We don't need STWF

[krud]

For all of you screaming for the STWF feat - YOU ALREADY HAVE IT!!!!

First of all, there is no STWF feat in PnP per se. The closest thing to STWF is the epic feat Perfect TWF.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Per...eapon_Fighting

Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting [Epic]
PrerequisitesDex 25, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting.

BenefitThe character can make as many attacks with his or her off-hand weapon as with his or her primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. The character still takes the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons.

NormalWithout this feat, a character can only get a single attack with an off-hand weapon (or two attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or three attacks with an off-hand weapon if he or she has Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).

Let's look at the DDO attack sequence (proposed STWF in yellow):
http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Combo_chain

Table: Attack bonuses for two-weapon fighting  
BAB  1st      2nd       3rd     4th     5th 
10  +8       +8/+8    +13/+13  +18  
11  +9/+9    +9/+9    +14/+14  +19/+19  -  
12  +10/+10  +10/+10  +15/+15  +20/+20  -  
13  +11/+11  +11/+11  +16/+16  +21/+21  -  
14  +12/+12  +12/+12  +17/+17  +22/+22  -  
15  +13/+13  +13/+13  +18/+18  +23/+23  +23/+23/+23  
16  +14/+14  +14/+14  +19/+19  +24/+24  +24/+24/+24

Technically, we get the equivalent of PTWF with GTWF at level11. That's 10 levels sooner than we should have it! If they implement STWF as shown above, then we are getting a feat that would be even better than the epic feat! If turbine decides to give us a 6th attack animation, then STWF can be implemented to give an extra attack on that last animation. However, until they do, when you start complaining about the lack of STWF, quit your whining, you already have it.

Why does anyone feel that a feat that is beyond an epic feat is necessary for TWF? Especially considering how far behind THF and S&B are. Are there any THF or S&B epic feats we can have? If so, then give it to us, along with one more above it.

oh, and btw - my mage hasn't had any boost to his dps spells in a long while. Please add some more of those too.

[Impaqt]

Actully, I was surprised myself to find that Supreme TWF is indeed a legitamate Tempest Feat/Ability.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170743

[krud]

Actully, I was surprised myself to find that Supreme TWF is indeed a legitamate Tempest Feat/Ability.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170743

edit - oops! thought you were referring to the ranger tier 3 tempest enhacement.

http://winter.mushpark.com/wiki/index.php/Tempest
If implemented as stated it should only give us a total of 4 extra offhand attacks. In DDO we get 2 extra offhand attacks instead of one for GTWF. You could say that Supreme TWF is already implemented as part of GTWF, and we get Perfect TWF at BAB15.

[Angelus_dead]

For all of you screaming for the STWF feat - YOU ALREADY HAVE IT!!!!

That was true in the past, but in module 9 that won't be the case anymore. There will be a different attack animation, and it will take an STWF-eqivalent to get the most from it.

[krud]

That was true in the past, but in module 9 that won't be the case anymore. There will be a different attack animation, and it will take an STWF-eqivalent to get the most from it.

will they be adding a 6th attack? If so, then what you say is true. I haven't seen or heard anything yet. either way, they're still getting an epic feat before they should.

[Angelus_dead]

I haven't seen or heard anything yet.

Agreed. Here you go.

[Impaqt]

will they be adding a 6th attack? If so, then what you say is true. I haven't seen or heard anything yet. either way, they're still getting an epic feat before they should.

We get all kinds of feats in this game we shouldnt have.... and the fact remains that Tempest characters do indeed get more attacks than any other character in PnP. So whether you want to call it Superior TWF or Ultra Uber TWF for Tempest, its academic.

In PnP, the extra attacks are not all that exciting due to the regressive attack progression. Here, those exra attacks are almost a guaranteed hit due to the progressive bonus.

I still want to take Tempest on my Fighter though.

[Borror0]

For all of you screaming for the STWF feat - YOU ALREADY HAVE IT!!!!

No, we don't.

It would be a mistake to implement it for how powerful TWF is, but that is another topic.

[bobbryan2]

Technically, we get the equivalent of PTWF with GTWF at level11. That's 10 levels sooner than we should have it! If they implement STWF as shown above, then we are getting a feat that would be even better than the epic feat! If turbine decides to give us a 6th attack animation, then STWF can be implemented to give an extra attack on that last animation. However, until they do, when you start complaining about the lack of STWF, quit your whining, you already have it.

No we are NOT!

Let's see.. how do the TWF feats work in PnP. Well... you get 1 attack at BAB 1, 2 at 5, 3 at 10.

So let's see... We have...

0/-5/-10/-15 at BAB 15, yes?

in DDO we have...

0/0/+5/+10/+10 at BAB 15, yes?


So, in regular PnP, simply equipping a second weapon will give you a bonus attack (at your highest BAB no less). Further TWF feats are incrementally less important because they're simply 'extra' attacks at lower and lower attack bonuses. ITWF might be ok for just -5 to hit... but is GTWF worth it at -10? And then Supreme comes in at -15... and jeez.

In DDO, however, You don't get double attacks at BAB 0-5! You start out getting one bonus to one of the first two. And since these attacks don't take place in a round... you HAVE to take the TWF feats to maintain your same level of DPS. You're not getting completely extra attacks... you're just allowing yourself the same rate of attack.

All of this to say... The DDO feats don't even increase rate of attack like PnP feats do. So you're comparing apples and oranges.

Also as someone pointed out, there IS a supreme TWF for Tempests, so you're not getting an epic level feat.

And it's actually a penalty in DDO to be required to take all the TWF feats to maintain the same rate of attack. GTWF is the first feat that actually ups your rate of attack because it adds to the first swing as well.

Anyways... comparing PnP TWF feats with DDO TWF feats is a path fraught with peril.

[bobbryan2]

No, we don't.

It would be a mistake to implement it for how powerful TWF is, but that is another topic.

It would be a mistake to not implement it if BAB 20 adds an attack without an offhand hook.

[Borror0]

It would be a mistake to not implement it if BAB 20 adds an attack without an offhand hook.

Wrong. TWF is so powerful right now that it would be more than acceptable not to.

[bobbryan2]

Wrong. TWF is so powerful right now that it would be more than acceptable not to.

Wrong. Penalizing TWF for attaining BAB 20 is unacceptable in any way, shape or form.

Granting yet even MORE bonuses to a ranger 19/monk 1 should be avoided at all cost. An increased rate of attack for BAB 19 vs BAB 20 is poor planning, design AND implementation.

[Borror0]

Wrong. Penalizing TWF for attaining BAB 20 is unacceptable in any way, shape or form.

Point taken, but that's more an argument against an additional swing at 20 BAB rather for STWF.

[krud]

Wrong. Penalizing TWF for attaining BAB 20 is unacceptable in any way, shape or form.

Granting yet even MORE bonuses to a ranger 19/monk 1 should be avoided at all cost. An increased rate of attack for BAB 19 vs BAB 20 is poor planning, design AND implementation.

I would argue for dropping the STWF part of the tier3 tempest enhancement as well. If turbine adds the 6th animation at bab20, then STWF should be made available as a ranger capstone.

[Angelus_dead]

Wrong. Penalizing TWF for attaining BAB 20 is unacceptable in any way, shape or form.

Note that currently TWF is penalized for obtaining BAB10, which is clearly a flaw. That was especially true from module 0-2, when BAB10 was the highest possible. Pure-class TWF rangers had less DPS than S&B, since -2 attack with 4 mainhand and 2 offhand (half str) was worse than 4 unpenalized mainhand hits.

Obviously, it was wrong for TWF to have less DPS than THF, and insane for it to have less than S&B.

[Angelus_dead]

I would argue for dropping the STWF part of the tier3 tempest enhancement as well. If turbine adds the 6th animation at bab20, then STWF should be made available as a ranger capstone.

That would be really bad for any ran19/fig1, ran19/barb1, ran19/bard1, ran19/rog1, and of course ran19/monk1 characters.

Allowing them to respec class levels and change into pure rangers would mitigate that problem, but not enough to turn it into a "good" thing.

[Angelus_dead]

Point taken, but that's more an argument against an additional swing at 20 BAB rather for STWF.

Not exactly. Notice that DDO characters need ITWF after gaining an attack at BAB5, and GTWF at BAB10. However, gaining an attack at BAB15 doesn't necessitate any new TWF feat, because it turns out that everyone gains two attack rolls on that animation if they're holding two weapons.

The same could be done with the BAB20 animation, in three obvious ways:
1. Give a second attack at BAB20 to anyone holding an offhand weapon.
2. Give a second attack at BAB20 to any GTWF character holding an offhand weapon.
3. Give a second attack at BAB20 to GTWF characters with either dex 19-21 or ran15-17.

Note that the 3rd choice would be the least powerful, and help weaken TWF compared to THF, but it would obviously necessitate ability-score respec.

[krud]

That would be really bad for any ran19/fig1, ran19/barb1, ran19/bard1, ran19/rog1, and of course ran19/monk1 characters.

Allowing them to respec class levels and change into pure rangers would mitigate that problem, but not enough to turn it into a "good" thing.

Why would that be bad? They obviously get some other benefits by splashing. It's called a trade off. One more attack, versus +4 to 7 AC from monk splash, full umd or rogue skills. I'd call it a fair trade.

[Aesop]

I'd perfer they changed the Attack Progression to 1 6 11 16 or they will be weakening MC builds more than they should.

Having another Attack progression at 20 would be a mistake and would completely change the way characters are built

The Extra hook for Tempest III should be an Extra Hook on the second to last swing

PrEs should be opened up (and the enhancement system changed) to a system based on Feats Features Skill Ranks and occassionally Race. How the character is built should determine what PrEs and Enhancements the character is eligible for not what class they are. Certainly some classes would work better and certain Class Features may even be required (like rage for Frenzied Berzerker and Weapon Spec for Kensai) but the constant pigeon holing of characters based on Class is silly. If I want a high dex fighter why can't my Attribute Enhancements go to Dex?

Aesop

[bobbryan2]

Why would that be bad? They obviously get some other benefits by splashing. It's called a trade off. One more attack, versus +4 to 7 AC from monk splash, full umd or rogue skills. I'd call it a fair trade.

You're not getting it.

Their DPS would be HURT by gaining BAB. That is not a trade off. That's stupid design.