your current Group.

If that's your idea of Fun, more power to ya - cause while you're stressing out about who you should bring in - I'm having adult beverages with my group and finishing the quest while you try to get yours started.

I'll bet you stick your tongue out when you aim.

[Angelus_dead]

Do you think it was necessary to drop a d6 and make the extra damage holy instead of pure good for the Paladin capstone?

It wasn't necessary, just like almost nothing in a video game is necessary. But it's better than the earlier version.

[paulfrank]

I say nerf this thread.

[dopey69]

I disagree with just about all of it.

never ever seen an lfm saying no monks on T mabey you on wrong server

[Gunga]

My LFMs don't say No Monks, but, well....

[Thrudh]

Thrudh- I will give you the satisfaction that it is possible to unbalance a game, but if your going to use examples could they be more logical and plausible. The reason I am unhappy about the paladin capstone situation is because it seems to me it was toned down due to player feedback (whining) and I think it was totally unnecessary. I would have complained equally for other capstones being changed due to players complaining.

I understand your point of view... I don't think you should call it whining though. Maybe some people were just whining from jealousy but most of the long-term posters here posted thinking about game balance.

Guess what? I have a up-and-coming pure paladin. The capstone as written was so good that I knew I was going to stay pure. The capstone as changed now has me wondering which is better... staying pure for the capstone or splashing monk or rogue for evasion...

See... I think the situation now is more balanced... The devs have mostly done a good job with balance... Even if I decide to go for evasion instead of the paladin capstone, I'm still not sure if I should go monk or rogue...

That's very good design... Neither a monk or rogue splash is inherently better for a paladin... It's a tough choice... Just like giving up evasion for the capstone is a tough choice... That's good game-design...

Now I respect that you think the capstone as written wasn't overpowering... We disagree on that part... But my objection to it as written had nothing to do with jealousy (I have a pure paladin too, remember!)... I just thought it was overpowering because it made my choice too easy... It was so good (to me) that splashing for evasion didn't seem equal anymore.

Others might have found evasion still better than the original capstone. Maybe the original capstone was fine and balanced. Post in that thread and maybe the devs will change it again... maybe find a middle ground...

[Gunga]

I understand your point of view... I don't think you should call it whining though. Maybe some people were just whining from jealousy but most of the long-term posters here posted thinking about game balance.

Guess what? I have a up-and-coming pure paladin. The capstone as written was so good that I knew I was going to stay pure. The capstone as changed now has me wondering which is better... staying pure for the capstone or splashing monk or rogue for evasion...

See... I think the situation now is more balanced... The devs have mostly done a good job with balance... Even if I decide to go for evasion instead of the paladin capstone, I'm still not sure if I should go monk or rogue...

That's very good design... Neither a monk or rogue splash is inherently better for a paladin... It's a tough choice... Just like giving up evasion for the capstone is a tough choice... That's good game-design...

Now I respect that you think the capstone as written wasn't overpowering... We disagree on that part... But my objection to it as written had nothing to do with jealousy (I have a pure paladin too, remember!)... I just thought it was overpowering because it made my choice too easy... It was so good (to me) that splashing for evasion didn't seem equal anymore.

Others might have found evasion still better than the original capstone. Maybe the original capstone was fine and balanced. Post in that thread and maybe the devs will change it again... maybe find a middle ground...

Just as you think that making multiclass options equal or better than Capstone is balancing to the game, I think that it's holding the game back. The Capstone should far exceed a splash of a class or two. Strong pure classes (Capstones) promote the strength of the class and grouping together with other strong classes. Which, I think, is the point of this thread. Notice the OP's sig characters...

[Angelus_dead]

That's very good design... Neither a monk or rogue splash is inherently better for a paladin... It's a tough choice... Just like giving up evasion for the capstone is a tough choice... That's good game-design...

Incorrect: it's not "very good" design, and not even "good" design.

Attempting to balance against monk2 and rog2 by adding power to pal20 is a poor approach, because it can only possibly work for level 20 characters. While the characters are on their way up and advancing towards 20, the pure-paladin builds gain nothing from the pal20 capstone. They're staying pure for the hope of getting a nice ability later, but this makes them underpowered compared to the other members of their party (which might include monk-splashed pallies)

It's bad game design to have characters who are only balanced at one certain total level; the other levels matter too.

Once they all reach 20, things might be balanced for a while. But then what'll happen someday if the cap goes up again to 22 or 22? The splashed pallies will become pal20/monk2 and train the capstone. Would the devs have to come up with another capstone for pal22 that's even better?

[Gunga]

Would the devs have to come up with another capstone for pal22 that's even better?

Nah. If they wanted to keep the Capstone as a pure class reward, than you would lose it when you mulitclass.

EDIT: I wouldn't object to Capstone II....

[Angelus_dead]

Nah. If they wanted to keep the Capstone as a pure class reward, than you would lose it when you mulitclass.

There's a possibility the devs will go that way, although the currently published capstones don't use that system.

However, if it's a good idea to make capstones which you lose if you take any levels in another class, then they don't need to restrict them to level 20. They could allow them at level 10 or 15 or whatever, which would alleviate the problem of capstone-path characters being underpowered before level 20.

[Taojeff]

Pretty much everything Aesop said, with one addition: when game balance goes off the rails, the only solution is a campaign wipe. If you hate "nerfs", you're going to really enjoy starting over from scratch.

You are correct. And a campaign wipe in an MMO is close down the servers go home.

You need to understand this, and just stop whining about getting nerfed

Turbine is trying to increase there revenue by making the game more accessible to the casual gamer and drawing in the players. The game needs to be balanced for this, there should not be some super steep learning curve and the difference between the have's and have not's cannot be to great.

It has been my experience in 8 or so mmo's that you use more player base do to game imbalance issues then nerfs. In fact most people who play mmo's are familar with nerfs. Nothing is perfect the first time.