Upcoming Minos Legens Fix.

[Desteria]

Ever hear of people that don't spend all day loot farming? So far, all the recommendations amount to "You should be spending 60 hours a week grinding loot!"

ONE shroud run shoudl net you enough plat with ZERO haggle ranks on a sorc to buy 100 G-hero scrolls, they realyl are NOT exspesive at all.

Heavy fort robes and rings are all over the place. In the short run, I can use a 6 cha helm, switch out my cloak, etc, but it's still going to suck.

Basically, everyone here is saying that, because I do not live in game and built my sorc based on the rules in effect at the time, that I will have to reroll; but when does that end? Am I doomed to playing gimped "balance" builds just so I will be immune to the future whims of the devs? If so, there are other games coming out. That's all I'm saying.

20 hp helm with heavy fort & +6 cha item some where else >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then heavy fort somewhere else and +6 cha helm.

[Desteria]

Not interested in upping the server drama, thanks; it's nothing personal, I just happened to notice some time ago that certain guilds had a disproportionate number of people on my "do not group with list" for various flaws in their play style, and yours is one of them. As it is, I am not the only one who avoids your PUGs, but if you are doing well, more power to you.

If you insist, however, you can ask about Kisandre/Kindre/Tawndre/Ludia with Deathwatch Guard.

Thank-you we are doing great kickign ass adn taking names.

1. That's why I already have extend, although your breakdown is flawed; I'm not spending the rest of the afternoon doing math, though.
2. By your logic, anything short of tier 3 GS SP items are useless; what you are missing is that the SP bonuses add up quickly: MT + IMT + enhancements = quite a few SP
3. Again, if you raid 6 nights a week, I can see your point; for the rest of us, the feats make sense

re:1 - love to see where my math is flawed unles si made a typo this time totaly possible I've done it a lot of times.

re:2 - hu I'm saying that the FEATS MT/IMT compare dto other feats are a loseign option, I have done pages of math and senerios and traced average spelled used betwene shrines and purty basicaly every thing that effetcs SP indirectly, emp/max/extend/highten all give you more effective SP then the MT/IMT feats....
extend buy causign less recasts
Emp/MAX buy increasing your damage per SP well past the amount of damage MT or IMT can add with there SP
Highten in less recasts due to succfull saves, though this oen is hardest to qualifie sine you also really need to take in to accoutn the clerics SP you saved but havign the CC or insta kill land the firts time thus preventing potention damage, mostly i WANT my spells to WORK...
Spell pen/gtr spell pen: buy less spells lost to SR fails IE if MT/IMT goive you 170 SP then havign both spell pen feats only needs to make 4 FoD break SR that would nto have before to be savign you SP.... it;s nto hard to figure out that at a 20% better SR buypass it does nto take that miany casts to hit that rate.

Re:3 how much you play has NOTHING to do with wich feats are better all my calcultiosn were done based on a much smaller PS pool, every thing else has remained costant in the same time frame btu SP pools have gotted bigger wich only makes the none MT/IMT optiosn BETTER, or the base pool size to make eveythign beat them much easyer to atain...

[Desteria]

Again, this character predates that.

YOU know the bonus touoghness AP hp are onyl a recent thign anyway!!!!! Drow sorcs did nto have any racial toughnes slien untill they adde dit recently what did you do before that.... because if he predates that fact that minos was a known bug that was never sposed to work he also predates the new toughness lines!!!!!!!

[Desteria]

Desteria, I need you to form some more Shroud runs. I am getting tired of joining runs that take more than 45 minutes--too many poor players that think they are otherwise.

Note: Did you know that there is a squelch option for the Forums! Uber!

We formed a pug run just the other day... 31 min compleation looting as we went....

Unfortunutly I'm addicted to speed runs, wich helps me get my shrouds in with more limited play time now, soo i like my 20 misn run group and do most shrouds with them... VoD and hound we purty much finished farming as a guild a while ago now, the loot lists are soo shallow and much of the loto soo unremarkable there just isnet a reason any more... We do still start a Titan run every 3 days or so though. Spend a lot of our time farting around reflaging for SoS.
Some of the guildies are runnign shrouds in the Pacific AM hours with Boldrin a lot though, they are good groups if you play then look for them.

[Desteria]

I probably would have taken skill focus: tumble, right? I should be thanking the devs for saving me from wasting a feat.

Whell considerign you still think MT is the bees knees, I would not put it past you to take that Excelent feat choice....
And since you already have MT/FoP I'd say it;s alreayd to late to thank them.

[Desteria]

i know feyn has me ignored, so, does anybody else find it hilarious that he thinks a drow is an optimized sorcerer?

yes!!

[Desteria]

Of course it's not going to change the position of the devs; you've got a dozen cheerleaders here that will attack anyone who disagrees with the devs, and others who feel that sorcs are overpowered and will agree with anything that makes their meatshields more important. I won't argue the overpowered point, but nobody has even acknowledged my question, much less answered it:

Why would the "fix" not simply subtract the enhancement HP when the helm is removed?

AS peopel have answered mainy times thats NOT a simple FIX thats a MAJOR change to root game mecanics, changign the item to be flat HP that stack is a SIMPLE fix... the game onyl checks your AP prerecs when you pick them to have it check them EVERY tiem you equip difrent items is a MAJOR change and a change that would cause mroe sever work very OFTEN, leaddign to the possiblitie of even more lag then we get now we want LESS lag not MORE...
WE want stable code NOT dev;s playign with base gmae code that risks all sorts of unitended side effects like compleat cascade faliures.

[Borror0]

Desteria, you really need to start using multiquote. :P

[Desteria]

Desteria, you really need to start using multiquote. :P

But but i liek whole pages of my posts when i get in to work and catch up on a days reading.....

besides IF i do that i forget what i wanted to say abotu the first post by the time i get to the lats one....

[Aranticus]

We formed a pug run just the other day... 31 min compleation looting as we went....

Unfortunutly I'm addicted to speed runs, wich helps me get my shrouds in with more limited play time now, soo i like my 20 misn run group and do most shrouds with them... VoD and hound we purty much finished farming as a guild a while ago now, the loot lists are soo shallow and much of the loto soo unremarkable there just isnet a reason any more... We do still start a Titan run every 3 days or so though. Spend a lot of our time farting around reflaging for SoS.
Some of the guildies are runnign shrouds in the Pacific AM hours with Boldrin a lot though, they are good groups if you play then look for them.

did a 38min today, not as uber but we really surprised ourselves coz people entered early, did alot of buffing. oh we looted as well

[Aranticus]

And maybe you guys should think- oh, sorry. Maybe just imagine that you are not omniscient, is all. I could point out that comparing wizards and sorcs is misleading, but you know that already, don't you? So, keep on being a good little pet, and maybe eladrin will send you a festivult card.

it is not being omniscient nor the difference between wiz and sorc. rather, its more of using sp wisely. if that 85 sp is so important to a 2000+ sp sorc, then prolly you might want to look at the way you play. everytime i see a sorc go empty in shroud part 1, i chuckle. there is no need to fod/pk every single mob, some can be left to the melees to clear. seems to me that you are the one who wants to be omniscient. either that or you aint very smart....

[Jarka]

You're missing the point; it is, overall, 1 less feat that a sorcerer can have, one way or another. Unless your sorcerer build included a toughness feat outside of the minos to begin with, but that's not terribly common, is it?

The question is still why they had to do it this way at all; if they're upset about exploiters, by which I can only imagine that they mean people who get the helm, take the enhancements, and then use a different helm and keep the HP, since otherwise it's not really an exploit because you actually have the feat, temporary or not, why would they not simply have the enhancement HP drop whenever you remove the helm?

Well, the way I see it, is the Dev's Have made their choice to fix the Helm (which they stated as long as year ago{?} they would eventually do). Some people may be unhappy, others not (i'm not upset, coz I listened to the warnings from loooong ago).

So, Feynman, you now have a choice to make. 1) You can continue to complain about this change, or 2) You can take a step back, re-evaluate your characters' strengths and weakenesses, and adapt. Will it take some effort on your part? Yes it will.

I do not play "cookie-cutter" builds. I have a couple "interesting" builds. Have I been negatively affected by some of the changes, past and up-coming? YES I HAVE! Yet my Drow ranger/fighter/rogue (still my favorite toon to play), rolled in Jan 07 when I opened up 32 pt builds, is still here. I've had to adapt....both his build, as well as my playstyle, in order to keep him an asset to those I party with.

Strengths: good dps (not outstanding, but good), reliable UMD, solid trap abilities, among a few others.

Weakenesses: 39 unbuffed AC (ouch) , ummm, errrrr, ahem *in a whisper* 16 con with tomes and item.

He can be a challenge to play and keep alive.....but what is life without a challenge??

[Lorien_the_First_One]

But that's not how it's working now; the change to not count the feat for enhancements can't be any harder than just making the enhancements contingent on continuing to wear the helm.

I agree with you that per D&D rules this is how it should work...but then a +6 dex ring should also work that way in letting you get the TWF feat. Here's the thing, it isn't coded that way, and that is a HUGE coding change as it would at a lot of checks and conditionals every time and item is removed or added and to every time a feat or enhancement must be used. It's amassive recode, its smarter to make this one item consistant with the way similar feats and enhancements already work in the game.

But you can't argue mechanics because the system does not account for action points! At this point, everything is being made up as they go along; my complaint is that they are losing consistency. I want to know what to expect by setting up my character in a certain way, without having to worry that the rules will change in the middle of the process.

You just made the case FOR the change. Consistancy demands that Minos not work as a prereq for other feats or enhancements. Those of us who expected consistancy always knew they would fix this eventually.

1. That's why I already have extend, although your breakdown is flawed; I'm not spending the rest of the afternoon doing math, though.
2. By your logic, anything short of tier 3 GS SP items are useless; what you are missing is that the SP bonuses add up quickly: MT + IMT + enhancements = quite a few SP
3. Again, if you raid 6 nights a week, I can see your point; for the rest of us, the feats make sense

You always come back to GS... and it really has nothing to do with anything. T2 gives a minor boost, T3 larger but you don't need it to hit 2500 SP, I certainly don't have it.

i know feyn has me ignored, so, does anybody else find it hilarious that he thinks a drow is an optimized sorcerer?

Well I've got a drow sorc too. It was the sorc of choice for most people two years ago because it seemed obvious with the chr bonus. I remember my guild leader being mad at me when he heard I put more than 8 into str and con as "that was a waste". People had some silly ideas back then. Low con drow certainly isn't the best way to go for "optimized". Odds are fey also has a flavor/interesting build or out of date build. I really love playing my drow sorc, but optimized...nope, that isn't what I'd call it.

[Borror0]

It was the sorc of choice for most people two years ago because it seemed obvious with the chr bonus.

Ah, Module 3: back when 10 Con was a decent amount of Con for any melee character.

[Aspenor]

I really love playing my drow sorc, but optimized...nope, that isn't what I'd call it.

I'm sure you do, and I would have had fun with it too, I'm sure, if my human hadn't hit high levels so fast. Even at 28 pt my human is a match for any drow or warforged.

[Desteria]

I'm sure you do, and I would have had fun with it too, I'm sure, if my human hadn't hit high levels so fast. Even at 28 pt my human is a match for any drow or warforged.

Dest is a 28pt human to !!!!, and becasue i was more used to PnP I wasted points on dex and stuff insted of maxign only CON and CHA, she is still rock sollid but could be optimized more imo by being a 32pt build with 2-4 more con.
I'm not cryign about the loss of my HP, I'm goign to lose the same HP or have to fit a toughnes sfeat in on her to, I don't want to lose the HP, but I knew it was commign and it;s not liek i;ve had those extra HP for that long, it was only recently they added human racial toughness to the game after all!!!!!

[relik_arkane]

Oh no, they are taking away one of my favorite glitches? I won't be able to take advantage of the system anymore? WAAAAAAA. LOL. No offense but there are other more important fixes required in this game. This one is minor to players but major from a coding standpoint. I think DDO has done a reasonable job thus far of enacting the minor tweaks required by a program of this magnitude to keep it running smoothly. So why not simply change the nature of the current toughness added by the helm? Make it Improved false life instead, although greater false life would be on a more consistant level with what is required to obtain the helm. Almost all of my toons that have this helm will be only marginally effected. Tanks already have toughness and the others do not take the enhancements offered as an unintended result of the helm.

This game is at its core a game of balance to ensure an appropriate challenge. If I built super toons, unloaded all the plat I could into them and their gear, then only ran certain quests to power level... well then the game really wouldnt be enjoyable to me. I personally do not participate in the current crafting system because it is a joke. It has absolutely nothing to do with the toon's abilities to craft. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is a collect and assemble affair and nothing more. In the core game, a toon that wants to make an item must take the feat necessary to it's creation. Partial formulas for item creation are reasonably common in high level quests and parties undertake these quests to obtain such information. Certain ingredients are difficult to obtain, often requiring forays into dangerous territories. All these things would certainly make for a more interesting and balanced crafting system. To craft an item a toon should have the feat, the plat to pay for the common ingredients and the rare ingredients all at hand. There should be an experience cost for creating items and the more potent the item the higher the cost, perhaps even a level worth of experience. Enough tangent ranting, lol.

It's a game, have fun and play. Don't cry when the rules or mechanics are clarified, adapt and become stronger for it!

[feynman]

And highten Insted of MT woudl mena the first PK landed.... with no need to cast the other 2, savign you 40sp per PKed mob + all teh damage that mob did while you wait for PK to cycle that the cleric spent SP healing.

Or my spell pen feat does the same thing, or the fact that I "wasted" points taking CHA to 20, or that I went drow instead of human, or that I put points in dex so that I can tumble between spells so the cleric doesn't have to heal me so much... you can break it down any way you want, the fact is that there are multiple ways to accomplish the goal, and mine was good until the devs made an arbitrary decision to make it bad.

So I am going to have another capped toon gathering dust because the rules changed, and the only suggestions anyone has are to level a cookie-cutter build and play more to get decent gear. The respec mechanism would be a workable solution, if not perfect, but I don't see it happening.

[boldarblood]

MT & IMT are both waste of feats on a sorc. Drop 1 or both and get your toughness back. Use the free feats on good feats, make your sorc that much better.

Grab things like both spell penetration feats, heighten, extend, empower, maximize. Those are much better feats for a sorc.

[Korvek]

Or my spell pen feat does the same thing, or the fact that I "wasted" points taking CHA to 20, or that I went drow instead of human, or that I put points in dex so that I can tumble between spells so the cleric doesn't have to heal me so much... you can break it down any way you want, the fact is that there are multiple ways to accomplish the goal, and mine was good until the devs made an arbitrary decision to make it bad.

So I am going to have another capped toon gathering dust because the rules changed, and the only suggestions anyone has are to level a cookie-cutter build and play more to get decent gear.

So...

My drow sorc's stats are probably less balanced than yours: 8/16/12/10/8/20 base. I still break 200 easily without GFL or GS items. The Minos change will give me another 2 hit points relative to where he is now. Also, I don't have any Toughness enhancements nor did I take the feat.

I honestly don't see what exactly the issue here is.