Upcoming Minos Legens Fix.

[feynman]

um ok if your goign to be callign out my guild, I'll ask you to state your character and guild as well, and the we can discuss that, but from my experance AND i was the main raid leader for a good year, filling guild raids with pugs, I had a tone of pugs sending me tells as soon as my lfm's went up, and tones of complements fro a smoth and succefull and cheap raids, our rule for VoD elite was no clerics should NOT have to use pots unlike half the vod normal pugs i see that always needed them.

Not interested in upping the server drama, thanks; it's nothing personal, I just happened to notice some time ago that certain guilds had a disproportionate number of people on my "do not group with list" for various flaws in their play style, and yours is one of them. As it is, I am not the only one who avoids your PUGs, but if you are doing well, more power to you.

If you insist, however, you can ask about Kisandre/Kindre/Tawndre/Ludia with Deathwatch Guard.

See my posts above, where i tear MT a new one I give a detailed break down and have on other ocation how for eg. extend saves you more the 85 SP in no time at all.
Check out the sorc forms there are toens of my arguments backed by numbers in there for what MT/IMT are abotu the 2 most usless feats a sorc cna take.

1. That's why I already have extend, although your breakdown is flawed; I'm not spending the rest of the afternoon doing math, though.
2. By your logic, anything short of tier 3 GS SP items are useless; what you are missing is that the SP bonuses add up quickly: MT + IMT + enhancements = quite a few SP
3. Again, if you raid 6 nights a week, I can see your point; for the rest of us, the feats make sense

[smatt]

How so? It's really simple: You cannot hold players accountable for the developers' mistakes. Off-hand, I can think of a dozen better ways to handle situations like this than the way they do, if their goal was truly to "stop exploits," starting with allowing public discussion of things that aren't working right and ending with adding walls to block exploit spots until they figure out how to fix them.

Instead, they're using it as an opportunity to reign in "overpowered" classes; worse, it seems like they are intentionally delaying the fixes so that they will be available the next time they screw up the balance.

Again, why is the solution not to simply make the enhancement HP go away when you take off the helm?

Those evil Devs... I knew they had this planned all along... Most likely with you in particular in mind Sometimes I wish I was a Dev, I could be FAR mroe devious than these folks are

Jeez, it seems MOST other people even the ones who are having to do some major work around and respecs on their toons accept this change if not for the best as one that's OK and just the way it is. Live with it.... It's not life ending for your toon, if it is..... Well dag nab it......

I think several people have offered up some options that make perfect sense for your build. At worst you'll lose a few SP or a few HP for what 2 levels, until you get another feat at LVL 18....

[feynman]

Those evil Devs... I knew they had this planned all along... Most likely with you in particular in mind Sometimes I wish I was a Dev, I could be FAR mroe devious than these folks are

Jeez, it seems MOST other people even the ones who are having to do some major work around and respecs on their toons accept this change if not for the best as one that's OK and just the way it is. Live with it.... It's not life ending for your toon, if it is..... Well dag nab it......

I think several people have offered up some options that make perfect sense for your build. At worst you'll lose a few SP or a few HP for what 2 levels, until you get another feat at LVL 18....

You're missing the point; it is, overall, 1 less feat that a sorcerer can have, one way or another. Unless your sorcerer build included a toughness feat outside of the minos to begin with, but that's not terribly common, is it?

The question is still why they had to do it this way at all; if they're upset about exploiters, by which I can only imagine that they mean people who get the helm, take the enhancements, and then use a different helm and keep the HP, since otherwise it's not really an exploit because you actually have the feat, temporary or not, why would they not simply have the enhancement HP drop whenever you remove the helm?

[Aspenor]

The pseudo-Toughness feat the helmet grants will grant 20 additional hit points to the wearer (that stack with all other sources of extra hit points) regardless of character level, and will no longer grant unintended access to enhancements that require the Toughness feat as a prerequisite.

You're missing the point; it is, overall, 1 less feat that a sorcerer can have, one way or another. Unless your sorcerer build included a toughness feat outside of the minos to begin with, but that's not terribly common, is it?

The question is still why they had to do it this way at all; if they're upset about exploiters, by which I can only imagine that they mean people who get the helm, take the enhancements, and then use a different helm and keep the HP, since otherwise it's not really an exploit because you actually have the feat, temporary or not, why would they not simply have the enhancement HP drop whenever you remove the helm?

because you weren't supposed to have access to those enhancements in the first place. reading comprehension FTW.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Maybe after I get 4 GS items and an inventory full of raid loot, but not all of us play 8 hours a day. And I only hit 200 HP with the helm and all the enhancements, but the difference in survivability is significant.

You keep saying this, but its bull. I have 1 T2 GS item on my caster, and only one of those tiers is SP and none of them are HP. GS is not your problem.

85 SP = 3 PKs

This is often meaningful in the sense of "staying alive". In any case, if I had 2400 SP, it might be different, but I only top 2k w/ MT. Again, after I get the GS codpiece, things may be different.

Still more GS whining.... It's misplaced, those items arent make or break for casters. Do you have ANY SP items? A magi item for example can be picked up dirt cheap on the AH or at a broker and gives you 200SP.

You are also aware that Wizards do quite well with hundreds less SP right? 85 SP is not a big deal.

Started with:

STR 10
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 20

The only dump stat there is WIS, unless you are using "dump stat" in the sense of "You didn't buy a stack of +2 tomes for your character," in which case, we are talking at cross-purposes.

1 less pt of CHA or a couple less of DEX might have served you well. And as a sorc, did you really need a 12 int? But whatever, you traded off HP for your build, this is the consequence.

Basically, everyone here is saying that, because I do not live in game and built my sorc based on the rules in effect at the time, that I will have to reroll; but when does that end? Am I doomed to playing gimped "balance" builds just so I will be immune to the future whims of the devs? If so, there are other games coming out. That's all I'm saying.

No, we are saying you built something that is less than ideal, and thats your choice. It doesn't mean its unplayable and if you think a handful of hitpoints or a handful of SP makes that much of a difference you really need to reasess your playstyle.

[Aranticus]

You keep saying this, but its bull. I have 1 T2 GS item on my caster, and only one of those tiers is SP and none of them are HP. GS is not your problem.



Still more GS whining.... It's misplaced, those items arent make or break for casters. Do you have ANY SP items? A magi item for example can be picked up dirt cheap on the AH or at a broker and gives you 200SP.

You are also aware that Wizards do quite well with hundreds less SP right? 85 SP is not a big deal.



1 less pt of CHA or a couple less of DEX might have served you well. And as a sorc, did you really need a 12 int? But whatever, you traded off HP for your build, this is the consequence.



No, we are saying you built something that is less than ideal, and thats your choice. It doesn't mean its unplayable and if you think a handful of hitpoints or a handful of SP makes that much of a difference you really need to reasess your playstyle.

too many 1 trick monkeys these days. 2000+ sp and still complaining. my 38 int wiz has only 1800 but i do not run out of sp very often. clever playing is something which alot lacks. ya right about this one, he should stop whining.... prolly we should call whine-one-one

[Aspenor]

85 SP is not a big deal.

Not a big deal is an understatement. 85 sp is a whole 2 casts of unheightened Finger of Death, and any sorcerer expending a feat on this is not making a good decision.

[feynman]

You keep saying this, but its bull. I have 1 T2 GS item on my caster, and only one of those tiers is SP and none of them are HP. GS is not your problem.



Still more GS whining.... It's misplaced, those items arent make or break for casters. Do you have ANY SP items? A magi item for example can be picked up dirt cheap on the AH or at a broker and gives you 200SP.

You are also aware that Wizards do quite well with hundreds less SP right? 85 SP is not a big deal.



1 less pt of CHA or a couple less of DEX might have served you well. And as a sorc, did you really need a 12 int? But whatever, you traded off HP for your build, this is the consequence.



No, we are saying you built something that is less than ideal, and thats your choice. It doesn't mean its unplayable and if you think a handful of hitpoints or a handful of SP makes that much of a difference you really need to reasess your playstyle.

Oh noes! I didn't build your cookie cutter sorc! I must be punished!

Honestly, are you really comfortable with every character being the same? Go play WpW.

[bobbryan2]

Oh noes! I didn't build your cookie cutter sorc! I must be punished!

Honestly, are you really comfortable with every character being the same? Go play WpW.

Well, at least those 'cookie cutter' builds aren't crying that 20 HP has irrevocably broken their build.

[Aspenor]

Well, at least those 'cookie cutter' builds aren't crying that 20 HP has irrevocably broken their build.

or that they need 85 spell points....

[nytewolf]

Its not about cookie cutter builds. Its about building a character that is survivable and without exploiting an item that was stated long ago its not working as intended.

A few things about your build have been pointed out or shown to be lacking or not needed. For instance your starting Dex is 12 Why? What does 2 points of dex give you? (Actually for a caster even an 18 with item is a waste) For that matter regarding Mental toughness drop it and take toughness then go to Korthos Island run Misery's Peak get the Archivist's Necklace and you have a clickie that covers most of your SP lost by swapping feats.

Personally im starting to dislike the low hp Drow Sorc's that seem to be popping up more and more. This is not about cookie cutter this is about common sence in regards to end game content and High level quests. I personally dislike seeing casters that can be one shot by Harry after having Resist fire and Fireshield placed upon them.

[feynman]

too many 1 trick monkeys these days. 2000+ sp and still complaining. my 38 int wiz has only 1800 but i do not run out of sp very often. clever playing is something which alot lacks. ya right about this one, he should stop whining.... prolly we should call whine-one-one

And maybe you guys should think- oh, sorry. Maybe just imagine that you are not omniscient, is all. I could point out that comparing wizards and sorcs is misleading, but you know that already, don't you? So, keep on being a good little pet, and maybe eladrin will send you a festivult card.

[Tanka]

And maybe you guys should think- oh, sorry. Maybe just imagine that you are not omniscient, is all. I could point out that comparing wizards and sorcs is misleading, but you know that already, don't you? So, keep on being a good little pet, and maybe eladrin will send you a festivult card.

Hilarious.

[feynman]

Its not about cookie cutter builds. Its about building a character that is survivable and without exploiting an item that was stated long ago its not working as intended.

Again, this character predates that.

A few things about your build have been pointed out or shown to be lacking or not needed. For instance your starting Dex is 12 Why? What does 2 points of dex give you? (Actually for a caster even an 18 with item is a waste) For that matter regarding Mental toughness drop it and take toughness then go to Korthos Island run Misery's Peak get the Archivist's Necklace and you have a clickie that covers most of your SP lost by swapping feats.

Look, you obviously have a different idea of what the class is supposed to do than I do; fair enough, but don't come off like your idea is the one true definition.

Personally im starting to dislike the low hp Drow Sorc's that seem to be popping up more and more. This is not about cookie cutter this is about common sence in regards to end game content and High level quests. I personally dislike seeing casters that can be one shot by Harry after having Resist fire and Fireshield placed upon them.

That's wonderful; what does that have to do with me having my optimized build screwed up by devs overreacting to exploiters?

[Lehrman]

This will probably be a useless post, but here goes...

Do not respond to Feynman. He is right, you are wrong. Nothing you will say can change that he believes this to be true. Let him blather on to his heart's content in the vain hope that someone somewhere agrees with him and go back to playing the game.

Desteria, I need you to form some more Shroud runs. I am getting tired of joining runs that take more than 45 minutes--too many poor players that think they are otherwise.

Note: Did you know that there is a squelch option for the Forums! Uber!

[feynman]

This will probably be a useless post, but here goes...

Do not respond to Feynman. He is right, you are wrong. Nothing you will say can change that he believes this to be true. Let him blather on to his heart's content in the vain hope that someone somewhere agrees with him and go back to playing the game.

Nice; passive aggressive with that unmistakable patronizing tone. Gourmet trolling, congratulations.

Desteria, I need you to form some more Shroud runs. I am getting tired of joining runs that take more than 45 minutes--too many poor players that think they are otherwise.

Irony, thy name is forum troll.

[Junts]

Again, this character predates that.



Look, you obviously have a different idea of what the class is supposed to do than I do; fair enough, but don't come off like your idea is the one true definition.



That's wonderful; what does that have to do with me having my optimized build screwed up by devs overreacting to exploiters?

Hi, would you like someone to buy you a siberys dragonshard?

drow sorc with 240 hp //// optimized build, not same.

you can continue to use minos as-is, t hen take toughness as your lv 18 feat; quit whining, you're just embarrassing yourself.

[Aspenor]

drow?

optimized?

that wasn't really said, was it? what a joke.

[smatt]

You're missing the point; it is, overall, 1 less feat that a sorcerer can have, one way or another. Unless your sorcerer build included a toughness feat outside of the minos to begin with, but that's not terribly common, is it?

The question is still why they had to do it this way at all; if they're upset about exploiters, by which I can only imagine that they mean people who get the helm, take the enhancements, and then use a different helm and keep the HP, since otherwise it's not really an exploit because you actually have the feat, temporary or not, why would they not simply have the enhancement HP drop whenever you remove the helm?

Likely the way it was coded in the first place..... And changing that bit of code affected otehr things. So they did it when they felt it was time to do the whole shabang....

Still not the end of the world..... Yet another change in a constantl;y changing game, sometimes you win IE Sorcs getting X2 to bonus SP items, and sometimes you lose.... Now what would you say if they took those SP from you? Personally, I think it's a crime they gave the Sorcs all those SP and left he other casting classes in the dust

They never intended the Minos to provide the toughness feat, and it doesn't really matter how long they waited to fix it. Iwould consider yourself lucky to have benefited this long from it as with myself and all the others. The true weakness of the Sorc class has always been and should remain their lack of HP, they're extremely powerful except for that. They've given you a means to increase your HP, but it will cost you a bit.... There is a way out....

And since the out cry against this change is only a very few people of the very many that are being affected, it's not likely going to change the position of the Devs.

[feynman]

Hi, would you like someone to buy you a siberys dragonshard?

Not the problem, but thanks.

drow sorc with 240 hp //// optimized build, not same.

Optimized for what? Obviously the change doesn't affect you so much, so you feel justified in belittling me. Pride goeth.

you can continue to use minos as-is, t hen take toughness as your lv 18 feat; quit whining, you're just embarrassing yourself.

Again, the whole point is that it is a loss of a feat in a feat-poor class; what, you don't think I had plans for that feat? Other things that would have been nice? I probably would have taken skill focus: tumble, right? I should be thanking the devs for saving me from wasting a feat. /sarcasm off

I'm not saying that this character is useless, but it will quickly become a shroud farmer while I roll up the new flavor of the month. Sorry to embarrass myself because I'm sick of my characters becoming obsolete as soon as they cap, but that's what happens when the rules change in the middle of the game.