It's a team game, remember.

[Zenako]

If I am in a group, I want any mob seeing our bard to roll a Fortitude save (DC = Perform +d20) or turn into a platinum statue, which gives you 1d100 plat each time you damage it in melee.

Nerf alert... it only can be sung ONCE the mobs are fascinated...that should quiet the dissenters, not that it really matters since you get 95% of them anyway the first time. Kinda like the Suggestion song, only now you suggest that instead of having to kill them and THEN loot the chest, they just hand over the goods right now and avoid the messy middle part...

[Bracosius]

At the end of the day, it's all about results

Rolling up Angel Summoner now.

Ya know, It just occurred to me....

You can be a Awesome person and get groups all the time... It doesnt matter what weapons ya have or what armor ya have... If your fun to play with, people want you in their group.....

But the only way to get a group if you're a db is to have uber stuff. Some people tolerate db-edness if you have a WoP....

If WoP Gets changed, db's may have a hard time getting groups......

I call shenanigans. Where are you going to find more than ONE pure paladin logged on at any given time? Let alone 30 to 40?

The amount of genius in this thread brings a small tear to my eye.

[Thrudh]

Why are people on the forums asking for a nerf to thier fellow players on a daily basis?

Because if some builds can get 80 AC and full DPS, then the devs balance encounters for people with 80 AC. This means every other build gets hit 100% of the time even with a 60 AC.

If it's a team game, maybe we should make so everyone can contribute instead of just one "uber" person.

3. Turbine makes the game more difficult because of the imbalance of xyz.

It's a game, it will never be perfectly balanced. If a certain build/class is the best, play it. If a weapon is the best, use it. If you don't have it, play more. The people who play the most have the best items. Don't play 30% of the time they do and expect to have the same items.

So instead of at least trying to balance the game, your solution is for everyone to play the exact same "best" build?

Yeah, nice... That makes for a good game.

The DDO devs have actually done a very good job balancing this game. In most cases, there are no "best" builds. You contribute very well with all classes. We see plenty of fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, etc.

However, Ranger/monk splashes are dangerously close to being a "best" class... being so much above the others that everyone will need/want to play them. THAT is what we are trying to avoid. You, on the other hand, think they would be a great game if everyone was a ranger/monk. Very few people would agree with you and the game would die.

Up until the latest mod, w/p weapons were better than DPS, but not ridiculously so... The balance is skewed... They now kill like 5x faster in certain quests... CON damage versus DPS is unbalanced... Do I think it needs to be nerfed? Not yet... It's not all quests, just a few.. I do complain and point out the problem to make sure the devs understand the issue so that Mod 9 quests aren't even more imbalanced.

You on the other hand, think everyone should just switch to TWF wounding weapons. Nice. All other attack forms disappear, and the game gets boring.

We ask for balance so we can maintain choices... This games rocks because there are so many different possible builds out there, and many of them are very viable. Balance is about making sure that remains true.

[Missing_Minds]

I call shenanigans. Where are you going to find more than ONE pure paladin logged on at any given time? Let alone 30 to 40?

Korthos. lvl 1 pali.. hey, its a pure pali.

Sorry, AD, but I had to tease.

But honestly, I know of 1 pure pali right off the top of my head (among the 3 pali players, and one of the other two may be pure as well. can't remember) They exist more than what you realize.

[Zenako]

I've got one, and I know a few others do too.

[Steiner-Davion]

A game balance issue occurs when one player can't compete with another for reason xyz. Don't you realize we are not competing with each other?

It is not about competing with each othe. It is about playing a fun game. If the game is balanced and designed in such a way that only peopl who do nothing but play DDO can have fun playing, and by fun I mean not be driven insane by the futility of trying to complete a quest with inadequate attributes, skills, and gear, then we my friend have serious disagreement as to what fun and balanced mean. In otherwords we are competing for fun. You can have fun, but I can't. And what kind of fun will you be having when there is no one left to play DDO with but yourself or when they are forced to close the game down because they only have your subscription left?

Ironically, I'm willing to bet that I'll be playing th game a lot longer then you will be.

We are all in groups on the same team. The more powerful your teammate is the better it is for you.

Only in the limited context that you provided in your OP, quoted here.

Unless of course your the jealous type, then you may want to come and complain in the forums.

It has nothing ot do with Jealousy my friend. And if you do, then you have some serious insecurity issues to deal with.

Here is a FAQ to those responding to save me some time:

The fact that you posted this FAQ, lessons your argument, and strengthens the hypothesis I jsut put forward.

[Bracosius]

Because if some builds can get 80 AC and full DPS, then the devs balance encounters for people with 80 AC. This means every other build gets hit 100% of the time even with a 60 AC.

If it's a team game, maybe we should make so everyone can contribute instead of just one "uber" person.



So instead of at least trying to balance the game, your solution is for everyone to play the exact same "best" build?

Yeah, nice... That makes for a good game.

Yeah, lets read into everything so extreme that it is now rediculous. That should help your argument. I sometimes make statements and assume common sense. I will be more specific for you.

People should play what they find fun. Some people play casters, some melee, some clerics, some have all kinds of characters. The comment is directed to the people that want classes they don't play to be weaker because they feel obsolete with there build choice. If your build is not fun because it is not the most powerful in the game then you should roll up a new character. Your example also only seems to assume that groups will be 100% melee classes. I am betting that even if everyone played the exact same melee build because it was the best, you would probably still have some casters, clerics, and rogues running around.

Regarding the issue of 80 AC and full dps. Your average player will not easily be able to build such a character. And just because it is possible does not mean the dev's build the game around the most powerful character possible. Give them more credit then that. There is a desparity between casual gamers and power gamers. There always will be, there always should be.

It is not about competing with each othe. It is about playing a fun game. If the game is balanced and designed in such a way that only peopl who do nothing but play DDO can have fun playing, and by fun I mean not be driven insane by the futility of trying to complete a quest with inadequate attributes, skills, and gear, then we my friend have serious disagreement as to what fun and balanced mean. In otherwords we are competing for fun. You can have fun, but I can't. And what kind of fun will you be having when there is no one left to play DDO with but yourself or when they are forced to close the game down because they only have your subscription left?

Ironically, I'm willing to bet that I'll be playing th game a lot longer then you will be.

Only in the limited context that you provided in your OP, quoted here.

It has nothing ot do with Jealousy my friend. And if you do, then you have some serious insecurity issues to deal with.

The fact that you posted this FAQ, lessons your argument, and strengthens the hypothesis I jsut put forward.

Why is it that responses seem to assume I am a have? I do not have a ranger/monk, I do not have dual wops, I do not have an AC over 60. I am not argueing in favor of power because I will lose anything, I am argueing in favor of power because it makes the game fun. I like having a dual wop wielding ranger/monk in my group. I like having an 80 AC intimitank. Maybe I am biased because I play a cleric and can usually tell a characters power level by the resources I use.

It doesn't mean the quests can't be completed by a severly underpowered pug, they can. They are just easier and quicker for powergamers.

[Angelus_dead]

People should play what they find fun.

That is true; and it contradicts everything else you said. In case you didn't understand the example, BMX Bandit was not having fun.

Why is it that responses seem to assume I am a have?

Because you wrote the words "I have a WOP".

You intended for them to be read as a hypothetical response from another person, but your formatting and punctuation was pretty garbled, leading some people to have trouble following the intention.

[Gunga]

You can have fun, but I can't.

I deleted your attempts at being clever. Let's just cut to the quick, shall we?

What imbalances do you currently experience in game? In your own words please, sans noncleverness.

[IgorUnchained]

God....great post!

Now I know why it is hard to get into groups...because everyone hates me!
For a while, I had heard that it was because multiclassed toons are gimped, rangers dont have enough DPS, people are NooBs, they dont know their own way, they dont have the right gear/spells, noone can wait for a full party to begin a mission, and half of the LFMs are for high level raids.
I sure am glad I wasted the 10 minutes to read this pap!

Old timers who enjoy the smell of their own flatulence get alot of mileage on these forums.
I sure hope they continue to school the rest of us on all things DDO.

[cpito]

Quite frankly they pull my non-uber rear through the quests. No nerfs for anyone please.

Ain't that the truth?

The only reason Peech is successful is cuz she knows to hide behind people like Hurry

[Thrudh]

Look, you'll agree that is IS possible to unbalance the game right? You're upset with the paladin capstone change, right?

Imagine if the paladin capstone had been 50d6 extra damage against evil creatures... And a bunch of us said, "Whoa! That's way too much! That will unbalance the game... everyone will want to be a pure paladin!"

Would you agree that that change would be unbalancing and bad for the game?? Or would you say, "Hey, if it's the best build, then suck it up and roll a pure paladin!". Would you say, "I don't mind, I'd love to have a pure paladin in my groups. It makes every quest easier to have a guy who does 3x the damage of everyone else."

If you DO agree that 50d6 would be too much, that it would be bad for the game to unbalance one character class too much... then you agree with us...

We just disagree on the scale.

You think 80 AC is not unbalancing, and we think it is. (What if one class and one class only could achieve 120 AC while maintaining max DPS?).

But do you understand why it's important to balance the game? And why it's not about jealousy? The game would die if one class was 20 times better than the other classes, right??

What we're arguing about is that we think it's bad if a class is 1.2x or 1.5x better than every other class, while you may think that is not that big a difference.

That's a legitimate argument. You may be right that 1.5x better isn't big enough to unbalance the game. Let's discuss THAT.

But don't tell us that we're just jealous and hate our fellow player. We care about the game just as much as you, and want it to succeed as well.

[feynman]

Why are people on the forums asking for a nerf to thier fellow players on a daily basis?

"It is not enough to succeed; others must fail" - Gore Vidal

[krud]

Why are people on the forums asking for a nerf to thier fellow players on a daily basis?

I just don't get it. If I am in a group I want every member to be as powerful as possible. I don't care if I lead the kill count, I don't care if my armor doesn't look the coolest, I don't care if I can't crit for 800. But apparently many of you are jealous of those who do.

And the canned response is "I am not jealous, it is a game balance issue and I am trying to help the game." I call poppycock.

A game balance issue occurs when one player can't compete with another for reason xyz. Don't you realize we are not competing with each other? We are all in groups on the same team. The more powerful your teammate is the better it is for you. Unless of course your the jealous type, then you may want to come and complain in the forums.

Here is a FAQ to those responding to save me some time:


1. But a group wouldn't let me in because I don't have a WOP.

That group sucks and you would have failed anyway if the leader thinks wops are necessary, be happy you avoided that group.


2. I have a WOP and always lead the kill count, I am not jealous and still think every class needs to be nerfed.

These people are still always going to lead the kill count, they will have the best gear and the best build. They want everyone nerfed because they know something you don't, they will always be more powerful.


3. Turbine makes the game more difficult because of the imbalance of xyz.

It's a game, it will never be perfectly balanced. If a certain build/class is the best, play it. If a weapon is the best, use it. If you don't have it, play more. The people who play the most have the best items. Don't play 30% of the time they do and expect to have the same items.


4. It doesn't follow the pen and paper DnD rules.

I started with first edition way back when, and the most important rule was to have fun. The DM had the freedom to make up anything he wanted to make the game entertaining. Turbine is our DM, let them make it entertainig.


5. I can't find a group because I don't have build xyz and wepon xyz.

It's not your build or your weapons, it's you. People don't like you, that's why you can't find a group. Some of the best players in this game have started some of the strangest builds. They always find groups because no matter what they play they are good and an asset to any party.


6. Your just posting this because your bitter that they changed the paladin capstone.

True, you get a gold star. It sickens me that people whining actually convinced a dev to weaken a class.


7. Brac your wrong because I said so and I post on the forums everyday.

Epic fail, log off life.

That would be all fine and dandy if the most powerful wasn't limited to just 1 or 2 builds. What if the most powerful a particular character can be is still not good enough, even when properly geared? *cough* "S&B" *cough* Sometimes it's easier to nerf one thing than try to build up five different things, not to mention trying to adjust mobs accordingly.

Here's a better way to look at it: What if in the current mod most characters were capped at 16, but a few particular builds could level to 20, and a few others capped out at 12? That's the kind of disparity that exists. Should turbine bring everyone up to 20 even though the game is designed for level 16? Wouldn't it be better to adjust those few outliers back to the appropriate level?

[Fenrisulven6]

Quite frankly they pull my non-uber rear through the quests.

And you like it that way?

People should play what they find fun. Some people play casters, some melee, some clerics, some have all kinds of characters. The comment is directed to the people that want classes they don't play to be weaker because they feel obsolete with there build choice. If your build is not fun because it is not the most powerful in the game then you should roll up a new character.

Won't help. Say my caster wants to play around with Curse and Slow spells [or any spells w/o and instantaneous affect]. Whats the point if your gaggle of dual wielding WOPs demolish the mob before I can even get my spell off?

Reverse it. My caster is incinerating everything before you can even close to melee range. Every. Single. Time. Having fun?

[Coldest]

Because if some builds can get 80 AC and full DPS, then the devs balance encounters for people with 80 AC. This means every other build gets hit 100% of the time even with a 60 AC.

If it's a team game, maybe we should make so everyone can contribute instead of just one "uber" person.



So instead of at least trying to balance the game, your solution is for everyone to play the exact same "best" build?

Yeah, nice... That makes for a good game.

The DDO devs have actually done a very good job balancing this game. In most cases, there are no "best" builds. You contribute very well with all classes. We see plenty of fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, etc.

However, Ranger/monk splashes are dangerously close to being a "best" class... being so much above the others that everyone will need/want to play them. THAT is what we are trying to avoid. You, on the other hand, think they would be a great game if everyone was a ranger/monk. Very few people would agree with you and the game would die.

Up until the latest mod, w/p weapons were better than DPS, but not ridiculously so... The balance is skewed... They now kill like 5x faster in certain quests... CON damage versus DPS is unbalanced... Do I think it needs to be nerfed? Not yet... It's not all quests, just a few.. I do complain and point out the problem to make sure the devs understand the issue so that Mod 9 quests aren't even more imbalanced.

You on the other hand, think everyone should just switch to TWF wounding weapons. Nice. All other attack forms disappear, and the game gets boring.

We ask for balance so we can maintain choices... This games rocks because there are so many different possible builds out there, and many of them are very viable. Balance is about making sure that remains true.

You missed the boat by such a wide margin that I must now and always refer to you as plow.

[Angelus_dead]

That's the kind of disparity that exists. Should turbine bring everyone up to 20 even though the game is designed for level 16? Wouldn't it be better to adjust those few outliers back to the appropriate level?

Here is a comment on that situation from the designer of some other game:

So we must have a really good reason for nerfs.

Usually the reason is that we have absolute, not relative targets. If you are in a raid and someone is doing 8000 dps, sure the "fun" solution is to buff every other class up to that point. If we end up over-buffing someone to 8500 dps, well then we can go back and give everyone else additional buffs. Maybe at level 90 everyone will be doing 12,000 dps, but inflation is inflation, right? Right? Of course we'd have to buff all the monsters too. We'd probably have to buff gear and talents because otherwise their contributions might seem paltry (I get 20 more dps when I do 8000 dps? lol.). In short the changes necessary to avoid a nerf just spiral out of control.

[Junts]

And you like it that way?



Won't help. Say my caster wants to play around with Curse and Slow spells [or any spells w/o and instantaneous affect]. Whats the point if your gaggle of dual wielding WOPs demolish the mob before I can even get my spell off?

Reverse it. My caster is incinerating everything before you can even close to melee range. Every. Single. Time. Having fun?

sounds like gianthold, and everyone love those quests

from levels 8-13, the main purpose of melee characters is to obstruct the mobs with aggro from hitting sorcerors until firewall kills them


curse and slow are bad examples because they are spells that, as angelus has pointed out before, are by nature not going to be that effective when cast on mobs; they are effective on mobs that for whatever reason must or will live for quite a while (which is why people usually curse and debuff the stormreaver and some other mobs, though they tend to be immune to slow).

A good example for just casters: my sorceror always runs with heighten on, so flesh to stone and finger of death have the same spell point cost. they are also both fortitude saves cast at an equal dc

I cast flesh to stone relatively rarely; it is useful for quests like tomb of the blighted, inferno of the damned, and gianthold tor, where its very useful to immobilize mobs without killing them (for quest mechanical reasons, like the arcanes that spawn in blighted or the way acolytes of flame work in inferno)

For any other purpose, finger of death is superior, because for the same save and spell cost, I can just make the mob go away entirely.

Slow and curse suffer from similar kinds of problems; they aren't worth casting unless the mob will make a lot of attacks or has to be kept alive, in whichcase they are very useful. But the nature of ddo and the quantity of mobs in it and the rate at which they are intended to die makes those spells bad to cast on groups of trash mobs .. even if you are running solo!

[Angelus_dead]

from levels 8-13, the main purpose of melee characters is to obstruct the mobs with aggro from hitting sorcerors until firewall kills them

Bzzt! Wrong, their main purpose is that having them in the party makes chests generate more loot than if the slots were empty.

[Junts]

Bzzt! Wrong, their main purpose is that having them in the party makes chests generate more loot than if the slots were empty.

haha

Nah, its much harder to solo things like delera's elite at 8 or trial by fire at 10 than it is with some people to shieldwall in a few places, if for no other reason than that something will eventually start spamming hold person at you.
Everyone rolls 1s eventually.

Melees make it not cost pots!