Please do not tie Prestige Enhancements to classes

[moorewr]

In DDO we've seen the creation of Prestige Enhancements to take the place of PrCs in PnP. There's nothing wrong with this idea, but I have a concern with the way they have been implemented.

Prestige Classes are NOT based on specific classes! At least I can't think of any examples that are. All of them require some combination of the following: BAB, feats, skill levels, or caster levels.

There's two things to note about this. One: You only take one prestige class, and two) what you take along with your base class(es) is only limited by your imagination and the pre-requisites. Examples: Tempest is not a Ranger prestige class! In fact, it is easier to qualify as a fighter. Arcane Archer, in addition to the race limitations, REQUIRES arcane levels, whereas in DDO there is a serious disincentive to MC your ranger. This limits choices.. if I had a nickel for every Tempest Ranger on Thelanis...

Another DDO problem is stacking weirdness. You could conceivably have FOUR prestige enhancements lines - three classes up to level six, plus Arcane Archer (elf) if you could afford all the feats and AP.

NOTA BENE: This is not about any particular feat or class. I don't care about bow strength or STWF. This is purely about structuring Prestige Enhancements to capture the flavor of Pen and Paper Prestige Classes in a DDO way.

[Draccus]

While I also think it's a shame that PrEs are tied to classes, I think I understand why Turbine needs to do this.

PrEs, unlike PrCs, have zero negatives. There are no tradeoffs for taking a PrE. I can't think of one PrC that doesn't have a tradeoff (except the horrid Ninja PrC that was released and then immediately rewritten).

My favorite class/PrC combination is a good example. The Rogue/Assassin gains a lot of great abilities when he takes the assassin PrC but he loses half his skill points. In DDO, though, my Rogue Assassin II loses none of my rogue skills or abilities as I become a better assassin.

Because PrE's are completely about adding power without taking anything away, the balance issues they would create if they were open to all classes would be too large to manage.

[moorewr]

Because PrE's are completely about adding power without taking anything away, the balance issues they would create if they were open to all classes would be too large to manage.

What about balance with the PrEs tied to classes? Tempest I/Kensai II? Warchanter I/Tempest II? Those are far more overpowered that what I'm talking about.

[Zenako]

If you removed the ties to classes for the PrE's, much as Draccus said, you would have a world of min maxing abuse that would end up making quite a bit of content less than trivial. What mechanism would be proposed to then allow only one PrE per class and what boosts count as PrE bonus's and what are just class bonus's.

Crit Raging Barbarian with Assinate Skills? What about a 36 INT Wiz with Assinate Skills. Some truely abusive combos would exist, and how would you design quests for them. The box of potential abilities would be so large that to even come close to challenging those who twink their skill/feats/PrE's would make it impossible for anyone who retained a sembelance of balance as you would see in "normal" D&D.

I frankly would not mind seeing PrE's even more limited than they are. Perhaps only allow a PrE in your 1st level class for the character for example. While a minor change, it would alter things slightly. Or only allow a PrE in the class you have the most levels in. So no taking Tempest Ranger with a 10 Barb/6 Ranger build. Would need to have at least 8 levels of Ranger. Again a minor thing, but in my mind more in keeping with the spirit of PrE's.

[bandyman1]

Lol, I think the OP should've just titled this thread what the subject really is;

GIVE ME STWFing or DooooooooOOOOOOoooommmmMMMMMmmm!!!!!!!!!!!


Common man; God knows we could use another one .

[moorewr]

Lol, I think the OP should've just titled this thread what the subject really is;

GIVE ME STWFing or DooooooooOOOOOOoooommmmMMMMMmmm!!!!!!!!!!!

Wrong. I couldn't care less about STWF.

[moorewr]

If you removed the ties to classes for the PrE's, much as Draccus said, you would have a world of min maxing abuse that would end up making quite a bit of content less than trivial. What mechanism would be proposed to then allow only one PrE per class and what boosts count as PrE bonus's and what are just class bonus's.

Crit Raging Barbarian with Assinate Skills? What about a 36 INT Wiz with Assinate Skills. Some truely abusive combos would exist, and how would you design quests for them. The box of potential abilities would be so large that to even come close to challenging those who twink their skill/feats/PrE's would make it impossible for anyone who retained a sembelance of balance as you would see in "normal" D&D.

I frankly would not mind seeing PrE's even more limited than they are. Perhaps only allow a PrE in your 1st level class for the character for example. While a minor change, it would alter things slightly. Or only allow a PrE in the class you have the most levels in. So no taking Tempest Ranger with a 10 Barb/6 Ranger build. Would need to have at least 8 levels of Ranger. Again a minor thing, but in my mind more in keeping with the spirit of PrE's.

How familiar are you with the pen and paper rules? The above really goes against the spirit of prestige classes.

Assassin as written has a low bar to entry - evil and RP requirements that don't apply to DDO, plus "Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks." SO. A wizard could certainly put cross-class points into Hide and Move Silently and forego the wizard prestige lines to be an assassin. This would be a really poor choice for a normal wizard (since you couldn't land your assassinate!), but could make sense for a "Battlecaster" type build.

Now compare that - and you and Dracces still have not addressed the min/maxing in class-based PrEs.. to the battlecaster that takes Pale Master II (supposing it is uber for one moment) and Assassin I. Or the tempest rogue with Tempest I and Assassin II. How is a wizard that passed up a caster-themed PrE for Assassin anywhere near as unbalanced than that Tempest Rogue?

[Zenako]

How familiar are you with the pen and paper rules? The above really goes against the spirit of prestige classes.

Assassin as written has a low bar to entry - evil and RP requirements that don't apply to DDO, plus "Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks." SO. A wizard could certainly put cross-class points into Hide and Move Silently and forego the wizard prestige lines to be an assassin. This would be a really poor choice for a normal wizard (since you couldn't land your assassinate!), but could make sense for a "Battlecaster" type build.

Now compare that - and you and Dracces still have not addressed the min/maxing in class-based PrEs.. to the battlecaster that takes Pale Master II (supposing it is uber for one moment) and Assassin I. Or the tempest rogue with Tempest I and Assassin II. How is a wizard that passed up a caster-themed PrE for Assassin anywhere near as unbalanced than that Tempest Rogue?

Actually quite familiar with PnP Rules. In those cases you are taking another class and you have to make tradeoffs, plus, unless you are running in a campaign with very lax rules, you cannot swap PrC's around to get the best bang for the AP as you level up. PrE's are a Bonus effect layered on top of the normal Class structure. As such the snyergies they introduce are beyond those seen in PnP D&D due to the whole Enhancement structure, which was put in place I feel to give players something to look forward to between levels in the game. While we have 16 character levels, we have 64 Action Point intervals and steps where new abilities become available when a certain number of AP have been spent.

When my Dwaf Paragon, Deep Warden, Battle Trickster is making a choice about his next character level, it is with tradeoffs. I do this and I get that, I do that and I can now do this, which will it be. With PrE's it tends to be a lot more of I can now do this AND that.

D&D is about having differences between characters. Remove some of these barriers and you end up with a monotonic blend where every character will follow the one-true-way koolaid of optimization. I have seen this in other games.

[Cyr]

I agree with OP. The tying of PrC's to classes in DDO was a mistake. A much preferable system would have been a tie in to requirements much like in pnp. As it stands now PrC's are being used as a way to boost the effectiveness of single class/small splash class toons. This leads to some very powerful PrC's. Instead of more available PrC's which are slightly weaker.

Another bad side effect of this is that less viable build options will be available. With PrC's available to anyone able to meet certain requirements (not including class levels) alot of 'gimped' builds would become more viable and interesting. Including such things as arcane archers who could take some deepwood sniper too for a build that might actually work with ranged combat. Or certain splash caster classes not being a joke.

[moorewr]

An Example of the mistake with Prestige enhancements is Mystic Theurge. Are you just going to put that in a Divine or arcane class?

If you required divine and arcane spell levels instead, you could salvage the Theurge. The tiers could provide a DC bonus to your max caster level for heighten and a spell pen bonus -- to match the PrC's progression, and once qualified (minimum MC would be three cleric and three wizard levels) you could go as deep as you wanted knowing you'd land the same Heightened DC or Spell Pen as a pure caster.

EDIT: corrected the pre-reqs for MT

[TheMerc]

I'd so enjoy having a spellsword enhancement for my ftr/wizard. I just can't bring myself to make him drow or elf, so I'm kinda hurting on spell failure sometimes even with twilight of mithral.

It'd just be nice is all, feels like I'm getting a bit punished for multiclassing, even on any character with the new "capstones" coming down the road as well...

Feat/Spell Casting level driven Prestige enhancements could lead to "munchkin" abuse if done incorrectly I suppose. Maybe making them more of an AP investment, like with the Kensai's requirement of Fighter Attack Boost (Which I think I would've only used if my haste boost was used up anyhow.) and other trivial AP enhancements.

[moorewr]

I'd so enjoy having a spellsword enhancement for my ftr/wizard. I just can't bring myself to make him drow or elf, so I'm kinda hurting on spell failure sometimes even with twilight of mithral.

Eldritch Knight!!
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeCl...itchKnight.htm

[TheMerc]

Eldritch Knight!!
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeCl...itchKnight.htm

Eh, Eldritch Knights always seemed more of a elf thing.

http://www.iourn.com/dnd/classes/pre...spellsword.htm

Spellswords can outright ignore spell failure if that's correct, I'm assuming it is but it's been awhile since I opened that book, I kinda remember it being a percentage based spell failure as you went along instead of outright armor categories. Might have to check that.

I suppose most of this doesn't mean much for a drow/elf ftr/wizard, but I just don't like elves lol, so spellsword's kinda my only option.

[Aesop]

I hate PrEs being tied to class.

I love PrEs being tied to Feats Features and Skill Ranks ... then again that's the way I want the whole bloody Enhancement System

Aesop

[Junts]

In DDO we've seen the creation of Prestige Enhancements to take the place of PrCs in PnP. There's nothing wrong with this idea, but I have a concern with the way they have been implemented.

Prestige Classes are NOT based on specific classes! At least I can't think of any examples that are. All of them require some combination of the following: BAB, feats, skill levels, or caster levels.

There's two things to note about this. One: You only take one prestige class, and two) what you take along with your base class(es) is only limited by your imagination and the pre-requisites. Examples: Tempest is not a Ranger prestige class! In fact, it is easier to qualify as a fighter. Arcane Archer, in addition to the race limitations, REQUIRES arcane levels, whereas in DDO there is a serious disincentive to MC your ranger. This limits choices.. if I had a nickel for every Tempest Ranger on Thelanis...

Another DDO problem is stacking weirdness. You could conceivably have FOUR prestige enhancements lines - three classes up to level six, plus Arcane Archer (elf) if you could afford all the feats and AP.

NOTA BENE: This is not about any particular feat or class. I don't care about bow strength or STWF. This is purely about structuring Prestige Enhancements to capture the flavor of Pen and Paper Prestige Classes in a DDO way.

You're being really simplistic; there's a lot of prcs that require special abilities or things that are almost exclusively associated with a given class or other prestige classes just like it (for example, there's a druidy prc that requires 'must be able to spontaneously cast 'summon nature's ally II' .. not even rangers can meet that, only x druid levels can).

balancing this game in doing it with an open setup like you suggest would bea lmost impossible; that's why pnp dnd is not balanced.

[moorewr]

You're being really simplistic; there's a lot of prcs that require special abilities or things that are almost exclusively associated with a given class or other prestige classes just like it (for example, there's a druidy prc that requires 'must be able to spontaneously cast 'summon nature's ally II' .. not even rangers can meet that, only x druid levels can).

balancing this game in doing it with an open setup like you suggest would bea lmost impossible; that's why pnp dnd is not balanced.

I don't think I'm being "simplistic" at all. Last time I checked the DD in DDO stood for Dungeons and Dragons - furthermore D&D v3.5. If a few of the PrC have pre-reqs which largely limit them to one class, then we'd have the same limits here. What's more "open" about DDO than d20 OGL? What do you mean by that?

As far as balance goes - DDO is balanced? Ask the next S&B fighter you run without about that. Of course there would have to be changes made to be appropriate to the DDO setting, but they should be made with the goal of retaining the flavor of PnP PrCs.

Also - going back to Z's example above - a wizard decides to qualify for Assassin, passing up any caster-themed PrEs. Is that really unbalanced (actually it is; it's would seriously gimp most wizards)? How is that more unbalanced than the min/max outrage of a Assassin I/Kensai I/Tempest I possible under the class-based PrEs?

[moorewr]

Do you like answering rhetorical questions? Let me repeat one from another thread: should the objective of DDO be to replicate, as far as possible in an MMO setting, the game design decisions (imbalances and all) of pen and paper D&D v3.5?

To me the answer is obvious: yes.

(EDIT: I left out the word answering in the first sentence, which spoils the joke and makes me look like I don't know the definition of rhetorical)

[RATRACE931]

Also - going back to Z's example above - a wizard decides to qualify for Assassin, passing up any caster-themed PrEs. Is that really unbalanced (actually it is; it's would seriously gimp most wizards)? How is that more unbalanced than the min/max outrage of a Assassin I/Kensai I/Tempest I possible under the class-based PrEs?

yeah all ur **** is amusing but tell me this HONESTLY how would being 4 different PrE make anyone anything more than a bs jack-of-all-trades? Assassin 1 so u can do some extra damage on a crit woo... Kensai 1 hey now my extra damage equals mentaus goggles woo... Tempest 1 oh i can swing fast but oh look i just missed out on a chance to auto kill and vorpal any wep, a TON of damage and +1 to my threat range, and and extra 2 ac... Waaaaait... thats why my toons bum hurts! cross PrE is no different in my opinion than running into that 9 clr, ftr, 2 pali i grouped with earlier, great player fun guy and half decent tank with decent ac and decent intimidate and middle ranger hp's thanks to its dwarfism and ALL sub par. Im still waiting for proof that our current system isnt the lesser of two evils and shouldnt be even MORE class specific

[moorewr]

Ratrace, your post is giving me a migraine. *** was it about anyway? Let me see if I can interrupt your stream of uber l33t invective about my theoretical example and break this down to your level.

The issue isn't whether an assassin/tempest or tempest/kensai or tempest/berserker or tempest/warchanter is uber l33t. I don't care what the best build is going to be. It's that in D&D you get one prestige class, but you decide how to get there.. so you don't have a server full of Tempest Rangers. The result would be better D&D, better game balance, and more variety.

[RATRACE931]

The more and more I re-read everything you've said the more confussed I am. You obviously think Tempest is overpowered, and are annoyed and frieghtened by all the people wanting to build the "Ultimate" toon hence this years new favorite splash's. I fail to see how this is game breaking or so horribly underbalanced as to merit such a drastic post. Cross classing for PrE's is just as large a sacrifice here as it was in PnP imo, you miss out on the higher and more drasticaly devastating PrE, lose capstone(Though some are no real loss at all). The only way I see to blance out the Tempest or perhaps the future Kensai would be to make it MORE class related or god forbid, once again raise the lvl requirement on the lowest tier so that you culd only have 1 tier of 2 instead 2 of one and 1 of another. And frankly the quantity of PrE's they are adding i belive will grant us the blance you are looking for. Patience is the key here, enought ppl are B*tching

PS: not even going to bother fixing my grammer im multitasking, ppl will get over it.