Dear Turbine, about monk splashes and armor class..

[Junts]

Dear Eladrin et al.

For months now I am sure you have heard the howling about the monk wis bonus to armor class, monk splashes and its incredible synergy with two character types: the rogue (epitomized by the 15 rog/1 monk dex build, which tends to attain the highest available ac in the game), and the ranger (epitomized by the 14 ran/1 rog/1 monk, dps god twf build with 70 ac).

Monk splashes are good but not absurd in many other cases (like the 14 cle/2 monk, or 14 pally/2 monk, etc) because the monk splash is most rewarding on characters capable of tanking a couple stats; rangers are by far most guilty of this (not forced to spend 2-3 bp a pop on dexterity, or to carry any charisma), and rogues are in a similar vein; this makes it easy for them to get a 20-24 wisdom and get an extra 5-7 ac for their troubles. Other splashes are sacrificing a lot more for their ac bonuses (wisdom is oddly a dump stat for many paladin builds, as its tough to keep it high, and unnecessary with shroud sp items, and any battle/casting type splashing it is giving up casting levels, spell slots etc)

Those other builds that are getting a lot out of the monk splash tend to be working with wisdom as a central facet of their build; it is not something they just throw in incidently because the payoff from ac is better than spending 6 build points for another 1 hit/damage going from 16 to 18 strength, for example.

The paladin capstone did an excellent job of addressing the tradeoff for paladins; the benefits of /2monk, /2rogue, /2fighter and straight 20 paladin are all relatively similar and differ primarily in 'what you want to do with your character', with all being rewarding and good.

The rogue capstone fails in this because it does not outweigh the benefit of t he monk splash and feat, or other splashes.

The ranger capstone is yet to come, but imo will be most challenging because rangers threaten constantly to be -the- dominant melee class due to their excessive free (without stat requirement) feats - rangers not only get massive fe bonuses, but are able to evade the dex investments made by every other twf character to pump strength and wisdom.

The intention of this thread is to offer you a simple way of addressing the monk bonus in a way that does not disincentiveize splashing monk, but rather disincentivizes doing so with a relatively minimal wisdom and relying on +2 tome, +6 item to give you 4 free armor class.

This is simple and while it would impact all characters using the monk wisdom bonus, it would make that bonus far more rewarding for highly-invested characters:

Give the wisdom bonus to ac the 'insight' type; not only is this rp appropriate, but by removing the stacking with heightened awareness 4, the tradeoffs change:

it may not be worth 1 level to get the same ac you get from a shroud weapon
it may be worth that level to not have to put insight on your shroud weapon, or maintain your ac while using other weapons (like vorpals, wounding, etc)
if you have a massive wisdom, while you are effectively losing your shroud ac, you are still maintaining a +9-12 insight bonus, and free to prop up that bonus in other ways (exceptional wisdom, for example).

18-20 wis (post-mod) monk splashes would howl about this til the day they die, and many monk splashed melees fall into this category; however, this means to an easy armor class could use a little abridging, and if you do not intend to move or modify the icy rainment, this is a very good method of doing so.


I will now pause as this thread is extensively flamed.

[Lewcipher]

Dear Eladrin et al.

For months now I am sure you have heard the howling about the monk wis bonus to armor class, monk splashes and its incredible synergy with two character types: the rogue (epitomized by the 15 rog/1 monk dex build, which tends to attain the highest available ac in the game), and the ranger (epitomized by the 14 ran/1 rog/1 monk, dps god twf build with 70 ac).

Monk splashes are good but not absurd in many other cases (like the 14 cle/2 monk, or 14 pally/2 monk, etc) because the monk splash is most rewarding on characters capable of tanking a couple stats; rangers are by far most guilty of this (not forced to spend 2-3 bp a pop on dexterity, or to carry any charisma), and rogues are in a similar vein; this makes it easy for them to get a 20-24 wisdom and get an extra 5-7 ac for their troubles. Other splashes are sacrificing a lot more for their ac bonuses (wisdom is oddly a dump stat for many paladin builds, as its tough to keep it high, and unnecessary with shroud sp items, and any battle/casting type splashing it is giving up casting levels, spell slots etc)

Those other builds that are getting a lot out of the monk splash tend to be working with wisdom as a central facet of their build; it is not something they just throw in incidently because the payoff from ac is better than spending 6 build points for another 1 hit/damage going from 16 to 18 strength, for example.

The paladin capstone did an excellent job of addressing the tradeoff for paladins; the benefits of /2monk, /2rogue, /2fighter and straight 20 paladin are all relatively similar and differ primarily in 'what you want to do with your character', with all being rewarding and good.

The rogue capstone fails in this because it does not outweigh the benefit of t he monk splash and feat, or other splashes.

The ranger capstone is yet to come, but imo will be most challenging because rangers threaten constantly to be -the- dominant melee class due to their excessive free (without stat requirement) feats - rangers not only get massive fe bonuses, but are able to evade the dex investments made by every other twf character to pump strength and wisdom.

The intention of this thread is to offer you a simple way of addressing the monk bonus in a way that does not disincentiveize splashing monk, but rather disincentivizes doing so with a relatively minimal wisdom and relying on +2 tome, +6 item to give you 4 free armor class.

This is simple and while it would impact all characters using the monk wisdom bonus, it would make that bonus far more rewarding for highly-invested characters:

Give the wisdom bonus to ac the 'insight' type; not only is this rp appropriate, but by removing the stacking with heightened awareness 4, the tradeoffs change:

it may not be worth 1 level to get the same ac you get from a shroud weapon
it may be worth that level to not have to put insight on your shroud weapon, or maintain your ac while using other weapons (like vorpals, wounding, etc)
if you have a massive wisdom, while you are effectively losing your shroud ac, you are still maintaining a +9-12 insight bonus, and free to prop up that bonus in other ways (exceptional wisdom, for example).

18-20 wis (post-mod) monk splashes would howl about this til the day they die, and many monk splashed melees fall into this category; however, this means to an easy armor class could use a little abridging, and if you do not intend to move or modify the icy rainment, this is a very good method of doing so.


I will now pause as this thread is extensively flamed.

As long I can deconstruct my 24 large AC insight bonus shroud weapon and get all my ingredients back.

[Noctus]

I will now pause as this thread is extensively flamed.

What?

1 post and yet "extensively flamed?

[Junts]

that was part of my original post; the edit was just for typos

[Pyromaniac]

How about we eliminate all major nerfing, reverse the upcoming alleged w/p nerf, reverse the crit range barbarian nerf? Remember way back when Paladins were nerfed because they were too good? And then for at least the next year and a half they were extremely subpar?

Nerfing has tremendous consequences, and normally the nerfs are too strong, decimating the player characters and ending in fewer subscriptions.

The only nerf I've seen recently that I think worked relatively well was the dwarven toughness. It was more focused on increasing other races and only gave dwarves a minor hit. I do not have a monk splash AC focused build, but I can image they'll feel the same way about this nerf that the barbarian or w/p players will. That is - tremendously annoyed.

[wickettbattlechan]

People on these boards usually scream about doing things closer to PNP and when Turbine finally accomodates them with the monk AC bonus they run to these boards and scream nerf.

I swear it sounds like people just like to complain, which seems evident by reading these boards everyday. I normally don't post and I certainly don't like to complain but this is getting out of hand.

If this proposed change takes place how will I decide how to roll a new character. If PNP rule sets are subject to change at the whims of a small portion of the player base, what hope is there for anyone's characters to survive. This complaint along with the myriad of WoP threads are screaming for the death of dex builds and it certainly saddens me.

The Ac bonus only becomes out of proportion when it is combined with the Icy Raiment. Also the upcoming change to tempest Ac so it will not stack with the shield spell may help to even things out.

I just hope all of the constant complaining doesn't lead to the stellar cookie cutter builds that WoW is so famous for!

[Aspenor]

bad idea, nuff said.

[EKKM]

People on these boards usually scream about doing things closer to PNP and when Turbine finally accomodates them with the monk AC bonus they run to these boards and scream nerf.

I swear it sounds like people just like to complain, which seems evident by reading these boards everyday. I normally don't post and I certainly don't like to complain but this is getting out of hand.

If this proposed change takes place how will I decide how to roll a new character. If PNP rule sets are subject to change at the whims of a small portion of the player base, what hope is there for anyone's characters to survive. This complaint along with the myriad of WoP threads are screaming for the death of dex builds and it certainly saddens me.

The Ac bonus only becomes out of proportion when it is combined with the Icy Raiment. Also the upcoming change to tempest Ac so it will not stack with the shield spell may help to even things out.

I just hope all of the constant complaining doesn't lead to the stellar cookie cutter builds that WoW is so famous for!

PnP has a lot more disadvantages to splashing than DDO does and specifically to avoid splashing monks and pally's (i.e. all levels need to be taken together). It is a little disingenuous to say that the Monk AC bonus is "as intended" in PnP.

Some examples:
1- XP penalties for splashing a class and one class is not a favoured class (since no core race has either ranger or monk as a favoured class all would have an XP hit (except humans and eventually half elves)
2- RP issues re monks becoming rangers and vice versa
3- Loss of BaB from splashing monk

Its no coincidence that two classes (monk and pally) with restricted multiclass ability on PnP are two of the most frequently splashed in DDO.

[Kintro]

Dear Eladrin et al.

For months now I am sure you have heard the howling about the monk wis bonus to armor class, monk splashes and its incredible synergy with two character types: the rogue (epitomized by the 15 rog/1 monk dex build, which tends to attain the highest available ac in the game), and the ranger (epitomized by the 14 ran/1 rog/1 monk, dps god twf build with 70 ac).

*SNIP*


I will now pause as this thread is extensively flamed.

The trouble with this is you're also limiting the max AC a pure monk can attain.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Changing monk ac boost to insight would reduce my pure monk ac by 4 - since I have the insight +4 dragontouched robe. I presume your intention was to punish monk splash rather than pure monk.

How about a cap on the amount of wisdom based AC based on your monk level - e.g. monk/1 caps at 1 or something. Or - simply make it so wisdom bonus to AC doesn't apply if you're not centered - a simple (albeit non-pnp) solution that would fix all the issues.

Any change to the bonus should not affect pure monks.

Garth

[Angelus_dead]

How about a cap on the amount of wisdom based AC based on your monk level - e.g. monk/1 caps at 1 or something.

That's what I've been suggesting since module 1.

[issiana]

How about a cap on the amount of wisdom based AC based on your monk level - e.g. monk/1 caps at 1 or something.

Any change to the bonus should not affect pure monks.

Garth

totally agree. heck i'd like to see skills capped at the lvl splash you have. that would make pure rogues valuable and desirable to play, as it stands 1 lvl is all you need and thats just so wrong imo.

[Mhykke]

totally agree. heck i'd like to see skills capped at the lvl splash you have. that would make pure rogues valuable and desirable to play, as it stands 1 lvl is all you need and thats just so wrong imo.

But rogues aren't only trap guys...

[Tanka]

totally agree. heck i'd like to see skills capped at the lvl splash you have. that would make pure rogues valuable and desirable to play, as it stands 1 lvl is all you need and thats just so wrong imo.

Interestly enough, the SRD disagrees with you.

Specifically:

Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3.

Funny how often people forget that.

[Lifespawn]

To nerf without total nerf how about monk lvl*2=max possible wis bonus then the 1 monk splashes still get 2 ac but doesn't screw over the pally that splashed 2 lvls for evasion he still gets 4 that would make it a serious choice to take 2 monk lvls and your base class or lose pre lvl 3 to take 2 monk and something else and base class.

And does not hurt monks atall or deep multiclassers a 5 monk "splash" could still get 10 ac from wisdom if they so chose to build like that.


This proposed change along with the tempest not stacking with shield will bring down the 1 monk splash rangers a minimal of 6 ac and while still hurting some 2 monk splash builds it would be much more limited in scope than other proposed changes.

Then we could have 6 less ac to have monsters balanced to and would bring everything back into line IMO.

[issiana]

But rogues aren't only trap guys...

wasnt saying they are just that, i happen to love my healing,casting, trap buster murdering bad guy, ninja skilled pure rogue very much. Its jus tthat splashes of any class kinda irritate me a lot. I guess i just like pure class builds

Interestly enough, the SRD disagrees with you.

Specifically:


Funny how often people forget that.

hehe last time i played D&D was back 2nd eddition, and from memory if you multiclassed you had to not use any skills/abbilities from your old class until your new class was equal lvl to old class, and old class could never be advanced again. (well that was how my DM made it anyway, lol)

So if 3.5 says its ok then its ok, just makes me sad to see so few pure classes out there thats all.

[Ollathir]

I don't agree with the current AC imbalance. I do believe in current quests the high 70-85 TWF AC is taken into account and players below this point get an awfull lot of damage due to the To-Hit for the mobs being what they are.
I believe however a nerf is not the best way to go about it. You could add more Red names in quests. End of Kobald and the Mephits in Sorjek are good examples. Stat DMG not very effective, and the guards they have on them can be pretty damaging no matter what your AC is. Monastary is a nice change, end puzzle and all solvable great, if not it doesn't really matter if your AC is over 100, the Drow Scorp hits and hits harder than Harry or Suulo.

More variety in quests such as Dreams of Insanity with ancient warforged, drow, tharaak hounds, ancient defenders (metal dogs), beholders, putting Rangers and FE on more level field. Throw the red named mobs in the mix and you need banishers(course at end game ineffective), Stat DMG, Vorpal, DPS, etc. = Variety

The Fighter Enhancements are way past due for an overhaul. I just personally don't think its right that a TWF should have the same or better AC than a S & B. Whats the point? But I don't see how nerfing the TWF is a solution. I see no reason why Fighters should not have Armor Mastery and Tower Shield Mastery IV @ lvl 15 & V @ lvl 19( or @ 20 it could be that you suffer no Dex penalty?). Perhaps DR enhancements while using a shield that actually matter as opposed to 1-3/- for Dwarf to make an obvious benefit to going Fighter over Ranger. I would be still worried about AC but if my DR was good enough, hell yes I'd roll up a Fighter. For example the new Paly line coming up is a good indication that Paly's will make a comeback.

What I'm saying is that if you nerf, much like with the Paly in the past, Barbarian coming up, you do more harm than good. Change the content, give other classes a chance to shine in their own way, but don't make a player pay the price for developer oversight because they used current information to make their build. Nerf should be only if something is not working the way it should and no other way can be found. If you build a Monk splash Ranger and are getting centered bonus with a shield, or Tempest +2 ac with shield, don't cry when it gets fixed.

People will roll with the punches for only so long then they go.

[Riggs]

One way or another, power creep needs to be fixed.

Icy and monk levels and +4 insight have combined to make very high ac possible for dex/monk/ranger builds.

The problem comes when Turbine will look at the ac people are getting..and balance monsters to a top level of 80 ac where before it was much lower.

Icy raiments was a horribly unbalanced item to add to the game.

One way or another, power creep needs to be fixed, whether it is making a rule change that would limit monks ac a bit, or frankly it would also be good, or better probably to just drop Icy dodge bonus to +2, and keep the +4 prot/+3 saves...or make the robes +4 insight/+4 prot/+3 saves.

It is not that people should be penalized, but that monsters are going to be balanced by the highest ac possible, and anyone with a sub 60 ac is going to get hosed.

A level 16 monster should NOT need a +65 to hit just to hit a player. And vice versa, monsters have been overbalanced as well.

Capping wis bonus to monk levels would also be a good balance change.

its a d20 system, and there should not be a 50 point spread between high and low ac. A 40 ac should still matter for at least some monsters. But if somehting isnt done about super high ac ...then mod 9 is going to bring monsters that can hit 80 ac regularly, and everyone else is going to get blasted.

So ppl crying about nurfs need to take a step back and stop being whiners about their one character, and realize the game needs some big changes or its going to continue to get messed up.

[GlassCannon]

Everyone in this thread saying that a NAKED person with weapons in each hand should be better defended than a full-plate wearing shield-toting combat expert, just for taking a little training in a Monestary... is OUT OF THEIR FREAKING MIND!!

Seriously, think about it.

Again, the WIS AC bonus should scale as a Floating number, divided by the total levels, then multiplied by the Monk level. Monk Pures would not take this equation, as they would not have any Splash. (WIS/2/Level)*MonkLevel (WIS/2 is the current measure for the Bonus). Recalculations should be done on Login(And Level Up) to prevent exploitation by brilliant chinese plat farming coders.

A_D's idea for a Cap per Monk Level is also viable if you don't want a Rounded Floating Point.

[Lifespawn]

Everyone in this thread saying that a NAKED person with weapons in each hand should be better defended than a full-plate wearing shield-toting combat expert, just for taking a little training in a Monestary... is OUT OF THEIR FREAKING MIND!!

Seriously, think about it.

Again, the WIS AC bonus should scale as a Floating number, divided by the total levels, then multiplied by the Monk level. Monk Pures would not take this equation, as they would not have any Splash. (WIS/2/Level)*MonkLevel (WIS/2 is the current measure for the Bonus). Recalculations should be done on Login(And Level Up) to prevent exploitation by brilliant chinese plat farming coders.

A_D's idea for a Cap per Monk Level is also viable if you don't want a Rounded Floating Point.

a "monk" fighter could beat a Riot police officer in full gear because he could out maneuver him granted 1-2 hits from the billyclub would take the monk down and the monk would have to land way more hits on the officer but he could win.

imo high ac should be attainable by both sides the dex "avoid damage " builds and the heavy armor "deflect damage" builds i think armor has to have an innate dr depending on it's weight light 2dr- med 4dr- hvy 6dr- so a mith fullplate would still be medium and only 4dr- that would add some umph to the heavy armors "tank" ability.