Dear Turbine, about monk splashes and armor class..

[Kintro]

And that AC should be meaningful for all content; If you're sacrificing DPS in a game where DPS is king, then there had better be a pretty big trade-off of the defense you gain for foregoing all that damage.

Anyways, like I said; I agree with ya that it needs to be looked at. I also agree with the insight " fix ". It's logical and it works. But as a player of two high AC builds, I'm not so sure high 50s AC is offering the benefits you seem to think it is.

You're only looking at it from a Monk Splash vs S&B perspective, shouldn't pure monks be able to get such a high max AC? They sacrifice a lot of DPS and DR to get the saves/AC they can.

[Borror0]

No, but if he had limitless control over Turbine and DDO, and the whimsy to wield it however he wished. his opinion would be the way it is.

Wrong, because then you could make the argument that "perhaps he is lying to excuse his laziness".

[branmakmuffin]

Wrong

You're wrong whenever you say I'm wrong.

[bandyman1]

You're only looking at it from a Monk Splash vs S&B perspective, shouldn't pure monks be able to get such a high max AC? They sacrifice a lot of DPS and DR to get the saves/AC they can.

What's to stop them from doing so ?

Monk can use a shield clickie, and benefit from pally aruas and barkskin as well as anyone. Considering they get innate AC additions as they level, and class enhancements for higher Wis; They'd end up with an AC = to any S&B, and higher than any ranger splash build.

So, I guess I'm not seeing your point. How would changing the Wis bonus to an insight addition single out pure monks building for AC for a nerf again ?

[ShaeNightbird]

The Earth is round, in your opinion.

My opinion is that it's a spherical ellipsoid. Seeing the photos taken of it from space do help to sway the argument in that general direction, and validate poor embattled Archimedes, who seems to be under attack quite often lately for such controversial views.

[branmakmuffin]

My opinion is that it's a spherical ellipsoid. Seeing the photos taken of it from space do help to sway the argument in that general direction, and validate poor embattled Archimedes, who seems to be under attack quite often lately for such controversial views.

Plus he's wrong simply because he's Canadian (Borror0, not Archimedes).

[Kintro]

What's to stop them from doing so ?

Monk can use a shield clickie, and benefit from pally aruas and barkskin as well as anyone. Considering they get innate AC additions as they level, and class enhancements for higher Wis; They'd end up with an AC = to any S&B, and higher than any ranger splash build.

So, I guess I'm not seeing your point. How would changing the Wis bonus to an insight addition single out pure monks building for AC for a nerf again ?

They'll lose out just the same as a ranger with a monk splash would. Should they? I could argue they lose out more since the 3rd tier blast effect (they can now have one to replace the +4 insight AC) on a rapier is worth a lot more than it is on a kama.

The complaint being made is that monk splashes get the wis bonus to AC with very little cost (couple of points at build, +6 item, +2 tome) whereas a pure monk makes a significant sacrifice in order to get that bonus.

I guess what I'm saying is: give us a reason to take more than two levels of monk.

EDIT: What's wrong with having the wis bonus depend on your monk levels/total levels or only kicking in at level 4 or something else that won't hurt pure monks?

[ShaeNightbird]

Plus he's wrong simply because he's Canadian (Borror0, not Archimedes).

Archimedes wasn't wrong, simply because he was Archimedes.

[bandyman1]

They'll lose out just the same as a ranger with a monk splash would. Should they? I could argue they lose out more since the 3rd tier blast effect (they can now have one to replace the +4 insight AC) on a rapier is worth a lot more than it is on a kama. This I can sort of agree with. But then again, it'd be easly remedied with GS handwraps. Diffirent argument all together. Kamas are supposed to be an inferior weapon to a rapier. That's just the way it is bro.

The complaint being made is that monk splashes get the wis bonus to AC with very little cost (couple of points at build, +6 item, +2 tome) whereas a pure monk makes a significant sacrifice in order to get that bonus. No, actually you don't make a significant sacrifice. Wisdom affects all of your attack DCs, so you are going to want it to be higher, not to mention the fact that you get an enhancement increase for it, allowing you to have a higher score, while spending less build points. Add in the fact that you get innate AC boosts while you level, and it's significantly easier for that monk to reach a higher AC without sacrificing anything.

I guess what I'm saying is: give us a reason to take more than two levels of monk. Um....best saves in the game? Highest AC potential? Immunities to **** near everything? Improved evasion? Quivering palm? DR? Diamond Soul? Abundant Step? Fast Movement?

What the hell else do you want bro? Best DPS???

EDIT: What's wrong with having the wis bonus depend on your monk levels/total levels or only kicking in at level 4 or something else that won't hurt pure monks? [COLOR="Red"]Because the ability was never supposed to work that way. And it would basicly hose anyone with a monk splash, not just monk1/rangerX/COLOR]

Comments in Red.

[branmakmuffin]

Archimedes wasn't wrong, simply because he was Archimedes.

It's all Greek to me.

[Borror0]

Um....best saves in the game? Highest AC potential? Immunities to **** near everything? Improved evasion? Quivering palm? DR? Diamond Soul? Abundant Step? Fast Movement?

Does it really makes a better character than a ranger/monk? No.

[bandyman1]

Does it really makes a better character than a ranger/monk? No.

Did I say that it did?

Or did I give the person I quoted a reason to take more than 2 levels of monk.

Also Bor, the opinion that it doesn't make a better character than a ranger/ monk is just that. An opinion.

[branmakmuffin]

Does it really makes a better character than a ranger/monk? No.

As someone who instantly deleted the only Monk he's ever rolled up, I am eminently qualified to pontificate about this.

[Borror0]

Also Bor, the opinion that it doesn't make a better character than a ranger/ monk is just that. An opinion.

True, but being an opinion does not make it any less problematic.

For some, balance has no important as playing a powerful character is unimportant to them. Since the importance of balance is subjective and not objective as each individual value balance differently, Turbine should not value balance at all? Think about it and apply your own argument to this situation and you'll probably see the flaw in it.

[Korvek]

As someone who instantly deleted the only Monk he's ever rolled up, I am eminently qualified to pontificate about this.

Was it the ki that bothered you?

[Lifespawn]

changing the wisdom to insight would really only screw over monks in the long run.

Saves monk splashes from having to craft insight to their third tier while lowering the max ac of a monk because he can't craft an insight weapon to add to his ac.

Monks do give up alot to make full use of the wisdom ac they give up str or con which is why i advocate monk lvl*2=max wisdom mod ac doesn' hurt pure monks or deep monk multiclassers only lowers the 1 or 2 monk splashes.I have a char that would lose ac from this 8 ftr 6 ranger 2 monk with a 24 wis he would lose 3 ac but it evens out the playingfield IMO.

[bandyman1]

I'm not saying that it's not problematic Borr.


What I'm saying is that currently a ranger/monk can achieve very high DPS and very high AC.

On the other hand; 16 levels of monk can achieve the highest AC in the game, and brings a wealth of defensive and special abilities to the character. But their DPS tends to be extremely low.

It's all a matter of what the player wants out of the character.

The only reason that it's not an even trade off is because this game is so geared for DPS and stat damage.

But yes; A monk should and can obtain better defense both under the current system, and if monk Wis AC bonus is changed to insight.

And, quite frankly; The monk class was never meant to be as offensive a melee class as a ranger. They were meant to win through defense and their special abilities.

[Cyr]

/not signed

The last thing this game needs is one more 'nerf'' to break one particular type of build. This nonsense is what makes people leave the game. They build toons based upon the rules in game. Once a rule is in game everything else should be explored first before changing it...instead what we get is cries for nerfs. When will people on these forums realize that Turbine has not even the faintest idea of how to balance their 'fixes'. We get all sorts of extra garbage which screws things up more with each one of these fixes. Let me list a few for you.

1) ABBOT. Exploit, which could have been easily fixed resulted in a overhaul of win conditions in the raid requiring puzzles to be completed. That raid was tough before the changes, but people were enjoying it. After it became a ghost town. Over a year later it is still not a healthy raid despite numerous incremental changes.

2) Ranger Love. People were moaning that their gimped rangers that did not understand that they could pull out melee weapons when mobs got close enough were not as strong as the other warrior classes. In comes tempest and ram's might. Together arguably the best increases to power for a class. Now we have people whining about ranger splash classes (this thread) and w/p in the hands of rangers. Fighters became second class citizens due to a completly overblown and ill concieved change. Also even funnier...many rangers stopped carrying bows at all.

3) Toughness. Dwarves were the target this time (in particular those dreaded dwarf barbs). As a 'fix' toughness enhancments at the lower end were made available to everyone with the feat. Heck I know my dwarven builds were not the best builds I had at that time and the change hardly mattered to them. Instead, my arcane and monk/ranger/rogue got a big boost to HP putting them in the mid 300 range. That was a HUGE boost for them. It made it so they could survive the one shot elite content save failures that they could not before...huge for elite shroud part 4 at the time. Oh...that second build I mentioned was by far my best build at the time...in fact all those sweet little AC builds out there got this boost.

4) Metamagic. This was a very curious one indeed. Most considered it to be a very good change. It did give wizards some love in their balance vs sorcs...but along with it came another change which basically blew the sp difference between the classes wider apart then ever. In the end sorcs (dominant before the change) became even more dominant afterwards. I remember a half dozen guildies rerolling their wizards the week after that change hit to sorcs.

[Borror0]

It's all a matter of what the player wants out of the character.

That's not wrong, that's just irrelevant.

For example, if the first step in your logic is "I want to play a monk" then, for you, the balance between classes does not influence your decision. However, that is not what Kintro was asking for. Of course, monks got their area of expertise, but it is not significant to most players. That's the problem.

Sure, there are 'reasons' go higher than two levels of monks, but very poor ones.

Remember the paladin threads back in Module 6 where people were saying Lay on Hands was a reason to go pure paladin?

[bandyman1]

That's not wrong, that's just irrelevant.

For example, if the first step in your logic is "I want to play a monk" then, for you, the balance between classes does not influence your decision. However, that is not what Kintro was asking for. Of course, monks got their area of expertise, but it is not significant to most players. That's the problem.

Sure, there are 'reasons' go higher than two levels of monks, but very poor ones.

Remember the paladin threads back in Module 6 where people were saying Lay on Hands was a reason to go pure paladin?

My point is Borr;

Give me a reason why changing monk Wis bonus to AC to an insight bonus would be a bad thing. Or somehow change the game so that a monk was no longer able to achieve the highest AC in the game?

You can't do it bro, because it won't do so.

If you want to argue about the state of monk DPS or about the fact that they need love, then that is a completely different subject than what is being discussed here. It has no baring on the subject of this thread what-so-ever.