Devs, Please reconsider some of the Paladin AP prereqs for the PrE's......

[Mhykke]

When you look at the paladin class, almost all of the paladin traits are involved with APs. Extra Lay on Hands, extra smites, resistance aura, AC aura.... These were all before paladin improvements. The only thing I can think of not involved with action points is divine favor.

So devs, you've been adding things to the paladin class to make them more competitive, and have been doing a good job. The paladin is infinitely more fun to play than before all of the additions. But everything added has been AP involved. Divine righteousness, exalted smite, divine sacrifice, divine might (which was changed from pen and paper from a feat to action points, which really hurts now with the PrEs announced.)

And don't forget, there are the things paladins take that all other classes take, toughness enhancements, racial toughness, stat point bumps (charisma), racial aps, spell point aps for some....

Now we're going to have PrEs that, on top of everything, require the Faith II lines, which most paladins I know don't take. On top of some random ones thrown in there, like courage of good, or focus of good, etc. (In addition to the PrEs themselves costing 4/2/2 action points.)

Looking at the PrEs, I figured ok, I can take off a toughness, a stat of cha (thanks to a +3 cha tome), a resist of good, a bulwark....but then one PrE requires all 3 resist aura enhancements. Ok, maybe that's not what I'll do. One can look to remove an extra smite enhancement, but then they wouldn't qualify for exalted smite 4, which requires the corresponding tier of extra smite enhancement.

It's a huge burden on a class that has been improved solely through the use of action points. In order to make the class more competitive, the devs added new abilities through action points. Now, to get PrEs that every other class is getting, paladins are going to have to remove some of those abilities that helped bump them up. I'd ask you devs, please rethink the Faith 2 lines being required for all 3 PrEs at the very least. If not that, then maybe some of the random ones like energy of the templar 2, or courage 2.

And before anyone starts with the argument that everyone should give up something, please read again. I've already resigned myself to never getting the 3rd stat bump ap, to taking off a level of toughness (on a class that isn't exactly the most robust hit points wise), taking off from my armor class and taking two points off of saves (both of which, ac and saves, will affect others also in party). I'm more than willing to give up. It just seems like a bit too much going on with paladin action points.

[seldarin]

When you look at the paladin class, almost all of the paladin traits are involved with APs. Extra Lay on Hands, extra smites, resistance aura, AC aura.... These were all before paladin improvements. The only thing I can think of not involved with action points is divine favor.

So devs, you've been adding things to the paladin class to make them more competitive, and have been doing a good job. But everything added has been AP involved. Divine righteousness, exalted smite, divine sacrifice, divine might (which was changed from pen and paper from a feat to action points, which really hurts now with the PrEs announced.)

And don't forget, there are the things paladins take that all other classes take, toughness enhancements, racial toughness, stat point bumps (charisma), racial aps, spell point aps for some....

Now we're going to have PrEs that, on top of everything, require the Faith II lines, which most paladins I know don't take. On top of some random ones thrown in there, like courage of good, or focus of good, etc.

Looking at the PrEs, I figured ok, I can take off a toughness, a stat of cha (thanks to a +3 cha tome), a resist of good, a bulwark....but then one PrE requires all 3 resist aura enhancements. Ok, maybe that's not what I'll do. One can look to remove an extra smite enhancement, but then they wouldn't qualify for exalted smite 4, which requires a corresponding extra smite enhancement.

It's a huge burden on a class that has been improved solely through the use of action points. I'd ask you devs, please rethink the Faith 2 lines at least being required for all 3 PrEs at the very least. If not that, then maybe some of the random ones like energy of the templar 2, or courage 2.

And before anyone starts with the argument that everyone should give up something, please read again. Already considered giving up 2 resistance auras, a level of toughness, a stat point, and an ac aura....and still couldn't fit in the prereqs. I'm more than willing to give up. It just seems like a bit too much going on with paladin action points.

I quite agree. Admittedly i splash classed 2 lvls of rogue for UMD/DD/Search/OL, so my pally isnt quite what you would call a standard pally, more like a rogue with 14 lvls of pally

In order to meet PrE pre-reqs i would need to basically strip off half the pally abilities, something im not quite willing to do. It would basically make my pally a pally with evasion and rogue skills, with a couple of auras and the occasional raise dead, with pretty much no combat ability whatsoever.

Im not griping about the PrE pre-reqs, but for the sake of others perhaps alter the pre-reqs to make for a bit of variety rather than cookie cutters, and everyone the same.

So yes i agree, perhaps some reassment of the pre-reqs might be nice.

[Bronko]

When you look at the paladin class, almost all of the paladin traits are involved with APs. Extra Lay on Hands, extra smites, resistance aura, AC aura.... These were all before paladin improvements. The only thing I can think of not involved with action points is divine favor.

...

And before anyone starts with the argument that everyone should give up something, please read again. I've already resigned myself to never getting the 3rd stat bump ap, to taking off a level of toughness (on a class that isn't exactly the most robust hit points wise), taking off from my armor class and taking two points off of saves (both of which, ac and saves, will affect others also in party). I'm more than willing to give up. It just seems like a bit too much going on with paladin action points.

You make a valid argument and I agree. But before you get too worked up over it I would remind you that the proposed Paladin PrE are still subject to change. I remember once upon a time that Bulwark IV was supposed to cost a whopping 8 actions points before pleas from the community brought it down to 4.

I'm still excited about all the proposed changes coming in Mod 9. I think the Devs have done a pretty good job of planning, creating, and tweaking character customization. I remain optimistic that the playing content will be just as exciting.

[Vorn]

Nice post. I was doing the same sort of calculations for my three pallys and realizing how starved I was getting for AP's, even considering the 16 more from 4 levels and not taking the top tiers of things like auras, toughness, etc. Additionally there may be other things in those levels that are interesting to take. Maybe if the second faith tier were more attractive it would help? Or if LoH had some sort of regen ability as has been suggested elsewhere?

[Junts]

Nice post. I was doing the same sort of calculations for my three pallys and realizing how starved I was getting for AP's, even considering the 16 more from 4 levels and not taking the top tiers of things like auras, toughness, etc. Additionally there may be other things in those levels that are interesting to take. Maybe if the second faith tier were more attractive it would help? Or if LoH had some sort of regen ability as has been suggested elsewhere?

I reworked my aps a while ago to test the stuff I'd have to change to qualify for defender of siberys (eg, hit the pre-reqs and have enough ap after cap rise), this entailed:

droping extra smite 4
dropping exalted smite 3
dropping pally toughness 4
dropping racial toughness 3
dropping human greater adaptability: con
(i already wasn't taking pally cha 3)

For this, I was able to pick up:

resistance of good 1-3
human healing amp 1
divine sac 2 (shoulda had that already)
unyielding sovreignty
divine righteousness again (still dont use it a lot, though)

I will need to drop 1 ap to pick up focus/courage 1, bulwark 4 and the prc line itself. I concur these sacrifices are a little on the stiff side.

On the other hand, I wouldn't give up either the saves line or unyielding sovreignty: the exalted smite drop was simply not a very big deal, and sovreignty has proven repeatedly to be an amazing ability: its not just a full heal that wipes negative effects, its instant death penalty removal a nd regenerates w ithout shrining. even if faith2s weren't required, I'd no longer surrender that enhancement, and my guess is most of you wouldn't either if you tested it.

My main complaint is how hard it is to t ake all my stat ups. I wish that it was a bit easier to afford some of this stuff, as paladins are in fact too ap-restricted: enhancement lines for the prcs are not varied enough imo.

I wish that non-frontloaded prcs, like siberys and chalice, used a 1-2-3 progression, just those 2 ap saved would be a big deal (lines like tempest, which are frontloaded, should use the 4-2-2 model).