Please do not tie Prestige Enhancements to classes

[moorewr]

In DDO we've seen the creation of Prestige Enhancements to take the place of PrCs in PnP. There's nothing wrong with this idea, but I have a concern with the way they have been implemented.

Prestige Classes are NOT based on specific classes! At least I can't think of any examples that are. All of them require some combination of the following: BAB, feats, skill levels, or caster levels.

There's two things to note about this. One: You only take one prestige class, and two) what you take along with your base class(es) is only limited by your imagination and the pre-requisites. Examples: Tempest is not a Ranger prestige class! In fact, it is easier to qualify as a fighter. Arcane Archer, in addition to the race limitations, REQUIRES arcane levels, whereas in DDO there is a serious disincentive to MC your ranger. This limits choices.. if I had a nickel for every Tempest Ranger on Thelanis...

Another DDO problem is stacking weirdness. You could conceivably have FOUR prestige enhancements lines - three classes up to level six, plus Arcane Archer (elf) if you could afford all the feats and AP.

NOTA BENE: This is not about any particular feat or class. I don't care about bow strength or STWF. This is purely about structuring Prestige Enhancements to capture the flavor of Pen and Paper Prestige Classes in a DDO way.

[Draccus]

While I also think it's a shame that PrEs are tied to classes, I think I understand why Turbine needs to do this.

PrEs, unlike PrCs, have zero negatives. There are no tradeoffs for taking a PrE. I can't think of one PrC that doesn't have a tradeoff (except the horrid Ninja PrC that was released and then immediately rewritten).

My favorite class/PrC combination is a good example. The Rogue/Assassin gains a lot of great abilities when he takes the assassin PrC but he loses half his skill points. In DDO, though, my Rogue Assassin II loses none of my rogue skills or abilities as I become a better assassin.

Because PrE's are completely about adding power without taking anything away, the balance issues they would create if they were open to all classes would be too large to manage.

[moorewr]

Because PrE's are completely about adding power without taking anything away, the balance issues they would create if they were open to all classes would be too large to manage.

What about balance with the PrEs tied to classes? Tempest I/Kensai II? Warchanter I/Tempest II? Those are far more overpowered that what I'm talking about.

[Zenako]

If you removed the ties to classes for the PrE's, much as Draccus said, you would have a world of min maxing abuse that would end up making quite a bit of content less than trivial. What mechanism would be proposed to then allow only one PrE per class and what boosts count as PrE bonus's and what are just class bonus's.

Crit Raging Barbarian with Assinate Skills? What about a 36 INT Wiz with Assinate Skills. Some truely abusive combos would exist, and how would you design quests for them. The box of potential abilities would be so large that to even come close to challenging those who twink their skill/feats/PrE's would make it impossible for anyone who retained a sembelance of balance as you would see in "normal" D&D.

I frankly would not mind seeing PrE's even more limited than they are. Perhaps only allow a PrE in your 1st level class for the character for example. While a minor change, it would alter things slightly. Or only allow a PrE in the class you have the most levels in. So no taking Tempest Ranger with a 10 Barb/6 Ranger build. Would need to have at least 8 levels of Ranger. Again a minor thing, but in my mind more in keeping with the spirit of PrE's.

[bandyman1]

Lol, I think the OP should've just titled this thread what the subject really is;

GIVE ME STWFing or DooooooooOOOOOOoooommmmMMMMMmmm!!!!!!!!!!!


Common man; God knows we could use another one .

[moorewr]

If you removed the ties to classes for the PrE's, much as Draccus said, you would have a world of min maxing abuse that would end up making quite a bit of content less than trivial. What mechanism would be proposed to then allow only one PrE per class and what boosts count as PrE bonus's and what are just class bonus's.

Crit Raging Barbarian with Assinate Skills? What about a 36 INT Wiz with Assinate Skills. Some truely abusive combos would exist, and how would you design quests for them. The box of potential abilities would be so large that to even come close to challenging those who twink their skill/feats/PrE's would make it impossible for anyone who retained a sembelance of balance as you would see in "normal" D&D.

I frankly would not mind seeing PrE's even more limited than they are. Perhaps only allow a PrE in your 1st level class for the character for example. While a minor change, it would alter things slightly. Or only allow a PrE in the class you have the most levels in. So no taking Tempest Ranger with a 10 Barb/6 Ranger build. Would need to have at least 8 levels of Ranger. Again a minor thing, but in my mind more in keeping with the spirit of PrE's.

How familiar are you with the pen and paper rules? The above really goes against the spirit of prestige classes.

Assassin as written has a low bar to entry - evil and RP requirements that don't apply to DDO, plus "Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks." SO. A wizard could certainly put cross-class points into Hide and Move Silently and forego the wizard prestige lines to be an assassin. This would be a really poor choice for a normal wizard (since you couldn't land your assassinate!), but could make sense for a "Battlecaster" type build.

Now compare that - and you and Dracces still have not addressed the min/maxing in class-based PrEs.. to the battlecaster that takes Pale Master II (supposing it is uber for one moment) and Assassin I. Or the tempest rogue with Tempest I and Assassin II. How is a wizard that passed up a caster-themed PrE for Assassin anywhere near as unbalanced than that Tempest Rogue?

[moorewr]

Lol, I think the OP should've just titled this thread what the subject really is;

GIVE ME STWFing or DooooooooOOOOOOoooommmmMMMMMmmm!!!!!!!!!!!

Wrong. I couldn't care less about STWF.

[moorewr]

My kingdom for a cogent, logical response to my entire post.

[Hobgoblin]

My kingdom for a cogent, logical response to my entire post.

it sucks

[moorewr]

it sucks

*cries*

[Hobgoblin]

you said logical and short right?

[moorewr]

you said logical and short right?

I'll admit you were halfway there.

[Zenako]

How familiar are you with the pen and paper rules? The above really goes against the spirit of prestige classes.

Assassin as written has a low bar to entry - evil and RP requirements that don't apply to DDO, plus "Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks." SO. A wizard could certainly put cross-class points into Hide and Move Silently and forego the wizard prestige lines to be an assassin. This would be a really poor choice for a normal wizard (since you couldn't land your assassinate!), but could make sense for a "Battlecaster" type build.

Now compare that - and you and Dracces still have not addressed the min/maxing in class-based PrEs.. to the battlecaster that takes Pale Master II (supposing it is uber for one moment) and Assassin I. Or the tempest rogue with Tempest I and Assassin II. How is a wizard that passed up a caster-themed PrE for Assassin anywhere near as unbalanced than that Tempest Rogue?

Actually quite familiar with PnP Rules. In those cases you are taking another class and you have to make tradeoffs, plus, unless you are running in a campaign with very lax rules, you cannot swap PrC's around to get the best bang for the AP as you level up. PrE's are a Bonus effect layered on top of the normal Class structure. As such the snyergies they introduce are beyond those seen in PnP D&D due to the whole Enhancement structure, which was put in place I feel to give players something to look forward to between levels in the game. While we have 16 character levels, we have 64 Action Point intervals and steps where new abilities become available when a certain number of AP have been spent.

When my Dwaf Paragon, Deep Warden, Battle Trickster is making a choice about his next character level, it is with tradeoffs. I do this and I get that, I do that and I can now do this, which will it be. With PrE's it tends to be a lot more of I can now do this AND that.

D&D is about having differences between characters. Remove some of these barriers and you end up with a monotonic blend where every character will follow the one-true-way koolaid of optimization. I have seen this in other games.

[bandyman1]

Good ammendum .

[moorewr]

Actually quite familiar with PnP Rules. In those cases you are taking another class and you have to make tradeoffs, plus, unless you are running in a campaign with very lax rules, you cannot swap PrC's around to get the best bang for the AP as you level up. PrE's are a Bonus effect layered on top of the normal Class structure. As such the snyergies they introduce are beyond those seen in PnP D&D due to the whole Enhancement structure, which was put in place I feel to give players something to look forward to between levels in the game. While we have 16 character levels, we have 64 Action Point intervals and steps where new abilities become available when a certain number of AP have been spent.

When my Dwaf Paragon, Deep Warden, Battle Trickster is making a choice about his next character level, it is with tradeoffs. I do this and I get that, I do that and I can now do this, which will it be. With PrE's it tends to be a lot more of I can now do this AND that.

D&D is about having differences between characters. Remove some of these barriers and you end up with a monotonic blend where every character will follow the one-true-way koolaid of optimization. I have seen this in other games.

You still haven't addresses stacking multiple PrEs under the current rules.. and what could be more "monotonic" (good college word there ) than a server full of rapier TWF crit rage barbs and Tempest Rangers?

I'll give you this much - there should be more lock-in when you pick a prestige line than currently exists.

[Cyr]

I agree with OP. The tying of PrC's to classes in DDO was a mistake. A much preferable system would have been a tie in to requirements much like in pnp. As it stands now PrC's are being used as a way to boost the effectiveness of single class/small splash class toons. This leads to some very powerful PrC's. Instead of more available PrC's which are slightly weaker.

Another bad side effect of this is that less viable build options will be available. With PrC's available to anyone able to meet certain requirements (not including class levels) alot of 'gimped' builds would become more viable and interesting. Including such things as arcane archers who could take some deepwood sniper too for a build that might actually work with ranged combat. Or certain splash caster classes not being a joke.

[moorewr]

An Example of the mistake with Prestige enhancements is Mystic Theurge. Are you just going to put that in a Divine or arcane class?

If you required divine and arcane spell levels instead, you could salvage the Theurge. The tiers could provide a DC bonus to your max caster level for heighten and a spell pen bonus -- to match the PrC's progression, and once qualified (minimum MC would be three cleric and three wizard levels) you could go as deep as you wanted knowing you'd land the same Heightened DC or Spell Pen as a pure caster.

EDIT: corrected the pre-reqs for MT

[TheMerc]

I'd so enjoy having a spellsword enhancement for my ftr/wizard. I just can't bring myself to make him drow or elf, so I'm kinda hurting on spell failure sometimes even with twilight of mithral.

It'd just be nice is all, feels like I'm getting a bit punished for multiclassing, even on any character with the new "capstones" coming down the road as well...

Feat/Spell Casting level driven Prestige enhancements could lead to "munchkin" abuse if done incorrectly I suppose. Maybe making them more of an AP investment, like with the Kensai's requirement of Fighter Attack Boost (Which I think I would've only used if my haste boost was used up anyhow.) and other trivial AP enhancements.

[moorewr]

I'd so enjoy having a spellsword enhancement for my ftr/wizard. I just can't bring myself to make him drow or elf, so I'm kinda hurting on spell failure sometimes even with twilight of mithral.

Eldritch Knight!!
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeCl...itchKnight.htm

[TheMerc]

Eldritch Knight!!
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeCl...itchKnight.htm

Eh, Eldritch Knights always seemed more of a elf thing.

http://www.iourn.com/dnd/classes/pre...spellsword.htm

Spellswords can outright ignore spell failure if that's correct, I'm assuming it is but it's been awhile since I opened that book, I kinda remember it being a percentage based spell failure as you went along instead of outright armor categories. Might have to check that.

I suppose most of this doesn't mean much for a drow/elf ftr/wizard, but I just don't like elves lol, so spellsword's kinda my only option.