Dear Turbine, about monk splashes and armor class..

[Kintro]

.No, actually you don't make a significant sacrifice. Wisdom affects all of your attack DCs, so you are going to want it to be higher, not to mention the fact that you get an enhancement increase for it, allowing you to have a higher score, while spending less build points. Add in the fact that you get innate AC boosts while you level, and it's significantly easier for that monk to reach a higher AC without sacrificing anything.

By sacrifices, I meant things like:

1) Only weapons that crit 20 (x2) hampering the use of smiting, banishing, enfeebling, puncturing, burst.
2) Only getting greensteel/transmuting on weapons that you can't use with monk stunning fist/quivering palm.
3) Shield DR
4) Self cast bark skin (compared to ranger AC build)
5) Intimidate (compared to AC fighter build)

And, quite frankly; The monk class was never meant to be as offensive a melee class as a ranger. They were meant to win through defense and their special abilities.

That compared with the limited effectiveness of stunning fist/quivering palm due to lack of tactics lines/weighted, raid bosses that are immune to FoL and generally weak (couple of exceptions) finishing moves (that disable CE) is why I'm advocating not decreasing their defence abilities.

[Angelus_dead]

Give me a reason why changing monk Wis bonus to AC to an insight bonus would be a bad thing.

Easy:
It would completely fail the objective of reducing the power of a monk-splash compared to a primary monk. (In fact as someone else pointed out, it would hurt primary monks more than splashes)
It would reduce the power of primary monk builds by lowering their AC.


PS. I use "primary monk" to mean a character with more monk levels than anything else.

[Borror0]

Give me a reason why changing monk Wis bonus to AC to an insight bonus would be a bad thing.

Easy. Kintro said it already: It would hurt monks more than monk splashes.

[bandyman1]

By sacrifices, I meant things like:

1) Only weapons that crit 20 (x2) hampering the use of smiting, banishing, enfeebling, puncturing, burst. This has always been the case with monks. You use ****** weapons or your fists.
2) Only getting greensteel/transmuting on weapons that you can't use with monk stunning fist/quivering palm. Which is why I ponted out in the same post, that yes; They need to implement GS handwraps into the game.
3) Shield DR Umm...I'm pretty sure ranger/monk splashes aren't using a shield, and that they lose their Wis AC bonus if they do.
4) Self cast bark skin (compared to ranger AC build) +2 over cheap pots. Far made up for by you innate level AC, higher Wis, and the fact that if you have a ranger in party, it's a non-issue.
5) Intimidate (compared to AC fighter build) Lol, but we're talking ranger/monk splash.



That compared with the limited effectiveness of stunning fist/quivering palm due to lack of tactics lines/weighted, raid bosses that are immune to FoL and generally weak (couple of exceptions) finishing moves (that disable CE) is why I'm advocating not decreasing their defence abilities. And that's fine, but what you're going to end up with is monks having the only AC that matters. Because the mobs will simply still be adjusted to hit your AC. S&B gets shafted still.

If Borr wants balance, then there needs to be balance across ALL defensive builds. Not just pure monks. And no one can argue at this point, that a S&B melee is not a defensive build.

[bandyman1]

Easy. Kintro said it already: It would hurt monks more than monk splashes.

But it wouldn't Borr. He loses no more AC than the ranger. And he's still at higher AC.

It simply brings both more in line with the other defensive classes.

[Angelus_dead]

But it wouldn't Borr. He loses no more AC than the ranger. And he's still at higher AC.

No. They both lose the same AC, but the ranger gains more DPS in exchange.

Both monk16 and ran15/monk1 lose 4 AC from green steel, but then ran15 gains Acid Blast in exchange. Because the ranger build is holding a khopesh or rapier, Acid Blast actually improves his DPS. The monk has a kama, so Acid Blast is nearly worthless.

[bandyman1]

No. They both lose the same AC, but the ranger gains more DPS in exchange.

Both monk16 and ran15/monk1 lose 4 AC from green steel, but then ran15 gains Acid Blast in exchange. Because the ranger build is holding a khopesh or rapier, Acid Blast actually improves his DPS. The monk has a kama, so Acid Blast is nearly worthless.

Dude...get over the fact that monks don't have a 19-20 base crit range weapon. It's just the way it is. It's the way it's always been.

Monks are not about damage. They never were.

Monks get ****** weapons. That's the way it is in 3.5, and that's the way it is in DDO.

Sorry to burst you're bubble, but if that's the best you've got, then you haven't proven your point at all.

[Mhykke]

Dude...get over the fact that monks don't have a 19-20 base crit range weapon. It's just the way it is. It's the way it's always been.

Monks are not about damage. They never were.

Monks get ****** weapons. That's the way it is in 3.5, and that's the way it is in DDO.

Sorry to burst you're bubble, but if that's the best you've got, then you haven't proven your point at all.

But bandy, here's the thing. Monks, as you state, aren't about damage. They have higher than average AC's to compensate for that lack of damage. Monk splashes have both AC and damage. So if you take away an equal number of AC from both the monk and the monk splash, the monk splash still has damage. The monk is only left with, what exactly? The AC of another build, but with less damage? That's why if you remove the same number of AC from monks and monk splashes, the pure monk is hurt. His very high above average AC to compensate for lack of damage is lessened, where he doesn't have anything to fall back on, like being able to output damage. The monk/ranger splash, in this case, who has an equal number of AC taken away, is still doing damage.

[Reisz]

One of the wonders of DDO and what sets it apart from many MMOs is the custom builds that you can make.

Do not limit the creativity that is found through multiclassing. Sure, you can find some powerful synergies. But I think that the capstones which turbine is proposing can strike a balance for pure classes.

[Angelus_dead]

Dude...get over the fact that monks don't have a 19-20 base crit range weapon. It's just the way it is. It's the way it's always been.

Monks are not about damage. They never were.

Fine, time for pendantics:

1. Bandyman claims "this change would impact pure monks and splashed monks equally"
2. The change would reduce their AC equally, but raise DPS more on splashed monks than pure.
3. Therefore, the claim in #1 is untrue.

Plus, it's untrue in another way:
1. Bandyman claims "this change would impact pure monks and splashed monks equally".
2. Both splash and pure monks would lose the same number of AC (4).
3. AC is more valuable the more of it you have.
4. Pure monks have more AC.
5. Therefore pure monks have more to lose from the same numerical AC drop.
6. Therefore, the claim in #1 is untrue.

Monks get ****** weapons. That's the way it is in 3.5, and that's the way it is in DDO.

That fact undermines your own position.

[bandyman1]

But bandy, here's the thing. Monks, as you state, aren't about damage. They have higher than average AC's to compensate for that lack of damage. Monk splashes have both AC and damage. So if you take away an equal number of AC from both the monk and the monk splash, the monk splash still has damage. The monk is only left with, what exactly? The AC of another build, but with less damage? That's why if you remove the same number of AC from monks and monk splashes, the pure monk is hurt. His very high above average AC to compensate for lack of damage is lessened, where he doesn't have anything to fall back on, like being able to output damage. The monk/ranger splash, in this case, who has an equal number of AC taken away, is still doing damage.

But here's the thing Mhykke.

( Subjective numbers here, I could care less what your build reaches, you all get the point )

Sure the ranger/monk that falls from 70 AC to 65-66 AC still has damage, but he's also suddenly getting hit a hell of a lot more. I know because that's the range Nim and Sel run in self-buffed.

The pure monk that falls from 80 AC down to 75-76....still not really getting hit bro. See what I'm saying?

[Mhykke]

But here's the thing Mhykke.

( Subjective numbers here, I could care less what your build reaches, you all get the point )

Sure the ranger/monk that falls from 70 AC to 65-65 AC still has damage, but he's also suddenly getting hit a hell of a lot more. I know because that's the range Nim and Sel run in self-buffed.

The pure monk that falls from 80 Ac down to 75-76....still not really getting hit bro. See what I'm saying?

That would be true if pure monks were walking around with 80 ACs. But in looking at what my pure monk will reach at 16, it won't be 80 (well, at least not most of the time). I think pure monks are still fairly hittable now (if they get aggro, they'll take damage here and there, and not just on 20s....they're not untouchable), and reducing their AC will only serve to make them more hittable, and, not doing big damage. If you thought pure monks were hated now, take away a bit from one of their big benefits....

[bandyman1]

Which is why I also argued that mob to hit should be adjusted as well.


What thesse changes would do, is cause less of a gap between uber raid-geared toons, and normal players. Monks would still be at the pinacle of AC builds, ranger splashes would be more in line with S&B, and casual players who've worked their asses off for a mid-high 50s AC would see some payoff for their effort.

[issiana]

But rogues aren't only trap guys...

wasnt saying they are just that, i happen to love my healing,casting, trap buster murdering bad guy, ninja skilled pure rogue very much. Its jus tthat splashes of any class kinda irritate me a lot. I guess i just like pure class builds

Interestly enough, the SRD disagrees with you.

Specifically:


Funny how often people forget that.

hehe last time i played D&D was back 2nd eddition, and from memory if you multiclassed you had to not use any skills/abbilities from your old class until your new class was equal lvl to old class, and old class could never be advanced again. (well that was how my DM made it anyway, lol)

So if 3.5 says its ok then its ok, just makes me sad to see so few pure classes out there thats all.

[krud]

I keep trying to think of ways to address monk splash AC, but the problem always is the intended target is usually not the one hit the hardest by a wis AC nerf that tries to limit stacking.

You could limit the AC bonus to be based upon monk level (e.g. 2x monk level), but that also hurts mnk/clr builds, who aren't really so out of whack like other monk splashes, as well as low level monks. You could limit it to a percentage of monk level (like sorc splash sp items), but that nerfs it to the point of oblivion for many. It's too harsh.

About the only solution I can think of is to limit the AC bonus when uncentered. That way it keeps it available if your willing to do the trade off. I think it would be a good trade off between offense and defense. You get the best dps but less AC, or good dps and great AC, but never both (no other class/build gets that kind of combination anyway). There can always be compromises, such as only 2x monk level, or 1/2 wis AC bonus, when uncentered, so the bonus doesn't completely go away when uncentered. Another option is to add feats that allow for full wis ac bonus when uncentered, which would keep the option available, but for a cost. Again, i think it would be a good idea to keep the bonus around, just make it so there is some kind of trade off, same as all other classes have to do.

To those who vehemently oppose any wis AC nerf, can you name any other build that comes anywhere near to the DPS and AC of a rgr/mnk splash? Name one. Is there any good reason why one specific build should excel in all aspects of melee, when none others do? How is that supposed to foster diversity?

[ShaeNightbird]

It's all Greek to me.

Tzatziki.

[Deathseeker]

I prefer changing Monk AC bonus to type "shield"

Today, your typical ranger/monk splash is getting +2 for Tempest, +6 monk. Add in the +4 from a shield wand/cookie and those combined are +12.

With this change, it would drop that top AC by -6. But that's assuming use of the shield spell. If not using that, it's only a -2 change (depends on whatever your wisdom bonus is...I assumed Wis 14 + 6 item + 2 tome).

At level 20, this change would basically mean, for a Tempest III, the monk splash only helps you after you exceed Wisdom 18. That's a much more reasonable result. You still get 2 feats from monk splash, and possibly a benefit of a few AC if you made your wisdom high enough.

For non-rangers, it basically has no effect except for those who splashed Wiz to cast shield. For those guys, well, this would kill ya.

For a rogue splash (ie Rgr 18 / 1 rogue / 1 monk) who took UMD just for this purpose would take a hit. But UMD is extremely useful, so I dont think this is a build breaker for those toons.

On the other hand, it doesnt hurt monks at all (other than not stacking with a shield cookie/clicky which I can't believe is the central point of someone's build). Doesnt hurt Cleric/Monks at all.

Its a moderate move...not brutal, but a step in the right direction.

I also predict its what they WILL do. They did it with Tempest, why not complete the cycle and do it here? They can say "monks weren't ever supposed to stack with shields, just like tempests, and this falls in line with that same approach" just like they said with Tempest.

[Elsiah]

having no splashed monk characters myself, i feel fairly neutral on this subject. Having ten years or so of PnP gaming under my belt, the idea behind this thread makes me want to smash my face into a boiling hot radiator to lessen the pain.

I mean, the ac bonus to wisdom is not typed for a reason. It is meant to stack. Changing that may even things out for the splash builds but hurts the monk. To suggest a nerf that slaps PnP in the face and causes Pure monks (or majority monks) to be panalized (respec option or not, A_D) is really, really stupid. Why change one of the fundamental basics behind a class because people are using it and enjoying it?

If you're playing and you get mad because the Ranger14/Monk1/Rogue1 isn't getting hit and you are, then by all means make one, and please leave the rest of us to our fun.

I'm really curious to see how everyone builds druids--imagine a Druid19/monk1 with full healing, wisdom to ac (or two levels for evasion, of course), firewalls, etc...but i imagine someone out there will complain about people using the rulles to make powerful, effective characters (god forbid) and try to get that changed too.

[Angelus_dead]

Why change one of the fundamental basics behind a class because people are using it and enjoying it?

Because people who aren't using it aren't enjoying it, and also some people who are using it don't enjoy it...

I'm really curious to see how everyone builds druids--imagine a Druid19/monk1 with full healing, wisdom to ac (or two levels for evasion, of course), firewalls, etc...but i imagine someone out there will complain about people using the rulles to make powerful, effective characters (god forbid) and try to get that changed too.

What, are you joking?

[krud]

I mean, the ac bonus to wisdom is not typed for a reason. It is meant to stack. Changing that may even things out for the splash builds but hurts the monk. To suggest a nerf that slaps PnP in the face and causes Pure monks (or majority monks) to be panalized (respec option or not, A_D) is really, really stupid. Why change one of the fundamental basics behind a class because people are using it and enjoying it? the entire "centered" status is an brand new idea added by turbine in order to keep monks using monkish weapons. It's not much of a stretch to add the wis AC to it.

If you're playing and you get mad because the Ranger14/Monk1/Rogue1 isn't getting hit and you are, then by all means make one, and please leave the rest of us to our fun.

Not getting mad, but how is it that any good for a game whose hallmark is character customization? "You can make any character you want, but if you want the best of everything you must do x/x/x" . Try looking at it this way. imagine if all your toons were limted to level10. No matter how great you designed them or geared them up you only get to level 10. Then try running high end or end game content with the level 16s and see how fun that is. "Go roll what everyone else is rolling" has got to be the dumbest answer to the problem. What's the point of having all those other classes around? So we all can have our little bit of flavor? What a load of garbage.