ac is broken, fix shields

[Riggs]

Without getting into a long debate rehashing the other 150 threads about ac, there is a simple balancing act that can help.

Shields in D&D are weak. DDO is not at fault for simply porting over the rules, but shields stink.

Any other game, a 4 -5 foot tall hunk of metal your hiding behind would do more than add 4 ac. Shields in history were used because they were useful and could stop a lot of incoming attacks.

Shields in D&D do not give enough ac to matter really compared to just doing more damage. Also, parrying is an option in some games that isnt in D&D. While tempest shield bonus is a similar idea (deflecting attackings with a second weapon) it really should be an option for all two weapon fighters not just rangers.

So the easy fix is to not only reduce all the stacking dodge bonuses that are driving ac up too high compared to others (icy should never have been added to the game), shields should give a +2 ac over what they are now.

So light shields +2 or +3, heavy +4, and tower +6. Blocking witha shield should be more than +2 ac, a full defence should be +4 more at least.
And blocking while two weapon fighting should give a better blocking bonus.

This would correct some of the imbalance that currently exists between the naked ranger/monks not only having twice the damage of a sword and board type, but that they also have better ac.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Shields in D&D are weak. DDO is not at fault for simply porting over the rules, but shieldsstink.

Actually, DDO is at fault. Because of DDO's hyper inflated Dex scores, easily available protection and Armor items, and fairly common dodge items, the AC you can get to without a shield is insanely high. As a propotion of that, the shield just hasn't kept pace. The shield AC SHOULD make a difference to a tank. While I normally think we need to stay to D&D rules, I think something must be done to improve shield if you expect anyone to carry one except for a minute of blocking in specialized cases like SBing the Reaver to get a charge.

[smatt]

Good luck here Riggs...... It appears they believe that free-flowing super-duper ranger/monk things should be able to out AC, out self buff, and out DPS all at the same time, any shield holder period..... Save for the rare Pali.... I thought perhaps a way to solve the problem was to give shield users a scaled additonal DR per level enhancement or feat system at a reasonable cost.....

It's apparent though that sword and board with the exception of the Intimi-pali is dead.... Er, just not as effective as ANY other melee class out there in any area period.... Might as well build a monk


Doom to my old orginal 28 point mutt/batman junk build, who's 1 quest short of 100% favor, has 4 +3 tomes, uncountable shroud, and raid loot items.. Dooooooooommmm

[dameron]

Shield blocking with a tower shield is supposed to give total cover in PnP.

That's an incredibly powerful ability, especially against ranged attacks and spells that that must target and individual instead of an area.

It probably couldn't come directly into DDO that way, but shield blocking with at tower shield should be significantly bumped from the little bit of extra DR it gives now.

[Memnir]

A large portion of the playing community agrees with this.
Problem is that the Devs either don't agree - or flat out don't care.

[Braegan]

I always agreed the shield users could use a boost. Keeping in line with pnp rules the inclusion of Phalanx Fighting Feat would help.

Phalanx Fighting (from Complete Warrior, 3.5)

Prereq: Profciency with a heavy shield, base attack bonus +1

Benefit: If you are using a heavy shield and a light weapon, you gain a +1 bonus to your armor class. In addition, if you are within 5 feet of an ally who is also using a heavy shield and a light weapon and who also has this feat, you may form a shield wall. A shield wall provides an extra +2 to AC and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves to all eligible characters participating in the shield wall.

That could be a nice start without losing the pnp flavor. A step further could be Greater Phalanx Fighting perhaps increasing the numbers to +2 and +4 & +2 respectively.

Additionally some named shields that gave a higher than normal ac (perhaps raid loot) would be a nice touch.

[artvan_delet]

To add insult to injury, the shields out there are lame. The only good shield is sorrel (+5 with +4 resist and protection-although the protection is fairly common with mineral 2 items, so really its only +5 with +4 resist), and that requires a full shield piece set, which is not easy to come by. The levik's shield is nice if you have TS proficiency and it drops, which it doesnt seem to do much.
No greensteel shields, no dragontouched shields, no +5 shields with additional +3 or +4 dodge bonuses, or damage absorption, or even +5 with GFL. The shields that are out there don't compare to the goodies you can get with two greensteel items. Sorry if this wasn the intent of this post. Here's hoping for S/B help in mod 9.

[Marabias]

Add Greensteel Shields.

[VirieSquichie]

And add DragonTouched shields.

[redoubt]

Without getting into a long debate rehashing the other 150 threads about ac, there is a simple balancing act that can help.

Shields in D&D are weak. DDO is not at fault for simply porting over the rules, but shields stink.

Any other game, a 4 -5 foot tall hunk of metal your hiding behind would do more than add 4 ac. Shields in history were used because they were useful and could stop a lot of incoming attacks.

Shields in D&D do not give enough ac to matter really compared to just doing more damage. Also, parrying is an option in some games that isnt in D&D. While tempest shield bonus is a similar idea (deflecting attackings with a second weapon) it really should be an option for all two weapon fighters not just rangers.

So the easy fix is to not only reduce all the stacking dodge bonuses that are driving ac up too high compared to others (icy should never have been added to the game), shields should give a +2 ac over what they are now.

No thank you. Maybe these should not have been added... but lets not try to uninvent them, please.

So light shields +2 or +3, heavy +4, and tower +6. Blocking witha shield should be more than +2 ac, a full defence should be +4 more at least.
And blocking while two weapon fighting should give a better blocking bonus.

This would correct some of the imbalance that currently exists between the naked ranger/monks not only having twice the damage of a sword and board type, but that they also have better ac.

Why not just double the value of shields??? That should give you some quick extra AC and give people and "easy button" to get high AC! What could be better?!?!

[smatt]

Why not just double the value of shields??? That should give you some quick extra AC and give people and "easy button" to get high AC! What could be better?!?!

Not nearly the easy button of a 2 weapon fighting Ranger16/Monk2 with extreme AC and DPS. That's an easy button "I am super ranger-monk, I am uber" .... There's a billion and one of them out there.... I dont' want to see them become so easy and cheap to build, from an AP/Feat standpoint.

S/B is broken er soft er weak er just not all that great....... Needs help desperate help... Air neeeeed Air, dying..... dead

But no I don't like the automatic doubling of shields....

[esoitl]

Shields give an appropriate AC bonus as per the D&D Source books. It's not a translational error.
The problem with a sword and shield build is that nothing has been given to them to the magnitude of the Icy Raiments and they have a limit to what their stats can allow them to do.

Any character in a robe or outfit is not limited by their ability scores as someone in armour is and when these can get to incredibly large numbers this puts anyone with a limit further behind. We're getting PrEs for sword and shield characters now and hopefully the developers will throw us a bone with some equipment.

Considering AC only, a good sword and shield build isn't terribly far behind, and even a pure build can achieve a close number. Given a better option to gear out and I think you'd see the sword and shield combination become a viable AC build again. DPS will always be behind but that's the life they lead and there is no fix to it.

[Aesop]

Sword and Shield


Part 1.
The essential point of Shield Fighting is to have more defensive fighting tactics. The problem here is that in the current system a person without a shield or heavier armor (also used for protective purposes) can have a better defense than one who is decked out in what amounts to riot gear. The light fighter has better mobility and can "avoid" more damage than his heavy armor wearing friend. Turbine had to have seen this as a potential issue which would be my guess as to why they implemented Blocking DR.

Blocking DR is just what it says it is. It is the person blocking the incoming strike and absorbing the damage. As the person gets better in combat and better equipment the amount of damage they can absorb increases. The problem is that while “Blocking” an attack the defender has completely lost his damage output allowing the aggressor more time to attack. Additionally if the light fighter needs to for some reason solely defend he can simply pick up a shield and nearly match the defensive heavily armored characters defensive edge.

As I look at it a way that would "help" to partially alleviate the problem is rooted in improving the Blocking system, primarily for those who use Shields actively in combat, and improving the effectiveness of heavier types of armor.


1. Have Armor Add to Blocking DR. Essentially Blocking DR is absorbing a taken hit. SO in this case some of the shock of that hit is absorbed by the heavier armor that the person wears.
Cloth=0
Light=1
Medium=3
Heavy=5

This is BLOCKING DR and would not interfere with Adamantine versions of Armor. It would essentially stack.

Additionally for Warforged have their Body types add to Blocking DR as well. Though have it:
Composite=1
Mithril=3
Adamantine=5

2. Now combat is always moving always fast paced. Expecting a character to actively block between swings with perfect timing over an imperfect network is not logical or likely... So add a percent Chance to AUTOMATICALLY apply Shield Blocking to Shields.
Bucklers=0%
Light Shields= 5%
Heavy Shields=10%
Tower Shield= 20%
Enhancement Bonus to a Shield = +1% per +1 (so a +5 Buckler would have a 5% chance to automatically apply the benefits of Shield Blocking)

3. The Feats Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery should be changed to

Shield Mastery= +2% Block Chance, +2 Blocking DR, +1 Shield AC
Improved Shield Mastery= +3% Blocking Chance & +3 Blocking DR

Barring any further Enhancement of these numbers this gives a Tower Shield user with a +5 Tower Shield and both Shield Master Feats a 30% Chance to passively Shield Block an incoming attack


Think of it this way. If I wind up and hit you with a bat while you are wearing jeans and a t-shirt... it’s going to hurt or break something. If I do the same while you are wearing a set of Full Plate Armor ... it’s going to hurt, but probably a bit less. Now if I wind up and hit the shield you have braced yourself behind it will probably rattle you a bit and possibly even hurt ... but not nearly as much as if you were in those Jeans and T-shirt. If you have a shield and armor on and I suddenly swing towards the center of your body ... likely you will attempt to block my attack with the big hunk of metal or wood you are holding so as to absorb the damage and not get hurt... that's the basic idea here.



This doesn't address the issue that of S&B damage output... with the coming addition of the Tempest II and III and Superior TWF granting the TWF more than double the attacks per sequence than the S&B fighter some sort of damage improvement should be implemented.

My suggestion for this is passive Shield Bashing Attacks built into the current animation, like the Hook attacks of GTWF or the Glancing Blows of the THF line.

Even two per animation sequence with the Improved Shield Bash Feat adding another would help in a small way. Alternately Improved Shield Bash could apply a reciprical Attack on a Successful Block that applies up to the Blocking DR in Damage against the Aggressor.

Adding more offensively minded Shields and Shield Enhancements would be another step towards a more balanced combat system.


Alchemical Rituals
Additionally the Alchemical Rituals that made an appearance a couple Mods ago could add further utility to Shields. The additional Rituals could require the Basic Ritual to be completed before the ritual will work and could apply a few additional benefits to a Shield user.

Example:
Alchemical Ritual of Blocking : Ingredients: Bound Alchemically Enhanced Shield, 25 Greater Earth Soul Stones.
Effect: Improves the Blocking DR of the Shield by 3

Alchemical Ritual of Defending: Ingredients: Bound Alchemically Enhanced Shield, 25 Greater Earth Soul Stones.
Effect: Improves the Passive Blocking of the Shield by 3%



Once again

Aesop

[RATRACE931]

Sure this might be flamed but i'd like to see greensteel sjields and better prefixes and suffixes and blah blah too... BUT Perhaps a system like Diablo 2 shields they all have a percentage chance to block incoming attacks, no greater than 75%, unlike diablo 2 it wouldnt be a total damage block but would instead grant fer 1 round that shields DR.

[Noctus]

One smallstep into the right direction would be greensteel or dragontouched crafted shields.

Currently shields arebehind in combat effectivity, and, to add insult to injury, you can craft every other itemslot, except shields!

[Aesop]

One smallstep into the right direction would be greensteel or dragontouched crafted shields.

Currently shields arebehind in combat effectivity, and, to add insult to injury, you can craft every other itemslot, except shields!

Rings and Trinkets are out too

I'm actually not overly pleased with the direction "crafting" is going over all. Crafting should be about customization not Over Inflation

Aesop

[Riggs]

True I would love to see greensteel shields and DT shields. (And rings and trinkets...hmmm trinkets).

And also true most people agree something should be done about shields, but I figure that to keep mentioning it might, MIGHT get it noticed and acted upon by developers.

While people are also breaking down possible bonuses and fixes, like DR (which is a good idea), the base problem is still the same.

D&D shields are still weak (until you had a +3 or +5 shield it was really a waste of time to have one pretty much), and DDO simply moved the +1/+2/+4 shields over as is, so it is not DDOs fault shields are weak - but there are things they can alter to make them better, like has been done for weapons armor and enhancements and classes etc over time.

I like the idea of automatic blocking, equiping a shield having a % chance of deflecting some attacks without the player having to click anything. That is pretty much what a shield is supposed to be about.

A two weapon fighter will generally beat a sword and shield user(back in the day of occasionally watching SCA battles), but it takes extra skill to use two weapons properly, while if you were to put extra skills into shield use - a shield itself can be a dangerous weapon (not merely a d6 on a bash). Having the edge of a large metal object slam into your neck, knee, or elbow would be something hard to ignore, and possibly crippling.

Blocking dr is mostly irrelevant. On anything that doesnt do enough damage to hurt you while blocking...you dont really need to block anyway. Against something big enough to want to block on...60 damage on a cleave swing will far outpace the dr from blocking by a huge margin, so blocking is of very limited usefulness except in certain situations. I dont consider the old mmo feature of 'taunt/block while your party kills stuff' to be any kind of real representation of why shields are supposed to be useful.

If not more ac, then shields should be giving dr when not blocking - to simulate the overall reduction in damage you should be taking using a shield over not using a shield. And actively blocking should be a fair bit more useful than it is now. Especially tower shields.

So, if greensteel and DT shields were added, all shields had a +2 ac over what they were now, and either they had a % chance to deflect attacks, or a static dr, that would make shield use of much more defensive use, and at least more on par with the other option of having two green steel khopeshes blowing enemies away while the guy with the shield is slowly chipping away at stuff - while still getting hit anyway by monsters able to hit a 55+ ac regularly anyway.

[Aesop]

Just to point this out

Current Shield Blocking Calculation looks like this

Passive DR + [(BAB / 2) + 2 + Shield DR rating (now includes Shield Enhancement) + Shield Mastery Feats + Shield Mastery Enhancements]


If we make the additions and Changes I suggested then at level 20 an Intimitank could have effectively


[(BAB / 2) + 2 + Shield DR rating (now includes Shield Enhancement)+ Armor DR Rating + Shield Mastery Feats + Shield Mastery Enhancements]


[(20 / 2) + 2 + 15 (Hound/VoD Shield)+ 5 DT FP (or higher) + 5 + 2]+Passive DR= 39+Passive DR

so taking 2/3 of the damage from one of those 60 point swings would be a significant help I think... and that is assuming shield DR deosn't exceed the Hound shield in the next Mod or 2 and that DT Armor doesn't supply a little bonus Blocking DR and that the Alchemical Rituals don't improve over the next few mods..


Currently Blocking DR caps out around 33... still not too shabby if they didnt't haveto lose all DPS when they Blocked.

Auto Shield Bash Attacks like Glancing Blows would be a nice help there.

Aesop

[cforce]

For what it's worth:

/signed

...and I'm willing to place a significant wager that the devs already have a shield equivalent to greensteel/dragontouched in the works for a future raid that has either a extra shield bonus (like DT armor), extra dodge bonus, or both.