Would a enhanced random loot system improve population and add new spark of excitment

[osirisisis]

Note: This is not intended as re post in that it has been altered to a good degree from the original (if there is any digression please remove the early vers.)

First of all my credentials

I have averaged about 140 hours a month of DDO for over 2 1/2 years. Over 4200 hours of DDO lifetime. I am 32 years young. I have been a gamer for over 25 years

Overview

DDO is like organ system in any living thing. All organs work with a job to support the system to keep it alive, healthy and growing.

One of the vital organ systems of DDO is the RANDOM LOOT TABLE.

Why?

The random loot table is like a lotto. When a player opens a chest or gets a end reward he or she has a chance to get something so rare and valuable that there is great excitement in the anticipation. That item can make them feel special as they tell stories about where they got it and show it off to friends. This excitement is a major part of the "ENJOYMENT OF THE DDO EXPERIENCE"

This anticipation and excitement is a reason why other forms of entertainment have excelled in the example of Sport cards, lotto, gaming cards, raffles etc

Notice in these charts at the link below that U will find that DDO population was highest when Loot Runs were at there highest.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart3.html

I used this chart because I can not find any other charts or websites online that graph MMO population... If you can find a better source please post a link.

Notice how population is at its highest when Gaints caves CO6 and PoP loot runs were popular and then and then when loot runs and random loot tables head south so does population.

Back in the CO6, giants caves, and early Giant hold days it seems players were looting constantly. Loot runs ran rapid. Double, and Triple LFM for loot run quests were common place.

Power 5, Wounding of Puncturing, and crafting.


This organ system took some what of a hit in mod 4 with +1 loot weekends.

Why?

Power 5 were the big craze and everyone want them. They were rare, but Turbine's first mistake was that instead of keeping them rare like at the beginning mod 4, they made them more common as chest lvl increased. With +1 loot weekends there was a large influx of power 5's and the excitement got diluted. Another very entrusting corespondent to this was that toward the end of mod 4 population started to drop from its highest point ever.

This organ system took a big hit in mod 6 with crafting.

I want to state now that I'm not against crafting. I think it was a great addition to the game, But I think the problem lies in that crafted gear replaced almost all random loot gear. Even LVL 16 random loot gear in almost all cases. Instead of crafting complementing a great random loot system it almost destroyed a weakened random loot system.

Tier 3 weapons basically decreased what I would guess to be about 80% of the value of the random loot table with lvl 16 loot included and today in most cases a mineral 2 weapon is more efficient then all most any weapon in the random system.

Now I know its a natural progress that as lvl cap increases higher lvl gear should be stronger then lesser lvl gear, but instead of having a natural growth in gear strength we saw a new system introduced that some what destroyed the old system instead of complementing it.

Crafting, random loot, and raid loot should work in a synergistic manner all equal and all very important. As it stands now it is very lopsided

The final blow wounding of puncturing.

Wounding of puncturing is like a mutation that turned out to be a great evolution.
It is the last part of random loot table organ that is keeping it alive. It is that one gem in the ruff. It is the one pull left in the random loot table that has any real degree of excitement to it.

MARK MY WORDS .....NERF W/P AND THIS ORGAN SYSTEM WILL FAIL .

So now we move on to resolution

1. Reduce drop rate of power 5's back to where they were when giant hold was released rewarding all players who have played up to this point who have them. Add improved power 5's RR LVL 16 or 18 regular at the old mod 4 drop rate.

2. Add improved disruption at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs undead.

3. Add improved smite at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs constructs.

4. Add improved banish at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs banishable mobs .

5. of all the power 5's I think vorpal has some beat the odd and held it ground. I would continue with the theme add improved vorpal at RR lvl 16 regular 18 but I think it may need something besides vorpals on 19 and 20 due to that maybe to strong unless the mob death ward theme continues to some degree.

6. I think paralyzing needs some major help in that paralyzed mobs should lose all dex bounce to AC and add improved para with a high dice check at a +1 RR 16 or normal 18.

7. Remove the prefix suffix rule to add more VERITY and even tho I would make them 10 time more rare then the newly rarer made improved power 5's make it possible to have a + 1 vorpal-paralyzer min LVL 16, a greater undead bane disruptor, ect.
This would add great great excitement into the loot table.

8. Make it possible to have keen stack with improved crit since in almost all cases feats stack with effects so that one out of 35 w/p's would be a keen w/p doubling the puncturing effect

9. Add Superior bane to the pool at +1 RR 12 and +1 lvl 14 normal thats +10 10D6.

If you have some ideas please reply with them.


Close

I think DDO is not going to reach it's full potential in a crafting grind of clones and drones where players level, craft, raid loot, and cap all turning out to be clones and drones of the crafting grind with the most the same crafted gear.

I do think that DDO will grow in a context of a great balance of a improved random loot system, with the same crafting system we have now, strong population for grouping playability, and regular refreshment of new content, with a strong economy based in trade.

P.S.

For those of you mindless troll who have nothing to do but bash posts to get attention... I relay this message: if U troll my post and reply with nothing but your opinion and state no reason why you think the way you do to back your reply then don't waste the space on this post......... I will not reply to mindless flames .. but if you come with logic and good reason for your disagreement of this post I will more then happy to reply

[Turial]

....
6. I think paralyzing needs some major help in that paralyzed mobs should lose all dex bounce to AC and add improved para with a high dice check at a +1 RR 16 or normal 18.
...

Para weapons are more similar to a weapon that dazes the opponent. The improved version, should it be made, might actually paralyze the target and allow autocrit.

[osirisisis]

Para weapons are more similar to a weapon that dazes the opponent. The improved version, should it be made, might actually paralyze the target and allow autocrit.

I love the idea of that but I think it would be to strong.

[Turial]

I love the idea of that but I think it would be to strong.

If the save was roughly the same then I doubt it would be too strong. Remember in current content most mobs only get paralyzed if they roll a 1 and they typically don't stay that way for long.

The improved para weapons would also lack serious damage add-ons like the tier 3 auto-crit weapons have.

[KoboldKiller]

This is in no way a slight but one of your solutions to increase population is to reduce the drop rate of power 5's and put new players farther behind the long term players. Seems a bit counter productive. I have met several new players who were frustrated by the fact people would ask if they had a power 5 and they didn't now you want to make that even harder. Not only that but then you drive the price up on the AH thus creating an even bigger imbalance in the economy and making it harder to at least possibly buy one for the newer player. And as a side note I am somewhere between a casual and hard core player. I have 3 capped alts that I play 90% of the time when I play. I Shroud and run higher level content regularly and I rarely pull a power 5. Now that may differ for the powergamers and of course some are luckier than others but you may need to take a broad look at all the player types before you call for a loot reduction.

[osirisisis]

This is in no way a slight but one of your solutions to increase population is to reduce the drop rate of power 5's and put new players farther behind the long term players. Seems a bit counter productive. I have met several new players who were frustrated by the fact people would ask if they had a power 5 and they didn't now you want to make that even harder. Not only that but then you drive the price up on the AH thus creating an even bigger imbalance in the economy and making it harder to at least possibly buy one for the newer player. And as a side note I am somewhere between a casual and hard core player. I have 3 capped alts that I play 90% of the time when I play. I Shroud and run higher level content regularly and I rarely pull a power 5. Now that may differ for the powergamers and of course some are luckier than others but you may need to take a broad look at all the player types before you call for a loot reduction.

I think rarity creates excitement. I think that there is always going be some piece of gear that someone needs in most cases.... I still don't have all the gear I would like for all of my toons. It seems right now that power 5's are nice to have around the 10-13 lvl. After that its tear 3 and all players seem to have to put in about the same amount of work for those. Even tho I say make power 5's rarer I also want to see a whole new lvl of gear put in the loot table which over all should keep good stuff coming out about the same rarity seeing how there be a whole new list of stuff added.

[osirisisis]

If the save was roughly the same then I doubt it would be too strong. Remember in current content most mobs only get paralyzed if they roll a 1 and they typically don't stay that way for long.

The improved para weapons would also lack serious damage add-ons like the tier 3 auto-crit weapons have.

If the DC stayed the same I could see it happening

[Samadhi]

Yes

[Korvek]

[COLOR="Lime"]1. Reduce drop rate of power 5's back to where they were when giant hold was released rewarding all players who have played up to this point who have them. Add improved power 5's RR LVL 16 or 18 regular at the old mod 4 drop rate.

2. Add improved disruption at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs undead.

3. Add improved smite at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs constructs.

4. Add improved banish at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs banishable mobs .

5. of all the power 5's I think vorpal has some beat the odd and held it ground. I would continue with the theme add improved vorpal at RR lvl 16 regular 18 but I think it may need something besides vorpals on 19 and 20 due to that maybe to strong unless the mob death ward theme continues to some degree.

6. I think paralyzing needs some major help in that paralyzed mobs should lose all dex bounce to AC and add improved para with a high dice check at a +1 RR 16 or normal 18.

7. Remove the prefix suffix rule to add more VERITY and even tho I would make them 10 time more rare then the newly rarer made improved power 5's make it possible to have a + 1 vorpal-paralyzer min LVL 16, a greater undead bane disruptor, ect.
This would add great great excitement into the loot table.

8. Make it possible to have keen stack with improved crit since in almost all cases feats stack with effects so that one out of 35 w/p's would be a keen w/p doubling the puncturing effect

9. Add Superior bane to the pool at +1 RR 12 and +1 lvl 14 normal thats +10 10D6.

If you have some ideas please reply with them.

1. Frankly, the Mod 4 level of the chests was what initially caused the Power 5 weapons to drop in value, not specifically the +1 Loot Weekends. They just helped it along. So in that case, I'd recommend making them have the same drop rate as their weaker counterparts did in Mod 3.

2/3/4. Looks fine.

5. Vorpal. Now, given that the assassin III ability is an insta-death effect, it should be okay to assume that not all monsters will have a Death Ward-esque effect on them. Improved Vorpal should probably give a Sever-like effect. I think it's called Limbchopper, which I believe is on any crit.

6. Makes sense.

7. That could be problematic. Maybe have the loot rolling for prefix/suffix have a "Roll Twice again" for loot of minimum level 16 and above, keeping the same minimum level requirements, and the extra rolls occur after the initial prefix/suffix roll to keep it at a low value. Oh, and no repetition of the same ability (i.e. no Holy Holy of Shatter +10, just to throw out an example).

8. No. I really can't say much more than that, but critting on 50% of every hit would just seem, quite frankly, foolish.

9. That type of Superior Bane should at the least have a minimum level of 20. A +10 Enhancement bonus with an extra 10d6 damage is insane. For a minimum level of 14, I'd recommend something along the lines of +6 and +6d6.

I'd recommend considering an increase in the cap on Vertigo, Shatter, Tendon Slice, and Weighted bonuses. Also, why not add some version of improved Destruction? Maybe make it -6 to -8 or so AC, minimum level ~14.

[osirisisis]

1. Frankly, the Mod 4 level of the chests was what initially caused the Power 5 weapons to drop in value, not specifically the +1 Loot Weekends. They just helped it along. So in that case, I'd recommend making them have the same drop rate as their weaker counterparts did in Mod 3.

2/3/4. Looks fine.

5. Vorpal. Now, given that the assassin III ability is an insta-death effect, it should be okay to assume that not all monsters will have a Death Ward-esque effect on them. Improved Vorpal should probably give a Sever-like effect. I think it's called Limbchopper, which I believe is on any crit.

6. Makes sense.

7. That could be problematic. Maybe have the loot rolling for prefix/suffix have a "Roll Twice again" for loot of minimum level 16 and above, keeping the same minimum level requirements, and the extra rolls occur after the initial prefix/suffix roll to keep it at a low value. Oh, and no repetition of the same ability (i.e. no Holy Holy of Shatter +10, just to throw out an example).

8. No. I really can't say much more than that, but critting on 50% of every hit would just seem, quite frankly, foolish.

I would beg to differ here....The wounding and puncturing rapier is so rare to start. And to get one when rolling on the loot table and then to roll an extra prefix instead of a suffix or +1 instead of +2 and then to get keen as the suffix.... Conservatively to get a keen w/p rapier my be 1 out of 100 wounding and puncturing rapiers. There my be 1 pulled a year on all of the servers. This would be great in that it's a real lotto effect, raises the anticipation and excitement of ever pull.

9. That type of Superior Bane should at the least have a minimum level of 20. A +10 Enhancement bonus with an extra 10d6 damage is insane. For a minimum level of 14, I'd recommend something along the lines of +6 and +6d6.

+10 10D6 might be alittle strong. I think a good gauge for this would be minimum level 14 is the same as shroud tier 3. In that a superior bane should be maybe 50% more effective then a shroud tier 3 in DPS since vs other mobs its practically useless.

I'd recommend considering an increase in the cap on Vertigo, Shatter, Tendon Slice, and Weighted bonuses. Also, why not add some version of improved Destruction? Maybe make it -6 to -8 or so AC, minimum level ~14.

I think this would be a great idea
to add lets put curse spewing on the list

...

[GoldyGopher]

The short answer is no. Increasing Random loot will not attract more players to the game.

[Borror0]

The short answer is no. Increasing Random loot will not attract more players to the game.

While that is true, a game where looting a chest is not worth it is broken.

In front of this problem, the DDO game developers have to choice: revisit random loot or craft more named loot for every chest in DDO. The latter having a lot of drawback, mainly being more time-consuming every for every quest released. Not to mention that it's silly to have a game where random loot should be read as "currency that takes a lot of place in your backpack" and where playing Elite is not attractive, except for flavor or challenge.

[Mhykke]

and where playing Elite is not attractive, except for flavor or challenge.

Not that I necessarily disagree or anything, but playing devil's advocate, can't it be argued that playing on elite isn't attractive/necessary for loot can also be good for the game, b/c casuals wouldn't have to worry about playing on elite in order to get great items? That the game is played at normal level, and everyone can benefit, casuals get items, powergamers get items faster, and those who want a bit of a challenge/more xp if leveling, can bump it up to hard and elite for the fun factor, and not the loot grind factor?

[Drwaz99]

I agree that excitement need to be added to the loot tables, I think instead of changing and adding to all of the power fives, start from the bottom and work up in LVL's by making lvl appropriate named loot that has a min lvl 1-2 lower than it should but Make it drop at the lower level (so a level 3 rare named unique item dropping in a 1 or 2 lvl chests, etc.). Changing Power fives has nothing to do attracting and keeping new players, because if the see people running around with weapons at 1-6 that they A. can't afford, B. Pull they are going to get frustrated and fall behind the curve (and possibly give up and leave, the learning curve is hard enough and making it hard to get decent starting equipment just makes it worse), so that's why I think any changes in loot need to start with lvl one and take a look at whats missing or what could help. But at the bottom first, then you can look at power 5's when you get to that lvl range.

I'm not the best at knowing what attributes kick in at what level, so please excuse any errors as this is just hypothetical.

Low lvl 1-3: Make random named loot on the most popular of weapons that have useful attributes, sure keep the elemental on it, but maybe at them more useful add things like "Minor flaming, icy, etc burst: that happens only on a confirmed 20 and make it 1d4 (or make it once you have completed the quest through Elite, you get one option as an end reward based on Character type if they could get that to work). +1,2, and some 3's SS or Rapiers in this range are so hard to find with elemental magic on them or (anything worthwhile), they go for super inflated items on the AH. Make these items only drop in Korthos and The Harbor. Do the same thing with armor. Make these items look cool and unique. Make them bound so they don't effect the economy or ruin anything that is in place now. And It would also bring down the prices of those +1 flaming rapiers listed at 1 million gold BO and 875,000 starting. What new player is going to have that kind of money??? he idea was started on Kortos already, but should really be carried through to lvl 4 at least, because I see that is where the +1 elemental of whatever of righteousness starting becoming more available. Those are perfect for a level 4 toon. And by then they usually have 2 decent feats as well.

And go up from there and instead of basing where things drop at, do it by quests level, so if you so it on Elite you have a better chance or getting it. Or just do it at lower levels so the new players always have the suspense of opening a chest and get something other than masterwork.

This is really something you would scratch on a bar napkin and super unrefined, but after deleting all but my 1750 and re rolling all new ones ( due to all the grinding I can't stand it, ugh), this is the #1 thing I found hardest to do. Find worthwhile items.

[osirisisis]

The short answer is no. Increasing Random loot will not attract more players to the game.

It seems you failed to read the p.s part of my post.

Please go hassle someone else.

[Borror0]

Power 5 were the big craze and everyone want them. They were rare, but Turbine's first mistake was that instead of keeping them rare like at the beginning mod 4, they made them more common as chest lvl increased. With +1 loot weekends there was a large influx of power 5's and the excitement got diluted. Another very entrusting corespondent to this was that toward the end of mod 4 population started to drop from its highest point ever.

Even without the +1 loot weekend, the drop rare in Module 4 was very high.

As Korvek said earlier, the drop rate of Module 3 is a more appropriated drop rate if you seek rarity.

This organ system took a big hit in mod 6 with crafting.

Green Steel equipment was more the final blow. Turbine's first mistake was to created non-random loot that was vastly more powerful than random loot of the same level.

Green Steel equipment would have been more balanced as level 20 raid loot, than level 16 raid loot.

MARK MY WORDS .....NERF W/P AND THIS ORGAN SYSTEM WILL FAIL.

If by nerf you mean making it less attractive while still being a great weapon, then you are just plain wrong. Nerfing w/p, if using that definition, will not kill random loot. Random loot is already dead. No one will really bother for a chest or a quick loot run, really. The drop rate is too lo anyway.

If by nerfing you mean making totally worthless, then you are overstating it. It will be bad for the game, but not for random loot. Random loot is already unattractive.

So now we move on to resolution

While not diving into the specifics, better high level item enchantments are needed. Improved version of some of the previous enchantment do not seem to be a bad idea. This is not limited to Banishing, Smiting, Paralyzing and Disruption. Any previous enchantment should be given an improved version.

Some current "trash enchantment" could also be given a little more love, possibly.

A way to improve the overall quality of random loot would also be to change the progression. Right now, the formula for loot is (base price modifier * 2) - 2 = minimum level. For example, a +1 weapon or armor have a bpm of 1, and a ML of 0. A +5 weapon has a bpm of 5 and a ML 8.

What could be done is that, past level 10, the enhancement bonus to weapon/armor start affecting the bmp less and less.

Minimum level      Enhancement bonus        Equivalent
                     affecting bpm        of current bpm

     10                   +5                   +6                  
     12                   +4                   +8
     14                   +3                   +10
     16                   +2                   +12
     18                   +1                   +14
     20                   +0                   +16

What would be a ML 20 right now would have a bpm of 11. Under that system, a ML 20 weapon would have the equivalent of a 16 bpm. This transition would allow us to keep up the pace with named loot and restore some dignity to the random loot.

The use of a more abrupt slope could affect new players by making tweaking more powerful than it was already. This could be solved by adding decent static loot at the end of some high level quests, a bit in the way Turbine did on Kortos by giving stuff better than the current random loot but lesser than the tweaking gear. Either way, it would not be a bad idea, if only to offset the huge advantage Green Steel equipment represents.

I'm not totally sure whether or not such a progression is a good idea for weapons, but it is required for armors and shields.

Oh, and last comment regarding your Keen suggestion: NO, NEVER!

I think DDO is not going to reach it's full potential in a crafting grind

While I agree with that, I think that your overall hate of crafting made you overlook the positive effects a crafting system based on deconstruction of random loot could have. (This is, by the way, what has been spoken about crafting the few times we heard about it.)

1. It would slow down the generation of money by having us deconstruct our random loot for the components.
2. It would increase the worth random chests.

I'm not really a huge fan of crafting as a concept, but it could be a good thing depending on how it's done.

Finally, I'll just add that crafted Green Steel equipment was not the first cause of the problem you describe. Sword of shadows was also causing the same problem, but at a smaller scale. The real problem is named gear, raid loot or not, that was way more powerful than anything randomly generated at the same level. Only what is not available on random loot then becomes appealing.

If Turbine wants to stop this problem, they'll have to be wary and conservative with their named loot from now on.

[Angelus_dead]

2. Add improved disruption at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs undead.

3. Add improved smite at a +1 RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs constructs.

Those suggestions aren't specifically good, but the idea behind them has merit.

You see, the real killer to the attractiveness of random chests in DDO was the inadvertent loot power plateau:
Compared to D&D, DDO characters gain items at about half the level a D&D character would. In D&D you'd get a +5 rapier at level 16-19, while in DDO you get it at level 8-10. By itself that increased availability isn't a large problem (although there are assorted negative side effects). But the bigger problem is the inconsistency in that the devs failed to continue increasing item supply as the level cap went up past 10.

You see, level 8-10 DDO characters gain loot seen at level 16-20 in D&D.
But level 12-16 DDO characters gain loot seen at level 16-20 in D&D.

What happened is the developers halved the level at which you can obtain loot, but not for items of above D&D level 20 ("epic" items). Just look at the enhancement bonuses of weapons compared to the level required to equip them:
Level 1 = +1
Level 2 = +2
Level 4 = +3
Level 6 = +4
Level 8 = +5
Level 10 = +5
Level 14 = +5
Level 16 = +5

Instead of the random loot continuing to improve when you advance, it hits a wall and the pattern stops. Sure, there are some ways that random items at like level 16 are better than level 12, but that's less of an improvement than you see going from level 6 to 10. Really, if level 8 guys got +5s, then level 16 guys should at least have +6s and +7s by now.

The problem was unintentionally illustrated in this post, where someone complained that his level 10 characters couldn't enter Reaver's Refuge. He felt that melee characters would do fine there, so long as they had ML 10 gear, and he saw level 16 gear as only a little better. Of course, the fact that level 10 characters even want to go there indicates a failure in game design...

[Kintro]

Instead of the random loot continuing to improve when you advance, it hits a wall and the pattern stops. Sure, there are some ways that random items at like level 16 are better than level 12, but that's less of an improvement than you see going from level 6 to 10. Really, if level 8 guys got +5s, then level 16 guys should at least have +6s and +7s by now.

If we could get quivers to hold swords we could run around with +2-3 weapons of greater bane and effectively have +6s and +7s aslong as we remembered what key we'd hotkeyed each weapon to