Upcoming Minos Legens Fix.

[feynman]

If your sorc was a great build he'd still be great even with the loss of 18 hps. If your sorc was a great build but those 18 hps will somehow make him gimp if he doesn't have them then you can afford to loose a feat to take toughness and then your build would be even better because you'll have an extra 20!

18 hps does not ruin a great build, heck it doesn't even ruin a crappy one.

Cookie cutter argument; look, I'm glad you like your sorc, but how would you feel if whatever basis you used to build it were suddenly changed? I built my character around the rules as they existed at the time, but somehow I'm the one at fault? I don't think so.

Now, it was recently pointed out to me that suggesting that this was cheating was offensive, and maybe it was, but only if it is true; the fact of the matter is that any DM who tried this in PnP would have been lynched by his players, or at least stuck with the pizza bill.

At the same time, any number of people have called me a cheater, despite the details of the situation, and no one has called them out at all. Oh, sure, the cheerleaders will disagree with the devs when a change affects them, but anyone else is just whining. I have no respect for sycophants and hypocrites.

[Junts]

Cookie cutter argument; look, I'm glad you like your sorc, but how would you feel if whatever basis you used to build it were suddenly changed? I built my character around the rules as they existed at the time, but somehow I'm the one at fault? I don't think so.

Now, it was recently pointed out to me that suggesting that this was cheating was offensive, and maybe it was, but only if it is true; the fact of the matter is that any DM who tried this in PnP would have been lynched by his players, or at least stuck with the pizza bill.

At the same time, any number of people have called me a cheater, despite the details of the situation, and no one has called them out at all. Oh, sure, the cheerleaders will disagree with the devs when a change affects them, but anyone else is just whining. I have no respect for sycophants and hypocrites.

dear feynman,

keep your minos on for now,

take toughness at level 18

shut the **** up

kthxbai

[feynman]

dear feynman,

keep your minos on for now,

take toughness at level 18

shut the **** up

kthxbai

No, kthxbye

[Eelpout]

I have no respect for sycophants and hypocrites.

What about Elephants and Picrite?

[feynman]

What about Elephants and Picrite?

Elephants have long memories, trunks, and...

[smatt]

Cookie cutter argument; look, I'm glad you like your sorc, but how would you feel if whatever basis you used to build it were suddenly changed? I built my character around the rules as they existed at the time, but somehow I'm the one at fault? I don't think so.

Now, it was recently pointed out to me that suggesting that this was cheating was offensive, and maybe it was, but only if it is true; the fact of the matter is that any DM who tried this in PnP would have been lynched by his players, or at least stuck with the pizza bill.

At the same time, any number of people have called me a cheater, despite the details of the situation, and no one has called them out at all. Oh, sure, the cheerleaders will disagree with the devs when a change affects them, but anyone else is just whining. I have no respect for sycophants and hypocrites.

LOL......


Dude.... Oh nevermind it's all been said.... REROLL!

[Frodo_Lives]

Cookie cutter argument; look, I'm glad you like your sorc, but how would you feel if whatever basis you used to build it were suddenly changed? I built my character around the rules as they existed at the time, but somehow I'm the one at fault? I don't think so.

You didn't build your character around the toughness enhancements, they came out after you started him. Even if you did build him after the racial toughness enhancements came out with the thought in mind that you could make up the lowish hps using the enhancements and Minos helm, you knew it was a bug and that the devs had said that it would be fixed. You bet wrongly, I'm not critical that you took adavantage of a known bug because I for one don't count that as an exploit. But the fact remains that it was a bug, it was said that it would be fixed, and now it is. You really don't have a leg to stand on when you say you just built your character around the rules as they existed because you knew that those same rules would change.

Now, it was recently pointed out to me that suggesting that this was cheating was offensive, and maybe it was, but only if it is true; the fact of the matter is that any DM who tried this in PnP would have been lynched by his players, or at least stuck with the pizza bill.

I think taking advantage of a piece of equipment is not cheating, but comparing this to PnP is not the same. A DM would not have this problem with unintended code causing unforseen problems. If a DM wanted to change something in his game, he could do so. Fortunately with a real life DM he could change things in such a way as to make it seem part of the game, with an MMO it's not anywhere near as simple.

And if you played with a DM who realized that after 2+ years of using a magic item or spell incorrectly and he decides to change it to how it should work then yea it would take more finesse than what is capable in an MMO, but I also think his players would be a hell of a lot more understanding.

At the same time, any number of people have called me a cheater, despite the details of the situation, and no one has called them out at all. Oh, sure, the cheerleaders will disagree with the devs when a change affects them, but anyone else is just whining. I have no respect for sycophants and hypocrites.

This change affects me as well, but I understand that this was a bug and was going to be fixed. This doesn't make me a cheerleader, sycophant or a hypocrite. We are talking about losing 18 hps at level 16 if you stay as is, or gaining 18 on top of your low total if you swap out a feat. You just refuse to listen to any opinion other than yours which is that you are getting screwed over. You are not getting screwed over as many people have explained, you can also very easily make the needed changes to increase your hps with little sacrifice. You just decide not to and continue to stomp your feet and insist that this fix is something its not.

[feynman]

LOL......


Dude.... Oh nevermind it's all been said.... REROLL!

Here, take your 2 cents back; I don't want them.

[Hobgoblin]

but anyone else is just whining. I have no respect for sycophants and hypocrites.

this has just degenerated into name calling.


could we get this mess of a thread closed and forgotten about?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Devs = cheaters, mods = censors

You are the cheater....not the devs.

And the mods are supposed to remove posts that break forum rules...thats why they are called moderators

this is bordering on the dumbest arguement i have ever witnessed

Just bordering?

No, it does not.



Ignorance of something that we cannot possibly know is no excuse? Well, I'm not allowed to use the "C" word in connection to the devs anymore, so let's just say that anyone who believes that is a moron.

Then you have now lost every bit of credibilty you had left. If your char predates that post then your char predates the ability to take racial toughness feats as a drow anyway.

At the same time, any number of people have called me a cheater, despite the details of the situation, and no one has called them out at all. Oh, sure, the cheerleaders will disagree with the devs when a change affects them, but anyone else is just whining. I have no respect for sycophants and hypocrites.

Because you are by definition a cheter. You don't call someone out for telling the truth. You took adantage of a broken system to get something you weren't entitled to. And if you know the forums at all you know most of the ppl in this thread regularily critise the devs for choices that don't make sense to us.

[feynman]

You didn't build your character around the toughness enhancements, they came out after you started him. Even if you did build him after the racial toughness enhancements came out with the thought in mind that you could make up the lowish hps using the enhancements and Minos helm, you knew it was a bug and that the devs had said that it would be fixed. You bet wrongly, I'm not critical that you took adavantage of a known bug because I for one don't count that as an exploit. But the fact remains that it was a bug, it was said that it would be fixed, and now it is. You really don't have a leg to stand on when you say you just built your character around the rules as they existed because you knew that those same rules would change.

Not exactly; the character was shelved until the change, became good after the change, and now is becoming bad again. It's been a colossal waste of time.

Let me reiterate; it was not a bug that I knew of at the time I decided to level the character up.

I think taking advantage of a piece of equipment is not cheating, but comparing this to PnP is not the same. A DM would not have this problem with unintended code causing unforseen problems. If a DM wanted to change something in his game, he could do so. Fortunately with a real life DM he could change things in such a way as to make it seem part of the game, with an MMO it's not anywhere near as simple.

Sure, but he would also have to allow the players to retroactively adjust to the rule for fairness' sake, or the players would be understandably upset. And here we are.

And if you played with a DM who realized that after 2+ years of using a magic item or spell incorrectly and he decides to change it to how it should work then yea it would take more finesse than what is capable in an MMO, but I also think his players would be a hell of a lot more understanding.

I think you have been in some pretty tame PnP groups

Humor aside, the fact is that they could have come up with a better fix, as many people have suggested; this suggests that their stated reason for the change is... not the entire truth?

This change affects me as well, but I understand that this was a bug and was going to be fixed. This doesn't make me a cheerleader, sycophant or a hypocrite. We are talking about losing 18 hps at level 16 if you stay as is, or gaining 18 on top of your low total if you swap out a feat. You just refuse to listen to any opinion other than yours which is that you are getting screwed over. You are not getting screwed over as many people have explained, you can also very easily make the needed changes to increase your hps with little sacrifice. You just decide not to and continue to stomp your feet and insist that this fix is something its not.

Where did this idea that I came here looking for advice come from? Any way you look at it, I'm losing something, and anyone who actually plays the game rather than trolling the forums, knows how susceptible min/max builds are to even small mistakes in the details; this change is like the devs retroactively messing up my stats.

[feynman]

You are the cheater....not the devs.

I'm not the one changing the rules.

And the mods are supposed to remove posts that break forum rules...thats why they are called moderators

And if you looked at what happened, you would see that they erased half of my thread; some moderation.

Just bordering?

And yet you keep the argument going with your inane nonsense; if you think the argument is stupid, why are you here?

Then you have now lost every bit of credibilty you had left. If your char predates that post then your char predates the ability to take racial toughness feats as a drow anyway.

Well, if you were actually reading the posts and not just being a self-righteous rules lawyer, you would know that my character was created before the enhancements on the assumption that sorcerers got class HP, shelved when I discovered that they don't, reactivated and leveled when the racial HP came out, and is now being nerfed. But I guess actually knowing what you are talking about comes second to joining a crowd heckling someone for their misfortune; what a kind soul you must be.

Because you are by definition a cheter. You don't call someone out for telling the truth. You took adantage of a broken system to get something you weren't entitled to. And if you know the forums at all you know most of the ppl in this thread regularily critise the devs for choices that don't make sense to us.

You criticize them for things that affect you, hypocrite; anyone else is just whining, right? That's the second time you've called me a cheater; you are either not reading the thread, which makes you a cheerleader, or you are intentionally misrepresenting the facts of the situation, which would make you a liar; which is it?

[kingfisher]

i think, maybe, this thread beats out this one.

ok now this one wins for sure

[Spisey]

ok now this one wins for sure

/signed

Thread of the week material right here!

[Lewcipher]

Well, if you were actually reading the posts and not just being a self-righteous rules lawyer, you would know that my character was created before the enhancements on the assumption that sorcerers got class HP, shelved when I discovered that they don't, reactivated and leveled when the racial HP came out, and is now being nerfed. But I guess actually knowing what you are talking about comes second to joining a crowd heckling someone for their misfortune; what a kind soul you must be.



You criticize them for things that affect you, hypocrite; anyone else is just whining, right? That's the second time you've called me a cheater; you are either not reading the thread, which makes you a cheerleader, or you are intentionally misrepresenting the facts of the situation, which would make you a liar; which is it?

So you built a character, then changed that character around 1 feat??? No offense, but I don't see how that can break a character. BTW Minos Legions was never supposed to open up the toughness AP line. Obviously you knew this, but ignored it.

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIZ-SGljHik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94wdRDWX5Lo

[Mhykke]

Alright, enough already.

I just checked, and you've been on the forums quite a while. From the second anyone noticed this bug, people were talking about it being changed.

You didn't cheat. Devs didn't cheat. Nobody cheated. It was a simple bug, everyone knew about it, always, and now it is being changed. Live with it, or don't, it's your call.

If you built around this bug, it's your own fault. I'm sorry, I'm usually sympathetic, but this is beyond absurd. You're treating this as though this were some pen and paper rule that turbine's arbitrarily changing. It's not. It's a game bug that has been discussed the day someone noticed the bug. Again, enough already. If you "built" a character around it, again, it's your own fault. Enough yapping.

[Hobgoblin]

Alright, enough already.

I just checked, and you've been on the forums quite a while. From the second anyone noticed this bug, people were talking about it being changed.

You didn't cheat. Devs didn't cheat. Nobody cheated. It was a simple bug, everyone knew about it, always, and now it is being changed. Live with it, or don't, it's your call.

If you built around this bug, it's your own fault. I'm sorry, I'm usually sympathetic, but this is beyond absurd. You're treating this as though this were some pen and paper rule that turbine's arbitrarily changing. It's not. It's a game bug that has been discussed the day someone noticed the bug. Again, enough already. If you "built" a character around it, again, it's your own fault. Enough yapping.

qft (in the good way)

and feynman qft in as in quit freaking typing. before this peeps may have thought you were a biased fool. now people know it.

[eyepuppy]

I'm not the one changing the rules.



And if you looked at what happened, you would see that they erased half of my thread; some moderation.





And yet you keep the argument going with your inane nonsense; if you think the argument is stupid, why are you here?



Well, if you were actually reading the posts and not just being a self-righteous rules lawyer, you would know that my character was created before the enhancements on the assumption that sorcerers got class HP, shelved when I discovered that they don't, reactivated and leveled when the racial HP came out, and is now being nerfed. But I guess actually knowing what you are talking about comes second to joining a crowd heckling someone for their misfortune; what a kind soul you must be.



You criticize them for things that affect you, hypocrite; anyone else is just whining, right? That's the second time you've called me a cheater; you are either not reading the thread, which makes you a cheerleader, or you are intentionally misrepresenting the facts of the situation, which would make you a liar; which is it?

Wow. I loved reading this thread. The last 7 pages were the best though. Feynman... I don't know what I can can say here. If you built a character based on one feat, then that's your fault. There are casters running around with over 350 HP. Heck, my gimp caster has about 290 and he does just fine in quests. If you are the last man standing all the time in quests with only 5 HP left, you either need to rethink your strategies, or get some new people to run with. 20 HP is no going to be the end of the world. When you build a toon around one thing, you lose everything in a nerf. Suck it up man. It was a bug.

[xman26]

Temporary effects should never permit access to permanent feats or enhancements. You can't drink a Bull's Strength potion with a 10 strength character to qualify for Power Attack.

And neither should you guys take forever to fix a relatively simple fix of a bug which has thus caused this issue to begin with. Mean while you have seen fit to nerf, nerf, and nerf even some more this game to play to the power gamer croud in game meanwhile totally screwing over the casual gamer base.

FYI: Shroud crafting is buggy at times and I would like my god damned Min2 neckalce fixed **** it. bad coding screwed me on it and to date all I have gotten from anyone is GO **** YOURSELF!