Would a enhanced random loot system improve population and add new spark of excitment

[Angelus_dead]

2. Add improved disruption at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs undead.

3. Add improved smite at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs constructs.

Those suggestions aren't specifically good, but the idea behind them has merit.

You see, the real killer to the attractiveness of random chests in DDO was the inadvertent loot power plateau:
Compared to D&D, DDO characters gain items at about half the level a D&D character would. In D&D you'd get a +5 rapier at level 16-19, while in DDO you get it at level 8-10. By itself that increased availability isn't a large problem (although there are assorted negative side effects). But the bigger problem is the inconsistency in that the devs failed to continue increasing item supply as the level cap went up past 10.

You see, level 8-10 DDO characters gain loot seen at level 16-20 in D&D.
But level 12-16 DDO characters gain loot seen at level 16-20 in D&D.

What happened is the developers halved the level at which you can obtain loot, but not for items of above D&D level 20 ("epic" items). Just look at the enhancement bonuses of weapons compared to the level required to equip them:
Level 1 = +1
Level 2 = +2
Level 4 = +3
Level 6 = +4
Level 8 = +5
Level 10 = +5
Level 14 = +5
Level 16 = +5

Instead of the random loot continuing to improve when you advance, it hits a wall and the pattern stops. Sure, there are some ways that random items at like level 16 are better than level 12, but that's less of an improvement than you see going from level 6 to 10. Really, if level 8 guys got +5s, then level 16 guys should at least have +6s and +7s by now.

The problem was unintentionally illustrated in this post, where someone complained that his level 10 characters couldn't enter Reaver's Refuge. He felt that melee characters would do fine there, so long as they had ML 10 gear, and he saw level 16 gear as only a little better. Of course, the fact that level 10 characters even want to go there indicates a failure in game design...

[osirisisis]

The short answer is no. Increasing Random loot will not attract more players to the game.

It seems you failed to read the p.s part of my post.

Please go hassle someone else.

[Kintro]

Instead of the random loot continuing to improve when you advance, it hits a wall and the pattern stops. Sure, there are some ways that random items at like level 16 are better than level 12, but that's less of an improvement than you see going from level 6 to 10. Really, if level 8 guys got +5s, then level 16 guys should at least have +6s and +7s by now.

If we could get quivers to hold swords we could run around with +2-3 weapons of greater bane and effectively have +6s and +7s aslong as we remembered what key we'd hotkeyed each weapon to

[dragonofsteel2]

I used this chart because I can not find any other charts or websites online that graph MMO population... If you can find a better source please post a link.

Notice how population is at its highest when Gaints caves CO6 and PoP loot runs were popular and then and then when loot runs and random loot tables head south so does population.

Back in the CO6, giants caves, and early Giant hold days it seems players were looting constantly. Loot runs ran rapid. Double, and Triple LFM for loot run quests were common place.

Fine can't find a better chart, but using this example co6,giant caves and pop were the highest population is just bull. First the game first up tic is more then likely cause by the new release people wanting to try it out, then sharp turn down was from the easy nature to run through all the content. (2006 release) Why do I analyze it this way, maybe because I have been here since the beginning and using the chart with what I knew went on at the same time, not some goofy guessing game. Second pop loot runs can not even be analyze by this chart since it stops right when pop come out and there is no information to it. Do some real research check the release date of the gainthold mod compare to when the chart stops with gianthold.

With this said this chart to incomplete. The chart would need lot more information to analyze it properly. Though you just posted almost the same thing couple days ago, with some minor changes. First post do not agree with and second post do not agree with. Powering up instant kill weapons is not the answer, but instead adding some nice dps options with them would be the way to go.

[GoldyGopher]

Since the short answer is considered Trolling by the Author of the OP allow me to interject a much longer and more detailed analysis of the original post.

Note: This is not intended as re post in that it has been altered to a good degree from the original (if there is any digression please remove the early vers.)

This is indeed a repost of the original; you have lengthened the post and have attempted to clarify your positions. Yet within the post you have not changed your positions, nor have you altered your analysis, nor have you taken into account the negative criticism of your other post.

There is nothing wrong with updating your work, actually it happens all the time in the scholarly field. I am in the process of writing a Second Edition of a work I wrote ten years ago. Much of the changes within my book is based upon the feedback I have received.

As we begin looking at your post where is any consideration of what I said in a previous note? Or what other people said in your previous threads.

osirisisis,
In July 2007 we saw the last of our Monthly Updates. They were no longer monthly but Turbine officially discontinued the practice of updates between Module releases.

In August 2007 we saw a server merge combining 14 servers in 5.

In September 2007 we were introduced to the Black Abbot in Module 5.

Those three aspects probably affected far more players than the introducing of Crafting in Module 6. I state this as my opinion based upon my friends and guildies who have left the game over the past three years. (We are close enough to the Anniversary for me to call it three years). I do keep track. I also keep track of the reason they are leaving. Not one individual sited crafting, actually several sited crafting as a reason they were going to other games, as in they have it. Most people sited personal problems, lack of “fun” in game, or as one individual noted money (they were getting rid of cable, broadband and ddo)

Without looking at other potential issues/problems/criteria how are you sure that what you say is any more or less valid?

[First of all my credentials

I have averaged about 140 hours a month of DDO for over 2 1/2 years. Over 4200 hours of DDO lifetime. I am 32 years young. I have been a gamer for over 25 years

For what you are writing your credentials are only important to you and many people will disregard what you say simple because of the message it implies. "I am greater than you so listen to what I say."

You see I too can post some lofty credentials. I have been a D&D player for over 30 years, I was taught to play Dungeons and Dragons by Dave Arneson, I spent years playing online Muds, was a “Founder” for AOL’s Neverwinter Nights, play tester for…..
While I can continue my credentials all it really says is “I am a Long Winded Gas bag who likes DDO”. It however neither validates or invalidates my opinion of the game.

Overview

DDO is like organ system in any living thing. All organs work with a job to support the system to keep it alive, healthy and growing.

Your description here, while it convenes what you are attempting to portray, technically is inaccurate.

If we compare Dungeons and Dragons Online:Stormreach to a living organism it’s many systems and functions can easily be compared to vital organ systems. Rough needs a little polish but more accurate than your statement.

One of the vital organ systems of DDO is the RANDOM LOOT TABLE.

Why?

The random loot table is like a lotto. When a player opens a chest or gets a end reward he or she has a chance to get something so rare and valuable that there is great excitement in the anticipation. That item can make them feel special as they tell stories about where they got it and show it off to friends. This excitement is a major part of the "ENJOYMENT OF THE DDO EXPERIENCE"

This anticipation and excitement is a reason why other forms of entertainment have excelled in the example of Sport cards, lotto, gaming cards, raffles etc

Here you make a major mistake in attempting to convey your opinion. Rather than stating that it is your opinion you claim that is fact. Because what you say is not a fact it further lowers peoples support and starts everyone down the road to antagonism early on.

Notice in these charts at the link below that U will find that DDO population was highest when Loot Runs were at there highest.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart3.html

I used this chart because I can not find any other charts or websites online that graph MMO population... If you can find a better source please post a link.

Notice how population is at its highest when Gaints caves CO6 and PoP loot runs were popular and then and then when loot runs and random loot tables head south so does population.

Back in the CO6, giants caves, and early Giant hold days it seems players were looting constantly. Loot runs ran rapid. Double, and Triple LFM for loot run quests were common place.

Ah yes, back to SirBruce's MMOG Chart. While many people have told you that the information is inaccurate you have held some die-hard fanaticism implying that it must be accurate and real because it is posted on a web-site.

Simply put the information posted on the MMOGCHART is inaccurate at best and in my opinion completely wrong.

If we assume that DDO has held steady at 35,000 subscriptions since the last report date of April 2007, how many people should you expect to see in the “who list” on the server. Take 35,000 and remove 25% for dead members, and 25% for people listed anonymously which leaves 19,637. Take 19,637 and divided by 5 severs leaving an average of 3937 players on each server. Divide 3937 by 7 days and 24 hours leaving us 23.43 people. Multiple that number by 10 hours leaving us with an average number of players 234.30 player per hour we should expect to see on the server, using some basic statistical knowledge this would give us a low of approximately 117 characters and a high of 469 characters per hour when we check the “Who list”. Checks Khyber at 1300 EST on a Monday after maintenance and finds 187 people. Now as a Guy who frequently checks the “who list” for the number of people logged in I find the variations from 190 to 850 this statistically suggests an Average of 411 players. Using 411 players in the “who list” on average in reverse accounts for a subscriber base of ~54,000 players.
Now my numbers take a couple of assumptions into account.
1) Dead Members. Dead Members are people who are paying their dues but do not utilize the resources for the period in question. I have used 25% for this study; however the average for other similar industries is 33%, but I could not find the MMO variation on that number, so I went conservatively at 25%.
2) Number of people playing who selected to be anonymous and not listed in the “who list”. Based upon my personal experience the number right now appears to be about 25% but there is no solid evidence in any direction on that number. As this needs to be accounted for I selected 25%.
3) This does not include the players on the European Servers or the Asian Servers.
All in all I think my estimate of 54,000 is very conservative. Rumor has it the number is between 85,000 and 125,000 but that is just the rumor from people in the industry or closer ties than Sir Bruce.

Power 5, Wounding of Puncturing, and crafting.


This organ system took some what of a hit in mod 4 with +1 loot weekends.

Why?

Power 5 were the big craze and everyone want them. They were rare, but Turbine's first mistake was that instead of keeping them rare like at the beginning mod 4, they made them more common as chest lvl increased. With +1 loot weekends there was a large influx of power 5's and the excitement got diluted. Another very entrusting corespondent to this was that toward the end of mod 4 population started to drop from its highest point ever.

Here again you are suggesting your opinion is indeed fact.

The Power 5 have never been universally desired, many members of the “Raiding Guilds” actually despise them. I myself have probably feed my “Vorpal of Maiming” weapons to the alters in the Shroud to repower energy cells than most players will ever see Vorpals of any type.
Now I am going to tell you that I am a Twilight Avenger and that we are a little nuts, slightly elitist, and don’t do things in the same way as many guilds or pug groups. We generally in our runs don’t use the Power 5, don’t need um. We run the shroud in all guild runs in about 35 minutes, give or take a minute or two. These are not speed runs, we loot every chest, we shrine at all the shrines and buff and the what not. We however don’t have a single Vorpal weapon and probably might only have one or two W/P rapiers which I doubt are being used (Inkblack can tell you if he still uses his).
I hate to say this but in my opinion the Power 5 allow too many bad character designs/concepts to survive far too long, when they should be rerolled. I have watched to many parties fall because they couldn't roll a 20 or critical hit where good tactics and solid game play easily succeed. The Marut in POP is a great example, The Caster stands outside throws the switch while the rogue and ranger try attacking with smiters.... Bring the caster in, throw a firewall and fight in the firewall. Yes it might cut down on the Ranger's kill count but you going to succeed more often that way.

This organ system took a big hit in mod 6 with crafting.

I want to state now that I'm not against crafting. I think it was a great addition to the game, But I think the problem lies in that crafted gear replaced almost all random loot gear. Even LVL 16 random loot gear in almost all cases. Instead of crafting complementing a great random loot system it almost destroyed a weakened random loot system.

You make the assumption that LVL 16 items are "better" than LVL 14 or lower items. I think this is a fallacy in the system and as a very apparent example lets look at LVL 15 clothing/jewelry vs. LVL 13. A Level 13 Item, +6 Wise Necklace, vs. a level 15 Item, +6 Wise Necklace of Whatever +3. The whatever +3 part is useless in the game, if that skill is important you will have an item for it (Perform, Haggle, Disable, Spot...). However as we move up the scale a Level 19 Item (+4 Wise Necklace of whatever +10) would be more useful depending but that all depends on your character design and slots.

Tier 3 weapons basically decreased what I would guess to be about 80% of the value of the random loot table with lvl 16 loot included and today in most cases a mineral 2 weapon is more efficient then all most any weapon in the random system.

With the progession system we have today what LVL 15/16 item that doesn't hold value today would be worth something? I spent hours trying to think of something, anything and I got a blank.

Now I know its a natural progress that as lvl cap increases higher lvl gear should be stronger then lesser lvl gear, but instead of having a natural growth in gear strength we saw a new system introduced that some what destroyed the old system instead of complementing it.

Crafting, random loot, and raid loot should work in a synergistic manner all equal and all very important. As it stands now it is very lopsided

I might be inclined to agree that is kind of off center, but very lopsided I completely disagree with.

The final blow wounding of puncturing.

Wounding of puncturing is like a mutation that turned out to be a great evolution.
It is the last part of random loot table organ that is keeping it alive. It is that one gem in the ruff. It is the one pull left in the random loot table that has any real degree of excitement to it.

MARK MY WORDS .....NERF W/P AND THIS ORGAN SYSTEM WILL FAIL .

Considered them marked. But again we have a disagreement. W/P is currently valuable because as individuals it lets people feel more superior. My Kill count was higher than yours so I am that much more useful. This more than any other factor has increased the value of the W/P.

Without much ado I would like to discuss a character I saw over the past week in a shroud run, a 14 Barbarian/2 Monk (Okay not bad so far) wielding a w/p rapier, a madstone shield and in either mithral or regular full plate. Other than the player who in all of Eberron would find that useful in anyway. I mean I was at a complete loss for words when the player asked what he could do better, so not even the player thought it was useful. The problem is this is what players are doing, because they so believe you must have a W/P weapon.

I have four and three of which are in the bank, the fourth is out on loan. I do more damage and generally kill the trash mobs faster with other weapons. There is an exception; Orthons so instead of 10 seconds to kill it takes 15 or 20, big deal.

So now we move on to resolution

I have to say I disagree with everything you suggest.

1. Reduce drop rate of power 5's back to where they were when giant hold was released rewarding all players who have played up to this point who have them. Add improved power 5's RR LVL 16 or 18 regular at the old mod 4 drop rate.

The Drop rates haven’t been increased we are on higher level loot tables (14 vs. 19) when you compare pre-gianthold and post Module 8. As the Power 5’s rate of drop hasn’t increased lower level quests.

2. Add improved disruption at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs undead.

3. Add improved smite at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs constructs.

4. Add improved banish at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs banishable mobs .

And this accomplishes…. The higher level mobs are far more resilient and protected, yes you have a 1 in 10,000 chance of it going off. (Think Tier 3 positive in the Subterrane).

5. of all the power 5's I think vorpal has some beat the odd and held it ground. I would continue with the theme add improved vorpal at RR lvl 16 regular 18 but I think it may need something besides vorpals on 19 and 20 due to that maybe to strong unless the mob death ward theme continues to some degree.

6. I think paralyzing needs some major help in that paralyzed mobs should lose all dex bounce to AC and add improved para with a high dice check at a +1 RR 16 or normal 18.

So what do you do against mobs with Deathblock and FOM. We already see these in Module 8 content (FOM in Module 4 and maybe earlier).

7. Remove the prefix suffix rule to add more VERITY and even tho I would make them 10 time more rare then the newly rarer made improved power 5's make it possible to have a + 1 vorpal-paralyzer min LVL 16, a greater undead bane disruptor, ect.
This would add great great excitement into the loot table.

I doubt it since now we have literally a thousand bad combinations per one good combination you would have ten a hundred thousand bad combinations vs. one good combinations. Yes I know that is an exaggeration the problem is I don’t know how big of an exaggeration that is.

8. Make it possible to have keen stack with improved crit since in almost all cases feats stack with effects so that one out of 35 w/p's would be a keen w/p doubling the puncturing effect

Again what are you accomplishing other than making the game designers come up with a way to make what you want to do impossible?

9. Add Superior bane to the pool at +1 RR 12 and +1 lvl 14 normal thats +10 10D6.

That is too powerful of weapon and will lead to further expansion of hitpoints of monsters we fight.

If you have some ideas please reply with them.

Many people have but you keep posting new topics with the same ideas and expect people to agree with your position or repost what they have already posted.

Close

I think DDO is not going to reach it's full potential in a crafting grind of clones and drones where players level, craft, raid loot, and cap all turning out to be clones and drones of the crafting grind with the most the same crafted gear.

I do think that DDO will grow in a context of a great balance of a improved random loot system, with the same crafting system we have now, strong population for grouping playability, and regular refreshment of new content, with a strong economy based in trade.

The economy is soooo broken in DDO that it is almost beyond repair; that’s one of the problems in the game. Too many people are in the Ultra Rich category. If I want a +1 Ice Great Axe for my new character I can drop 250,000 plat without even batting a eye that more than people pay for a +5 Icy Burst Great Axe in many cases.

P.S.

For those of you mindless troll who have nothing to do but bash posts to get attention... I relay this message: if U troll my post and reply with nothing but your opinion and state no reason why you think the way you do to back your reply then don't waste the space on this post......... I will not reply to mindless flames .. but if you come with logic and good reason for your disagreement of this post I will more then happy to reply

The problem so far is that people who don't agree with you consider trolls regardless of their response.

I could go into far more detail, but to what end. You appear to have already made you mind up and with what has been posted in your other threads and indicated, like the rock of Gibraltar, you will not be moving.