Please do not tie Prestige Enhancements to classes

[Aesop]

I hate PrEs being tied to class.

I love PrEs being tied to Feats Features and Skill Ranks ... then again that's the way I want the whole bloody Enhancement System

Aesop

[TheMerc]

I hate PrEs being tied to class.

I love PrEs being tied to Feats Features and Skill Ranks ... then again that's the way I want the whole bloody Enhancement System

Aesop

Yes, it smacks somewhat of 4E endorsement doesn't it?

[Aesop]

yes, It Smacks Somewhat Of 4e Endorsement Doesn't It?

No... oh you meant the tied to calss bit... yeah it does and I hates it

[Junts]

In DDO we've seen the creation of Prestige Enhancements to take the place of PrCs in PnP. There's nothing wrong with this idea, but I have a concern with the way they have been implemented.

Prestige Classes are NOT based on specific classes! At least I can't think of any examples that are. All of them require some combination of the following: BAB, feats, skill levels, or caster levels.

There's two things to note about this. One: You only take one prestige class, and two) what you take along with your base class(es) is only limited by your imagination and the pre-requisites. Examples: Tempest is not a Ranger prestige class! In fact, it is easier to qualify as a fighter. Arcane Archer, in addition to the race limitations, REQUIRES arcane levels, whereas in DDO there is a serious disincentive to MC your ranger. This limits choices.. if I had a nickel for every Tempest Ranger on Thelanis...

Another DDO problem is stacking weirdness. You could conceivably have FOUR prestige enhancements lines - three classes up to level six, plus Arcane Archer (elf) if you could afford all the feats and AP.

NOTA BENE: This is not about any particular feat or class. I don't care about bow strength or STWF. This is purely about structuring Prestige Enhancements to capture the flavor of Pen and Paper Prestige Classes in a DDO way.

You're being really simplistic; there's a lot of prcs that require special abilities or things that are almost exclusively associated with a given class or other prestige classes just like it (for example, there's a druidy prc that requires 'must be able to spontaneously cast 'summon nature's ally II' .. not even rangers can meet that, only x druid levels can).

balancing this game in doing it with an open setup like you suggest would bea lmost impossible; that's why pnp dnd is not balanced.

[moorewr]

You're being really simplistic; there's a lot of prcs that require special abilities or things that are almost exclusively associated with a given class or other prestige classes just like it (for example, there's a druidy prc that requires 'must be able to spontaneously cast 'summon nature's ally II' .. not even rangers can meet that, only x druid levels can).

balancing this game in doing it with an open setup like you suggest would bea lmost impossible; that's why pnp dnd is not balanced.

I don't think I'm being "simplistic" at all. Last time I checked the DD in DDO stood for Dungeons and Dragons - furthermore D&D v3.5. If a few of the PrC have pre-reqs which largely limit them to one class, then we'd have the same limits here. What's more "open" about DDO than d20 OGL? What do you mean by that?

As far as balance goes - DDO is balanced? Ask the next S&B fighter you run without about that. Of course there would have to be changes made to be appropriate to the DDO setting, but they should be made with the goal of retaining the flavor of PnP PrCs.

Also - going back to Z's example above - a wizard decides to qualify for Assassin, passing up any caster-themed PrEs. Is that really unbalanced (actually it is; it's would seriously gimp most wizards)? How is that more unbalanced than the min/max outrage of a Assassin I/Kensai I/Tempest I possible under the class-based PrEs?

[moorewr]

Do you like answering rhetorical questions? Let me repeat one from another thread: should the objective of DDO be to replicate, as far as possible in an MMO setting, the game design decisions (imbalances and all) of pen and paper D&D v3.5?

To me the answer is obvious: yes.

(EDIT: I left out the word answering in the first sentence, which spoils the joke and makes me look like I don't know the definition of rhetorical)

[RATRACE931]

Also - going back to Z's example above - a wizard decides to qualify for Assassin, passing up any caster-themed PrEs. Is that really unbalanced (actually it is; it's would seriously gimp most wizards)? How is that more unbalanced than the min/max outrage of a Assassin I/Kensai I/Tempest I possible under the class-based PrEs?

yeah all ur **** is amusing but tell me this HONESTLY how would being 4 different PrE make anyone anything more than a bs jack-of-all-trades? Assassin 1 so u can do some extra damage on a crit woo... Kensai 1 hey now my extra damage equals mentaus goggles woo... Tempest 1 oh i can swing fast but oh look i just missed out on a chance to auto kill and vorpal any wep, a TON of damage and +1 to my threat range, and and extra 2 ac... Waaaaait... thats why my toons bum hurts! cross PrE is no different in my opinion than running into that 9 clr, ftr, 2 pali i grouped with earlier, great player fun guy and half decent tank with decent ac and decent intimidate and middle ranger hp's thanks to its dwarfism and ALL sub par. Im still waiting for proof that our current system isnt the lesser of two evils and shouldnt be even MORE class specific

[moorewr]

Ratrace, your post is giving me a migraine. *** was it about anyway? Let me see if I can interrupt your stream of uber l33t invective about my theoretical example and break this down to your level.

The issue isn't whether an assassin/tempest or tempest/kensai or tempest/berserker or tempest/warchanter is uber l33t. I don't care what the best build is going to be. It's that in D&D you get one prestige class, but you decide how to get there.. so you don't have a server full of Tempest Rangers. The result would be better D&D, better game balance, and more variety.

[RATRACE931]

The more and more I re-read everything you've said the more confussed I am. You obviously think Tempest is overpowered, and are annoyed and frieghtened by all the people wanting to build the "Ultimate" toon hence this years new favorite splash's. I fail to see how this is game breaking or so horribly underbalanced as to merit such a drastic post. Cross classing for PrE's is just as large a sacrifice here as it was in PnP imo, you miss out on the higher and more drasticaly devastating PrE, lose capstone(Though some are no real loss at all). The only way I see to blance out the Tempest or perhaps the future Kensai would be to make it MORE class related or god forbid, once again raise the lvl requirement on the lowest tier so that you culd only have 1 tier of 2 instead 2 of one and 1 of another. And frankly the quantity of PrE's they are adding i belive will grant us the blance you are looking for. Patience is the key here, enought ppl are B*tching

PS: not even going to bother fixing my grammer im multitasking, ppl will get over it.

[RATRACE931]

I'd like to add that id like u to ignor any comments that appear hostile fer once im not here as an instagater, Multiclassing is my favorite part about D&D(Hence my custom Grimbite build and my fav Monk/rog/Assassin) I really am trying to understand what your beef is and/or why you think there is a better way than that which is being implemented.

[Vorn]

I don't mind them being tied to classes at all--as long as they can keep tinkering to make all the classes fun. It reminds me a lot of the new normative D&D pnp product 4.0 (minority opinion again, I enjoy 4.0, but then I prefer first edition to 3.x as well).

[moorewr]

You obviously think Tempest is overpowered, and are annoyed and frieghtened by all the people wanting to build the "Ultimate" toon hence this years new favorite splash's.

WRONG. Re-read my Nota Bene in the OP.

I do not especially care about any particular feat or prestige line. I care about the fact that class-based Prestige lines are a major departure from PnP that reduces variety (as well as creating the theoretical imbalances listed above).

Edit - how familiar are you with Prestige Classes in pen and paper D&D?

[RATRACE931]

Im was pretty familiar with them, but I'm deffinatly very rusty on the subject. So basically this is a theoretical and opinionated complaint yes? I think all the PrE offer a very LARGE variety and while it is a as u say departure from PnP the entire game is a step away from PnP and has to be because of the MMO factor, i think the PrE help and not enhibit the MMO feel and gameplay, and still not seeing the problem... maybe I'm a ******. Also been up fer like 32 hours soo.. maybe ill clue in once ive had some sleep.

PS: only rason i brought up you and tempest is that it is in every1 one of your examples from the multi classes to the duel wielding barb with rapiers and ur alusions to splash builds, seems at least to be some sort of resentment shining through.

[moorewr]

Im was pretty familiar with them, but I'm deffinatly very rusty on the subject. So basically this is a theoretical and opinionated complaint yes? I think all the PrE offer a very LARGE variety, and still not seeing the problem... maybe I'm a ******.

The problem is that D&D Prestige Classes allow a wide variety of paths to meet their pre-reqs. They do NOT require one specific class. They are based on BAB, feats, caster levels, and/or skills.

You can look at the d20 OGL prestige classes here:
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/classes.htm

Examples -- Shadow Dancer
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeCl...adowdancer.htm

Requirements

To qualify to become a shadowdancer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills
Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks.

Feats
Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility.

In Pen and Paper, usually this would be a rogue - but it *could* be any class.

Arcane Trickster:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeCl...eTrickster.htm

Requirements

To qualify to become an arcane trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment
Any nonlawful.

Skills
Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.

Spells
Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher.

Special
Sneak attack +2d6.

Here's one where the character has to have rogue and caster levels. Would this be a rogue PrE or a wizard PrE or a sorc PrE? And why? when you can follow PnP and use the existing pre-reqs. Obviously the player continues their existing MC classes in DDO, but it is up to them to decide what the balance is between the rogue and caster levels.

[Zenako]

There are also a huge pile of PrCs that REQUIRE one to be a certain Race to take.

Others Require you to be able to Turn Undead (ie Cleric or Paladin)

Other Require specific spells or wild shape (Specific Caster Class or Druid)

There are also quite a few that have nothing but "generic" requirements for them that anyone wishing to build towards them can take.

A number require a certain level of Sneak Attack/Skirmish Damge (requires rogue or skirmish class) to take.

Or the Singing Ability of a Bard.

On the whole, my impression is that there are more with Class requirements, than not, while it may well be true that many of those class restricted PrC's might suck and never be taken, they are there.

Just like the number of players who actually take Improved Critical Blunt or Thrown in DDO is probably a pretty darn small number, those Feat Options exist.

Many of the more effective PrC's get taken over and over again, since they suit the play style of the players involved, just like in DDO where certain builds will shine all the more brightly in certain Playstyles and seem lacking in others.

For Example: A balls to the wall kill them fast, AC be damned build, who cares if I die, just a few plat from the pocket build, will not last very long or be very effective in a Perma Death group. Other builds based on taking out mobs (tactics, spells, etc) have a more prominent role in those parties due in part to the slower more diliberate play style.

[moorewr]

You should have mentioned Arcane Archer - elves only!

[Zenako]

You should have mentioned Arcane Archer - elves only!

True, but since I have been playing mainly Dwarves and Humans in recent PnP campaigns I tend to forget some of them.

mmmm
Dwarf Fighter Substitution Classes (1 and 2 (but never gonna tack the level 8 one)), Dwarf Paragon (1,2, and 3 (out of 3 max)), Deep Warden (1 thru 4 (out of 10 possible)), Battle Trickster (1, 2 (out of 3 possible)), and you got a dang hard to kill tumbling acrobatic fool. Three required me to be dwarf (obviously) and one is purely based on Skills/Feats taken. Oh and lest I forget, also have an Earth Elemental Bloodline kicker as well. Will be morphing and Taking Cleric 1 due to in game reasons and service to a particular diety, and then...who knows. Yah, I got some experience with PrC's et al.

[moorewr]

True, but since I have been playing mainly Dwarves and Humans in recent PnP campaigns I tend to forget some of them.

I thought you might find AA relevant since it's a DDO PrE.

[Junts]

Hey moor, have you paused to consider how most of the prc requitements are done that way because dms may be using other base and prestige classes(or prcs as bases), whereas ddo doesn't have that problem? There are many ways in pnp to get 2d6 sneak: just one in ddo.

There's not gonna be 123 prcs here like pnp; that's why most dms don't use all the supplements.

If you want to play phb dnd 3.5, I suggest using a table. This aint that.

[moorewr]

Hey moor, have you paused to consider how most of the prc requitements are done that way because dms may be using other base and prestige classes(or prcs as bases), whereas ddo doesn't have that problem? There are many ways in pnp to get 2d6 sneak: just one in ddo.

There's not gonna be 123 prcs here like pnp; that's why most dms don't use all the supplements.

If you want to play phb dnd 3.5, I suggest using a table. This aint that.

I think I have a firm understanding of the game design behind Prestige Classes. Have you paused to consider which class you'd stick Arcane Trickster in, for example?

As for the hand-waving about tables, pal, you mean the DMG, not the PHB, and if you aren't here to play D&D, why are you here?