Mod 9 Is The Ranged Character Killer

[Dorian]

Seeing as you asked...

Under optimal conditions, the numbers break down thusly:

Strength: 30 (w/ +6 item). +2 Ram's Might, +2 Rage, +4 Double Madstone = 38

Damage Bonus: +14 Strength, +2 Ram's Might, +2 Specialization, +7 Favored Enemy/Enhancement, +2 Elf Racial Bonus, +5 Mineral Bow, and +10 Bard Buff = +42

Damage: d10 +42 = 52 x4 (Deepwood Sniper) = 208 + 6 Good + 30 Good Blast = 244


Sooooo... optimal conditions, yes. But heck, that's what all these high ac building people quote their stats at, too

Please be real... don't give me fantasy. Lets talk about legitimate ranged characters.

How many 30 base str ranged focused character have you come across recently? Then talk about their to-hit with a ranged weapon.

You are doing more harm than good.

[Raithe]

Even in a situation like Shroud 4, where Arraetrikos cannot move so that ranged attackers risk neither suffering melee assault nor pulling the monster away from the melee guys, it's still not a good idea to fight the boss with ranged.

Reasons to fight Arraetrikos from ranged in both part 4 and part 5:

1) DBF cannot reliably be blocked from close range to the caster. Assuming there are characters in the party without evasion and a high reflex save (like, say, a pure cleric) - ranging evasioners can cast safety shadows starting some distance behind them.

2) It is easier to avoid bladestorms and maintain attack distance.

3) Assuming a ranged attacker doesn't necessarily have quicken, it is easier to self-heal and reapply protection and possibly fire shield.

4) You don't trust healbots.

Is it slower? ...yup. It's also more reliable (higher success rates with poorly geared groups, lower death rates with either "ubers" or casuals) and less costly in terms of group-wide repairs and possibly healing supplies.

Making the assumption that faster = better in a game you are paying to play by a time unit (even if its per month) is a poor assumption. Some people might even consider their time fighting a pit fiend as the "quality" part of the experience.

[Angelus_dead]

Reasons to fight Arraetrikos from ranged in both part 4 and part 5:

And even with all those benefits, ranged attacking is still a mistake.

It's just not a tactically-good idea unless your party is inadequate in some other way. It would be preferable if ranged combat could be a contributing part of even powerful groups, instead of a fallback for weaklings.

[Milolyen]

That's not true either.

Even in a situation like Shroud 4, where Arraetrikos cannot move so that ranged attackers risk neither suffering melee assault nor pulling the monster away from the melee guys, it's still not a good idea to fight the boss with ranged.

Actually I consider Shroud 4 a decent example of when ranged is a good idea. Much more efficient for 2 clerics to heal 2 tanks and have the rest of the dps ranged and does not take much longer.

See the problem all you ranged critics are doing is compairing dps of ranged against dps of melee versus ONE mob at a time and a steady supply of those mobs. There is almost no quests where I can not EASILY get lines of 5 + mobs in a row for both in and out of manyshot ... that is 20 attacks PER SHOT. There are also MANY quests where I can easily line up 15 - 20 mobs ... and THAT is 60 - 80 attacks PER SHOT. Sorry but yes a ranged ranger can be VERY effective when played well.

But I have said all this before and been called a liar ... no reason for that to change now.

Milolyen

[Milolyen]

And even with all those benefits, ranged attacking is still a mistake.

It's just not a tactically-good idea unless your party is inadequate in some other way. It would be preferable if ranged combat could be a contributing part of even powerful groups, instead of a fallback for weaklings.

WOW ... that one really made me laugh there A_D.

Milolyen

[transtemporal]

Wounding/WoP bows are wonderful for kiting

But I have to ask...what's so bad about Kiting?

Its a playstyle that brings out the prima donnas. Most people want to get a conga-line going to get the most use of improved precise shot which means they're generally moving away from the group, rather than doing tight circles around the group where they wouldn't have so many lined up.

This means that the melees/arcanes can't help with the mobs (or can but less effectively - casters have to recast cc/firewalls, melees lose attack bonus from moving). Its not that the melees/arcanes have to kill everything, they just want to kill everything quickly and an archer by himself takes too long.

And yes, I've seen w/p bow/repeater builds tear through mobs like anything, but an equivalent w/p weap wielder (backed up by a bunch of other team members in close proximity) would still be faster and he'd be closer to the group when its time to move on.

I dunno, I haven't seen it used in a way that is complementary to the strengths of the rest of the party. Mostly its just an opportunity for the archer to try to prove that ranged combat isn't inferior to melee.

Heres a classic line from archer in prey: "Woot! 400 manyshot damage!"

[Ranmaru2]

You don't know what you're talking about.

in order to effectively kite (keeping a steady, periodic damage flow) a melee would need to put himself up to harm's way unless he has some sort of craptastic clickie like the reaver's necklace or pit fiend cookie or something else. Intimidate requires a still close proximity that allows for the most dangerous of mob attacks, the mid-range attack.

If you do not keep hitting a mob, they will eventually ignore you and go after something else. Unless you have some haphazard throwing weapon (Still no improved precise shot - unless a ranged build) that you're praying for a high to-hit roll in order to keep damaging them. You can UMD a firewall scroll, but unless its about 10-20% of the mob's total HP, they're not going to keep following you.

AC intimidate builds can kite or keep mobs busy, but there's still the problem that they are in harms way and mobs CAN and WILL roll a 20, so there's periodic damage there.

Unless there's some golden scenario (like a Warchanter using fascinate) that I'm missing here, please let me know. Your answeres are as vague as ever. You're supplying nothing on your side other than your numerologist mind set where bigger numbers = better, yet doesn't take into consider your oh so friendly cleric.

Its a playstyle that brings out the prima donnas. Most people want to get a conga-line going to get the most use of improved precise shot which means they're generally moving away from the group, rather than doing tight circles around the group where they wouldn't have so many lined up.

That's called bad kiting. Also, with the tanks chasing in tow, that's called bad tactics on their part. If you say "Hey we got a shield line back here, bring them back to it" and the archer responds, the archer will still have aggro when the mobs are stuck on the line and the casters and tanks (who are being all babyish about not contributing) can finally "do something" but puts the cleric's attitude at risk, especially if the tanks and caster are super squish.

[Angelus_dead]

in order to effectively kite (keeping a steady, periodic damage flow) a melee would need to put himself up to harm's way unless he has some sort of craptastic clickie like the reaver's necklace or pit fiend cookie or something else. Intimidate requires a still close proximity that allows for the most dangerous of mob attacks, the mid-range attack.

If you do not keep hitting a mob, they will eventually ignore you and go after something else.

Yup, you still don't know what you're talking about. To kite in part5 requires nothing more than a single whack of damage.

[Ranmaru2]

Yup, you still don't know what you're talking about.

Well, please give an example, or are there no numbers you can give that would effectively show this situation?

Perhaps if you'd get off your high horse and "discuss" then this wouldn't be a guess what the heck is on A_D's obscure perfectionist mind.

[Angelus_dead]

Well, please give an example, or are there no numbers you can give that would effectively show this situation?

You claimed that a melee character would be inferior at kiting in Shroud 5.

That is obviously untrue to anyone who has tried it with a melee character. You walk up to the monster, hit it with a khopesh, and then run away until the rest of the party tells you to stop.

Prehaps you got confused if you've seen Shroud leaders repeatedly ask ranged attackers to kite the part 5 mobs: that's not because they're better at kiting them, but because they're worse at DPSing the other monsters. Kiting is a job given to someone who would be less effective at making a real contribution.

[Aesop]

Prehaps you got confused if you've seen Shroud leaders repeatedly ask ranged attackers to kite the part 5 mobs: that's not because they're better at kiting them, but because they're worse at DPSing the other monsters. Kiting is a job given to someone who would be less effective at making a real contribution.

Be fair A_D

they are really contributing.

they are holding he mobs away from the rest of the group so they can pick them off one at a time thus helping the group manage damage better

Aesop

[Ranmaru2]

You claimed that a melee character would be inferior at kiting in Shroud 5.

That is obviously untrue to anyone who has tried it with a melee character. You walk up to the monster, hit it with a khopesh, and then run away until the rest of the party tells you to stop.

Prehaps you got confused if you've seen Shroud leaders repeatedly ask ranged attackers to kite the part 5 mobs: that's not because they're better at kiting them, but because they're worse at DPSing the other monsters. Kiting is a job given to someone who would be less effective at making a real contribution.

and a single swing doesn't make it any shorter for anyone else when an archer can repeatedly plink the sub-bosses so that they're lower on life than a single swing.

In part II your single swing philosophy doesn't hold up, as the mobs are notorious for running back to the group if you haven't hit them for an extended period of time. The Earth and Fire elementals have repeatedly run off from my caster unless I periodically dab them with a staff of arcane power. This does not just become an isolated incident in the shroud either. Many other quests have had this behavior, be it the person shield blocking to hold a mob (like xantilar) so the rest of the party can reform, or the person running the mobs around and another person just so happens to be standing nearby.

You're expecting one example to override MANY I've given to be sufficient? Come on, you should know better.

[transtemporal]

6) Gwylan's on elite is so much easier with stuff being kited while tanks (if they even have a head on their shoulder) take out the priests first

When you need to buy a little time while everyone gets rezzed/healed up then sure its useful, but just about anyone else (except the healbot) could do the same trick.

[Angelus_dead]

and a single swing doesn't make it any shorter for anyone else when an archer can repeatedly plink the sub-bosses so that they're lower on life than a single swing.

The DPS of an archer is so low that that isn't a real benefit. All that matters is that you kept it away while the group was fighting someone else. DPS inflicted is a tiny consolation prize, especially since it is wasted by the monster's regen. Plus, several of the Shroud bosses walk so slowly that you can melee one of them while kiting another.

In part II your single swing philosophy doesn't hold up, as the mobs are notorious for running back to the group if you haven't hit them for an extended period of time.

Haha, what? No.

You're expecting one example to override MANY I've given to be sufficient? Come on, you should know better.

You didn't give "MANY", and the examples you gave were untrue. Your observations are incorrect; thus, I said you don't know what you're talking about. The situations you describe just don't happen.

I mean, a melee guy failing to pull in part2 because he didn't do enough damage? That's laughable. A caster using the laliat stick to pull aggro? Also laughable.

[Angelus_dead]

they are really contributing.

they are holding he mobs away from the rest of the group so they can pick them off one at a time thus helping the group manage damage better

Yes, they're really contributing, in the same way that the guy in POP who stands outside the cell to pull the lever is also contributing. It's a job anyone can do, so it's assigned to the character with the least ability to do anything else.

PS. I had a good comic to link here, but the server is overloaded...

[Ranmaru2]

haha, yes.

If something goes wrong and you need to keep the monsters alive, unless you sit there and hit them with a masterwork item for 10 damage a pop, they will run back to rendezvous with the rest of the group. It happens like this, also taking the Fire or the earth near the NE corner causes them to turn around and run to the group too.

A melee can pull all the mobs, but sustaining it if the (what you'd probably call) impossible event of an accidental death of one of the faster mobs occur and you fail to kill the others in time. IF one of them stays alive, then you can shield block, but better hope it has a guard or your have a guard on, as the mob will just run back to rendezvous where the majority are concentrated.

Now please go through the examples and show how they're incorrect instead of saying that by giving a series of impossible events my whole argument has been falsified.

As a general observation: You're good with numbers, but, frankly, your logic skills are bad.

[transtemporal]

To kite in part5 requires nothing more than a single whack of damage.

In fact, it doesn't even require that as long as the melee is the first person the lieutenants see, and no one else attacks.

If you say "Hey we got a shield line back here, bring them back to it" and the archer responds, the archer will still have aggro when the mobs are stuck on the line and the casters and tanks (who are being all babyish about not contributing) can finally "do something" but puts the cleric's attitude at risk, especially if the tanks and caster are super squish.

A shield wall for the archer you say? What a great idea. That reminds me, I need to go post my "Soloed abott elite" thread in achievements.

[Angelus_dead]

Now please go through the examples and show how they're incorrect instead of saying that by giving a series of impossible events my whole argument has been falsified.

They're incorrect in the same way that it's incorrect for me to say that John McCain is the US president: anyone who's gone and looked will see that things just don't happen like you say.

As a general observation: You're good with numbers, but, frankly, your logic skills are bad.

By saying something like that, you have further embarrassed yourself.

[Milolyen]

haha, yes.

If something goes wrong and you need to keep the monsters alive, unless you sit there and hit them with a masterwork item for 10 damage a pop, they will run back to rendezvous with the rest of the group. It happens like this, also taking the Fire or the earth near the NE corner causes them to turn around and run to the group too.

A melee can pull all the mobs, but sustaining it if the (what you'd probably call) impossible event of an accidental death of one of the faster mobs occur and you fail to kill the others in time. IF one of them stays alive, then you can shield block, but better hope it has a guard or your have a guard on, as the mob will just run back to rendezvous where the majority are concentrated.

Now please go through the examples and show how they're incorrect instead of saying that by giving a series of impossible events my whole argument has been falsified.

As a general observation: You're good with numbers, but, frankly, your logic skills are bad.

You have to remember Ran ... A_D does not run with sub-optimal groups, nothing ever goes wrong and if it does it is some other noobs fault or some thing other than tactics used.

Milolyen

[Angelus_dead]

You have to remember Ran ... A_D does not run with sub-optimal groups, nothing ever goes wrong and if it does it is some other noobs fault or some thing other than tactics used.

That is false, but more importantly that's irrelevant.

If hypothetically the only reason I think ranged is weak is because I use powerful groups, then that doesn't mean DDO's ranged combat rules are well-tuned. If ranged combat is only something you resort to when something goes wrong and you need either a breather to recover, or a way to slowly plink down a mob who'd wreck you at close range, then ranged is not making enough of a contribution to gameplay.

Players who walk around with a bow as their default armament will still be (rightly) viewed as someone who isn't going to contribute much upon joining a group.