Cure Mass Scrolls?

[Khurse]

Hi all

Just curious- kinda returning player, my guild has largely disappeared so I've tried pugging the shroud a couple of times.
I don't have any Greensteel items (kept giving ingrediendts to Guildies who played more than I do) so have about 1500sp (with POPx)
So I'm running out of SP's whil throwing mass cures.
(usually maxed/empowered)

I've tried using scrolls, but am maxing at about the (very)low 30's-40'sfor the mass cure med, have had 2 clerics (on differnt runs) tell me their mass med off of scrolls hit for 150-200.

This seems (to me anyway) to be a sizable diffence (I don't think me casting mass cure med hits for that much unless it crits)
Is this just taking all the scroll enhancements, is there a greensteel item that helps with scroll use or am I missing something else?

Thanks for any help you can offer

[Angelus_dead]

Just curious- kinda returning player, my guild has largely disappeared so I've tried pugging the shroud a couple of times.
I don't have any Greensteel items (kept giving ingrediendts to Guildies who played more than I do) so have about 1500sp (with POPx)
So I'm running out of SP's whil throwing mass cures.
(usually maxed/empowered)

1500 sp is more than enough to solo-heal Shroud, if you use the right techniques. That's a bit difficult, but normally there will be another cleric besides just you, so you should have no problem at all.

Check on some things:
1. Got Life Magic IV? +40%
2. Got Super Pot VI? +50%
3. Have some kind of Empower or Maximize?
4. Know how to use trees and pools?

If you are unable to heal just from spellpoints, the next step is to go to scrolls of Heal. Mass Cure scrolls is not much worth it there. You should probably take at least 1 enhancement for Wand Mastery 10% (and maybe more if you decide you'll use many scrolls)

[samho]

Hi all

Just curious- kinda returning player, my guild has largely disappeared so I've tried pugging the shroud a couple of times.
I don't have any Greensteel items (kept giving ingrediendts to Guildies who played more than I do) so have about 1500sp (with POPx)
So I'm running out of SP's whil throwing mass cures.
(usually maxed/empowered)

I've tried using scrolls, but am maxing at about the (very)low 30's-40'sfor the mass cure med, have had 2 clerics (on differnt runs) tell me their mass med off of scrolls hit for 150-200.

This seems (to me anyway) to be a sizable diffence (I don't think me casting mass cure med hits for that much unless it crits)
Is this just taking all the scroll enhancements, is there a greensteel item that helps with scroll use or am I missing something else?

Thanks for any help you can offer

Unless I'm serious misunderstanding about how DDO system works, there's no way a mass cure med scroll can hit 150-200 per person.

That's how you calculate it's effect:

Mass Med Cure Scroll was level 11 scroll, so the base healing amount was 4+2d6+11 (means 17~27)

Assume you take Wand Mastery IV (+40%) to get best result from scroll healing

So your scroll output (before putting modifier from the person who got healed) was 23~37


Now if the person who have the finger necklace WITH Healing Amplificate 20% as well as Human Improved Recovery III (30%), it can only add up to 39~62 range.

Unless there's something wrong in my calculation, or Turbine change how feat/enhancement working which I didn't pay attention, I don't see any chance a mass cure med scroll could hit number higher than the one I calculated. (Unless he's casting it on some specific monster...)

****

Before anyone step in and say Wand Highten may help, NO, it won't. (Again, unless Turbine change it recentlly .. even if it does, the number only raise slightly, not sizeable)

[Angelus_dead]

Unless I'm serious misunderstanding about how DDO system works, there's no way a mass cure med scroll can hit 150-200 per person.

Since Heal scrolls are by far the most popularly used, it seems likely those clerics were telling him what they get from Heal scrolls. That would be 110 base, 154 with Wand Master IV, and possibly 184-203 if the target has Healing Amp items and/or Human Recovery.

[Samadhi]

So I'm running out of SP's whil throwing mass cures.
(usually maxed/empowered)

Use empower healing only. Much better heal::mana ratio than maximize or regular empower. Cheaper heals -> not running out of mana so fast.

[samho]

Angelus_dead:

Yes I think it's the only possible reason they can give such number, however it's silly when he did stat his question was "mass cure med" ...

Use empower healing only. Much better heal::mana ratio than maximize or regular empower. Cheaper heals -> not running out of mana so fast.

Empower Healing only get better Heal/Mana ratio on Heal (the level 6 one) spell against Maximize since maximize doesn't affect it. Otherwise, Maximize's performance (for mass cure, of course) are on par with Empower Healing; sometimes, it does better (slightly), on mass cure serious and higher.

[Angelus_dead]

Use empower healing only. Much better heal::mana ratio than maximize or regular empower. Cheaper heals -> not running out of mana so fast.

No. As long as the base cost of the spell is more than 8 (Empower) or 13 (Maximize), then adding the metamagic increases the efficiency. Since Mass Cures already cost at least 30 sp, that's true for both.

With no meta, MCMW is 47 hp / 35 sp = 1.34
With emp heal, 70 hp / 45 sp = 1.56
Emp Heal + Maximize, 118 hp / 70 sp = 1.68
Just Maximize: 94 hp / 60 sp = 1.56

The only way it could be a mistake to add Max or Emp is if you waste it bringing people to above 100% hp. As a target, a good melee crew can kill Arraetrikos having taken under 3000 damage to each of them.

[gfunk]

Since Heal scrolls are by far the most popularly used, it seems likely those clerics were telling him what they get from Heal scrolls. That would be 110 base, 154 with Wand Master IV, and possibly 184-203 if the target has Healing Amp items and/or Human Recovery.

heal scrolls can hit for up to around 377 (human) and 491 (human monk) if that target has all the healing amp items and enhancements available, and the cleric is using wand/scroll mastery IV.

Unfortunately, not many people use healing amp. It helps a tonne. I think its great for melee types who want to do a bit of self healing (my pure fighter with current healing spec has had cure serious potions hit as high as 61 points. A cleric once hit my fighter with a heal (spell) for 2502 points.) Clerics would save a lot of resources if more people took healing amp.

[Samadhi]

No. As long as the base cost of the spell is more than 8 (Empower) or 13 (Maximize), then adding the metamagic increases the efficiency. Since Mass Cures already cost at least 30 sp, that's true for both.

With no meta, MCMW is 47 hp / 35 sp = 1.34
With emp heal, 70 hp / 45 sp = 1.56
Emp Heal + Maximize, 118 hp / 70 sp = 1.68
Just Maximize: 94 hp / 60 sp = 1.56

The only way it could be a mistake to add Max or Emp is if you waste it bringing people to above 100% hp. As a target, a good melee crew can kill Arraetrikos having taken under 3000 damage to each of them.

Wow, I can't believe I get to say this but: No, you are wrong. Let me clarify, because your initial assessment is correct. Just because maximize is effective, though, does not it is the MOST effective. (As I stated, empower healing is the MOST effective <implied stand alone>). I never said that maximize was worse than nothing; all I stated was that empower healing was the best.

You are adjusting empower heal by a full +10 mana. Any cleric that is concerned with mana efficeincy is going to have points into the cleric enhancements. This means the mana cost will be lower; the ratio will be higher. And using both simultaneously is WAY over-healing for a an average group (at least based on Ghallanda data).

[moops]

Add to the above excellent advice. . .Make sure that you or the other Cleric aren't overhealing on each other--it is a rare, rare occasion when you would both need to be throwing Mass heals at once. Cleric's need to trust that the other CLerics can do their job.

I also noticed that a lot of inexperienced clerics get in the shroud and heal with Empower and Maximize both on because I think that they are afraid of someone dying in part 4, and sometimes part 5.---This is not a Cleric problem--The Melee play a part in this as well--if they take that much damage--they probably should not be meleeing the Fiend, or should pull out and check that they have all their gear and buffs on.

I use the Cure Mass Mod Scrolls to top off on the Devil fights, and in high evasion groups between Cure Mass Light spells when no one is taking much damage. The reason I use these in shroud when I can--is that sometimes the party gets werid lag spikes in part 4 and I have to then use more SP than usual.

My Clerics have 1520 and 1545 SP, with a little practice, you'll get it down.

[Thrudh]

Yep, A_D... you're wrong

#1 your numbers are wrong... Clerics can lower their empower healing costs through enhancements, but not maximize or empower

#2 quite often you DO heal above 100%... because of lag or because of a multiple fireball hit to the whole group, or when the blades come in.

With Empower Healing III enhancement, it only costs me 6 extra SP to do 50% more healing... That is more efficient than 25 extra SP for 100% more healing, especially when a maximized cure will definitely take a few people over 100% healed...

To the OP, if you can afford it, swap out empower with empower healing, and play with that a bit. Try healing with just empower healing, or just maximize and see how that works for you...

Try alternating with heal scrolls and the heal spell if only one or two people are low instead of throwing another mass cure. Ask the wizard/sorc to throw down a fog spell (20% miss chance for the Pit Fiend) or ask them to throw an occasional mass protect from elements

[Galantdramon]

I've been running the Shroud recently on my C16, and he has right at 1500 sp.

My strategy, from when I started (way back when on a small island named Korthos), was to either top people off with a cheap wand rather than a spell (between/after fights) and to be able to take those fools who get hit hard and heal them quickly...for this, once I hit the 'base break even' I started using Maximize.

Note I also use Quicken, simply because I find missing a cure often leads to deaths, and no amount of Concentration is perfect.

After a discussion with a long term cleric friend (when I was hitting end game), and comparing enhancements (my default at the time was extend/quicken/max unless I was short buffing after a shrine) I added Emp.Heal to my list.

Yes, you can take Emp.Heal, and then the Imp.E.Heal line, and lower your cost, but rather than that (since I took E.H late) I went with Cure IV, Cure Crit% III and now, at my 64th point, Cure Crit Multiplier III...combine that with my Greater Potency VII and I do some rather heavy cures.

So far, working the Shroud, I generally use Mass Cure Light unless people are getting pounded, a heal scroll if things are slow (I have wand/scroll 2) with the odd Heal spell (which did 405 base and 708 crit before I finished my crit line) and I do fine.

I seldom need anything like a mana pot even at the end, with the party dog-piling the boss and I and my partner trading off (one cures while the other waits, then the first hits the water while I cure) and it goes smoothly.

As a note, run across the corner of the water then back up, and you get the healing both directions...tumble if you can use it seems to be even faster since you don't waste run time...the trees are similar, if you can tumble/jump on an angled piece of stone, so you 'slide/glance off' then you can get spell points back faster.

As for managing my sp, I leave Emp.Heal on pretty much always...when the party is fighting I either run E.H + Max if the hits are coming hard, or turn my Max off and just use E.H if they are light.

This has worked so far in every Shroud I've been in as a Cleric, but I admit I've seen decent groups, good groups, great groups and <bleep>y groups since it came out, and have been lucky enough to avoid the 'doomed to wipe' groups so far.

The biggest thing to learn about keeping your sp from running out before the fight does, is to know the fight...how hard do the mobs hit, how often do they hit, and what cure types are needed...Heal is very cheap compared to a Max/Emp-Mass Cure, but if multiple people are being hit at once, then the mass cure is likely the most efficient.

Another thing to learn, is how much your cure does...do some tests, go get a few friends, and go to an unused PvP area for some 'safe' testing...learn exactly how much 'red' is restored when you toss those cures, so you can -relax- while keeping people alive...panic burns more sp than anything else in the game.

For example, my Heal does 405 points...that means anyone with fewer than 405 hit points is fully healed from one cast...and if I can crit, I can heal pretty much anything full (but never count on crits).

This means, anything but the highest hp targets I can fully heal, so in a solo beatdown, I can wait until half/three-quarters red gone, drop one heal, and his red is full again...unless he is getting hit every 2 seconds for 50%-75% of his total health, I can generally just drop a cheap heal as needed, with a mass cure for an emergency.

And since I -know- this, from long practice, I can -relax- and concentrate on watching the bars and tossing stuff as needed, knowing that everyone except the WF Barbarian is going to be fully (or close enough that it doesn't matter) healed by that spell, and if needed, I can toss a second spell at him every so often to finish the job.

So, to sum up:

Don't sweat your numbers, go do some practice and find your comfort zone for healing...then cure from there.

Learn the fight, and heal accordingly for that fight, no point pounding out 2000 point mega-cures if a 50 point band-aid is fine.

Listen to all of us, then go find what works for -you-, so you can tell the next newbie how to walk ''The Only True Path of Healing" while we all give you grief over not doing it 'our' way.


Galantdramon
-----------------
A bunch of toons on Argonnessen, none named Galantdramon for some reason.

[Khurse]

Thanks all- no I definitely need to work on better use of my sps (don't have empower heal, I use max and empower as thwy work better for the BB's no one in a group ever asks me to cast..) It was just that I had complained (although it was more of a whine) that the cure med scrolss didn't see worth casting, and had someone tell me that he could hit the numbers mentioned. A second Shroud run I asked another cleric- and he said the same thing.

It's entirely possible I somehow misunderstood, or that they were just cruel and maliciously hoping I'd post here and look foolish.

In any event I've become (somewhat) convinced I should drop something for empower healing, and then see about the SP reduction line for it.

Thanks for the pointers!

[Samadhi]

Thanks all- no I definitely need to work on better use of my sps (don't have empower heal, I use max and empower as thwy work better for the BB's no one in a group ever asks me to cast..) It was just that I had complained (although it was more of a whine) that the cure med scrolss didn't see worth casting, and had someone tell me that he could hit the numbers mentioned. A second Shroud run I asked another cleric- and he said the same thing.

It's entirely possible I somehow misunderstood, or that they were just cruel and maliciously hoping I'd post here and look foolish.

In any event I've become (somewhat) convinced I should drop something for empower healing, and then see about the SP reduction line for it.

Thanks for the pointers!

My cleric (human) uses mental toughness, improved mental toughness, maximize, empower, empower healing, hieghten, and quicken. Most people prefer extend to hieghten. Empower healing and quicken are probably the most important for raid healing though.

[BlackSteel]

I only use empower healing when in healbot mode on my cleric; no quicken, max, or empowered turned on.

On top of this, I try to only spam mass cure lights and cure mods. Heck, I dont have anything higher than mod on my hotbars.

[gamblerjoe]

mass cure scrolls are weak, and the only thing u can do about it is increase it 10-40% through the use of action points. you just have to bite the bullet and use them. they come in handy, and the healing adds up. even if you do not want to incur the expense, u have to anticipate when it is going to be shrewd. if u do it right u will minimize your use and save mana pots. its ok to pick your battles, but as a healer, it is your responsibilty to err to the side of watefullness with consumables.

personally i dont hold back with my healbot. i just spam them in shroud and vod (same on all of my toons w UMD) because i just dont care.

[Khurse]

Seems to be differnt now, when I first ran the shroud we'd usually just throw a healer on each of 2-3 tanks,so it was easy to time my heal spells/scrolls . Now it seems everyone wants the mass cures, (I can see how they're more efficient though).

Anyway a former guildmate asked me to try and join some guild (Unbreakable I think they're called?) Talked to a few people and apparently they're a bit elite, so I'm trying to go back and remember (or more correctly) find out how to do some of this stuff so it works best. ( And why I was failing so badly at making mass cure scrolls work)

So now to figure out what I'll drop for empower healing..

Thanks again for the advice!

[Angelus_dead]

I never said that maximize was worse than nothing; all I stated was that empower healing was the best.

No: you stated that adding Maximize reduces efficiency. In reality, Emp Heal gives 1.70 hp/sp and Emp Heal + Max gives 1.78 hp/sp. That is if the cost for Emp Heal is only 6 sp, and if Maximize still costs the full 25 sp (which even clerics can reduce using VOD gloves).

As to overheal: the spell does 118 hp, so whether or not that will overheal depends on the hp of the melee characters, and your own reaction skills.

PS. The upcoming cleric capstone will greatly reduce the chance of overheal in those situations, because you can safely allow the lowest-hp melees to get down to 0 before healing anyone.

[Samadhi]

No: you stated that adding Maximize reduces efficiency. .

Where did I say that?

[Angelus_dead]

So now to figure out what I'll drop for empower healing..

You can drop Empower Spell. There's hardly any reason for a cleric to have Empower if you already have Maximize... and Maximize is just better.

The difference between a BB that does 240 or 300 is not important; most likely, it will takes the same number of hits to kill any certain monster.