Dear Turbine, about monk splashes and armor class..

[bandyman1]

As someone with a Ranger/Monk/Rogue high AC build, and someone with a 60 standing AC S&B build; I gotta say I agree with the sentiment of the OP.

I really like the insight " fix ". It works, it makes sense, and combined with tempest AC bonus going to a shield bonus, it should alleviate a LOT of the problem of putting S&B AC on par again.

That said; It's also only going to work if mob to-hit is readjusted for lower ACs across the board. If it simply puts them on par with the AC a S&B can achieve, and that AC still = getting torn to shreds, then you're going to have an outcry such as the forums have never seen before. And that would be bad devs; Very, VERY bad for the game right now.

[Jendrak]

After reading all the posts only one per actually found the real problem...

PnP has a lot more disadvantages to splashing than DDO does and specifically to avoid splashing monks and pally's (i.e. all levels need to be taken together). It is a little disingenuous to say that the Monk AC bonus is "as intended" in PnP.

Some examples:
1- XP penalties for splashing a class and one class is not a favoured class (since no core race has either ranger or monk as a favoured class all would have an XP hit (except humans and eventually half elves)
2- RP issues re monks becoming rangers and vice versa
3- Loss of BaB from splashing monk

Its no coincidence that two classes (monk and pally) with restricted multiclass ability on PnP are two of the most frequently splashed in DDO.

This is the reason why everything is so screwed up in ddo as far as splash builds go. Had Turbine done the right thing and used the rules for multi-classing the PnP does none of this would be an issue. Espically in regards in Pally/Monk class.

In PnP both of the class have restriction that do not allow a player to take other classes with these 2 easily. I.E. If you take 6 levels of pally and decide to take a lvl or 2 of rouge you can no longer take any lvls of pally and monks are the same way. You also lose many of the class abilities that pally and monk provide.

What needs to be fixed isnt monk wis bonus its doing what its supposed to.

What needs to be fixed is this free for all Multi-classing that is killing DDO.

[Ryss]

My stance on changes/nerfs/adjustments/whatever-you-call-it is simple:
Change anything as long as you don't make innocent bystanders suffer. Which means full respec + greensteel deconstruction + anything and everything else that needs a lot of time and effort.

For the record, I don't have a single build that will be affected by the upcoming (and some speculated) changes. But still I need some kind of trust that my efforts in creating, leveling and grinding a toon won't go to waste in the future.

If I ever see one of my legitimate builds getting the shaft again without any compensation, I'm gone for good.

[Dragonhyde]

eh I would rather not see them tie AC from wisdom to being centered as if you splash monk you are already have to give up all armor for that bonus. Luckily my rogue will still have a decently high ac even without that if it comes to it since his wisdom is only around 20 and only has ac in case something I backstabbed decides to stab me back . But I do find it interesting that someone could switch my rogue/monk levels and still be able to hit all the rogue skill stuff in game.

[Korvek]

You also lose many of the class abilities that pally and monk provide.

What needs to be fixed isnt monk wis bonus its doing what its supposed to.

What needs to be fixed is this free for all Multi-classing that is killing DDO.

Frankly, there would be absolutely no difference if the multiclassing penalties in PnP existed in DDO.

As for the Monks and Paladins multiclassing, IIRC, as long as they stay Lawful/Lawful Good (respectively), they retain their class abilities.

[KLBen]

After reading all the posts only one per actually found the real problem...


This is the reason why everything is so screwed up in ddo as far as splash builds go. Had Turbine done the right thing and used the rules for multi-classing the PnP does none of this would be an issue. Espically in regards in Pally/Monk class.

In PnP both of the class have restriction that do not allow a player to take other classes with these 2 easily. I.E. If you take 6 levels of pally and decide to take a lvl or 2 of rouge you can no longer take any lvls of pally and monks are the same way. You also lose many of the class abilities that pally and monk provide.

What needs to be fixed isnt monk wis bonus its doing what its supposed to.

What needs to be fixed is this free for all Multi-classing that is killing DDO.

/signed

[Fenrisulven6]

I'll leave the monk splash arguments to the experts here.

Either way, I'm just looking for some resolution so I can decide whether I want to splash monk [or course, if a respec system was in place, I could go ahead and take the jump, then change it back if its nerfed....]

Are we expecting the next mod to settle this one way or the other?

[Junts]

As someone with a Ranger/Monk/Rogue high AC build, and someone with a 60 standing AC S&B build; I gotta say I agree with the sentiment of the OP.

I really like the insight " fix ". It works, it makes sense, and combined with tempest AC bonus going to a shield bonus, it should alleviate a LOT of the problem of putting S&B AC on par again.

That said; It's also only going to work if mob to-hit is readjusted for lower ACs across the board. If it simply puts them on par with the AC a S&B can achieve, and that AC still = getting torn to shreds, then you're going to have an outcry such as the forums have never seen before. And that would be bad devs; Very, VERY bad for the game right now.

My human pally has a beholder ac of 63, self 67, raid 75 - mod9 will give him 3 more static (2 mdb, 1 more pally aura), plus the defensive stance 4 and whatever "your defensive auras are more powerful" means- the current ac is defintely enough at present cap and I have to hope that 7 is the mostish any ac build will be gaining from the 20cap - I don't think hit rebalancing is needed, when - am raidbuffed the only things in the game that can hit me are elite suulomades and arraetrikos; as long as I have an acsong, elite vod/hound trash can't touch me. And that seems balanced, because I am reliant on some party help for total immunity but get great defense alone

People act like ac is worthless without beiing missed on a 2, but a 56-58 ac is like a static stacking blur, low 60s like static stacking displacement etc - its very helpful even if you are hit some.


This change would hit all monks yep but seriously: I know a pure monk without ce with better ac than - have with same buffs, as well as a 14/2 cle/monk - those aren't fotm builds but they aren't gimped by a 4 ac hit, especially since excep wis etc make it just a 2-3.

They can still be quite good and their wis is helpful, but monksplashes start to need real wis investments instead of getting at min 3 ac from 8+tome+item; that one level is worth min 3 ac without any effort and that's the flaw; all other forms of ac getting require stat, feat, and big gearslot investments

The problem with the monksplash isn't that it exists, its that ots cost to most dex builds is miniscule for vast benefits

[Raithe]

Frankly, there would be absolutely no difference if the multiclassing penalties in PnP existed in DDO.

As for the Monks and Paladins multiclassing, IIRC, as long as they stay Lawful/Lawful Good (respectively), they retain their class abilities.

The intent can be copied, whether the mechanics can be directly transferred or not. Lots of mechanics in DDO are similar to D&D but have been slightly adjusted for the high speed, realtime, online format.

For instance, they could have simply tracked actual xp versus effective xp. Your actual xp is capped to the same value as everyone else, but depending on your race and multiclassing, your effective xp (which would determine your level) may go through a decrease adjustment. Drow, for example, would wind up capped at level 14 when everyone else was capped at 16 - but they would also probably have their full spell resistance and the like.

For alignment-based powers, like those of monks and paladins, they could have done several things to copy the intent from D&D:

1) Paladins and Monks could have simply not been allowed to multi-class. If you already had a level of something else, you wouldn't be able to multiclass into paladin or monk.

2) Alignment bending could have been added to the game. Allow free multi-classing but give every ability and spell an alignment that affects the character's ability to use other alignment-based powers and abilities. If a paladin/sorc starts casting a few too many "Finger of Deaths" - well, he won't be broadcasting an aura of good and he will have the same crappy saves as most casters. Whether the alignment bend would be permanent or not would be a trivial matter to evaluate during gameplay.

3) Or, the game could have simply placed greater restrictions on alignment. Rogues wouldn't be allowed to be lawful, monks could have been limited to lawful nuetral, and rangers could only be good (lawful good, neutral good, or chaotic good). Most of the more exploitive metagaming facilities go away with these restrictions.

There is a lot that could have been done to make DDO a more balanced, more D&D-like game. The interesting question to me is why and how it has become so unglued from its roots.

[Borror0]

The problem with the monksplash isn't that it exists, its that ots cost to most dex builds is miniscule for vast benefits

Yes and no.

You are right in that it is "minuscule costs for vast benefits", in comparison with S&B, but the problem is also that it exists.

There are at least two problems with the existence of monk's AC.

1. It's too powerful of a multiclass.
2. The cost for going Dex-based TWF is still really small compared to the cost of putting a shield on.

The first one is problematic no matter how you look at it.

The second one can be solved, but it is way easier to solve if you nerf monk AC somehow.

[Kintro]

The problem with the monksplash isn't that it exists, its that ots cost to most dex builds is miniscule for vast benefits

If you make the wisdom bonus into an Insight bonus and drop everythings to-hit by 4 you've not changed the monk spashes effective AC at all, you've just made it so they don't need to sacrifice the 3rd tier on a shroud item in order to get the same effect.

I think if any change is made it shouldn't affect pure monks, they make a lot of sacrifices to get such a high AC. Maybe I'd be of a different opinion if certain issues with monks didn't exist (Weighted not working with stunning blow, no greensteel wraps, finishers turning off CE).

[Lewcipher]

What about STR based Ranger/Monk combos that sacrificed another stat to make sure their WIS would be decent enough for the boost?

[Angelus_dead]

What about STR based Ranger/Monk combos that sacrificed another stat to make sure their WIS would be decent enough for the boost?

That's why stat respecs should be offered to characters negatively impacted by a change.

[branmakmuffin]

That's why stat respecs should be offered to characters negatively impacted by a change.

Yeah, turn this into yet another respec thread.

[Lewcipher]

That's why stat respecs should be offered to characters negatively impacted by a change.

Yah, if there is one, and I really hope if they do this, I can also deconstruct. A lot of larges went towards +4 AC bonus. If they change it, AC means meh to me.

[Borror0]

Yeah, turn this into yet another respec thread.

What the players are capable to respec greatly influences decisions made when balancing builds.

[branmakmuffin]

The capacity to respec is really important when it comes to balancing.

In your opinion.

[Lewcipher]

In my opinion too, since Borro and most people have more than 2 people over lvl 8.

[Ranmaru2]

In your opinion.

as well as everyone who had a batman build when the evasion hit took place, or all paladin splashes when the aura was reduced from +2 to +1 in both categories, etc.

[branmakmuffin]

as well as everyone who had a batman build when the evasion hit took place, or all paladin splashes when the aura was reduced from +2 to +1 in both categories, etc.

Yeah, and because there's a well-defined category of whiners, that's reason enough to make such a drastic change to the game.