Upcoming Minos Legens Fix.

[feynman]

Again, teh Minos legion wasn't game breaking either, so why fix it by your own standards?

Because it's a caster nerf, not a bug fix.

[moorewr]

If we do not have the minos helm equiped we are ok right? Or is it a bug that if we ever equiped it our enhancments will be wiped?

I understand Eladrin to say there is one and only one specific scenario: if you do not have the toughness feat, but have toughness enhancements trained while wearing the helm.


The potential impact of this is so minor (4 HP for everyone at level 20, 20 to 40 HP on characters who took those enhancements without toughness, depending on the race) that I find the outrage kind of peculiar.

PS: Are there really that many barbarians without toughness that have low enough HP for this to matter?

[darkrhavyn]

Sitting at 206; not sure where those 10 are missing.



With MT, I run 2045 SP; to take the toughness feat, I am going to have to drop another feat, either max, emp, spell pen, MT,

Without the toughness feat, I lose 38 hp, so technically I would be at 168.

MT = 85 SP; I do not have IMT.

Let me list a few things that would make this acceptable:

1. If there was a respec mechanism.
2. If GS items could be taken apart to retrieve at least the shroud ingredients.
3. If I had any confidence that the rules would not change again at a later date.

This is not a death-knell for the build, but it changes it from an optimized (yes, kind of min/max'd) solo build to a party squishy; I really need to switch out at least 4 spells and 1 or 2 feats, and even then, my main character will revert back to my 28-point halfling, whose build I will not post out of deathly fear that it will be nerfed next.

Ok, I realize I build squishy characters---when I got my original cleric to 200 HP with buffs I almost died in happiness...then I died cause I thought I could tank lol.

But seriously...I have a capped wizard, sorc and two clerics none of which ever started with above a 10 CON--do they die occassionally- sure...but as time has gone on, Ive learned what protections they need, how to avoid instadeath delayed balst fireballs and that quicken is a freakin amazing feat for a cleric lol.

Fixing the minos legion helm might not have been my priority as a dev...but losing twenty hp by losing the 2 APs isnt going to make ANY character unplayable or useless...my gimped clerics and casters have never had a minos legion helm (cleric likes her Helm of Morannon too well to give it up) and until a couple of months ago, none of my characters would waste a feat on toughness as they couldnt get the enhancements for it anyway (elves...I play elves) and non-melees.

My advice, take a breath...reset your enhancements without the racial ones, and go solo a quest youve solo'd with them and see how much of difference it really makes. If you find that it really changes things for you, then respec one of your feats for toughness and get the APs back.....just my opinion, but Ive never seen the purpose of maximize and empower on a sorc ---500 points of damage vs 750...yada yada they all died on the first fireball anyway.

[Mindspat]

With the helm, I get close to 200, and my feats are max, emp, MT, spell pen, and FoP; which of those can I live without? (hint: the answer is not "max," "emp," "MT," "spell pen," or "FoP.")

It's fantastic that your build wasn't based on the helm; what are you going to say when they decide to "balance" whatever it is that makes your sorc exceptional, if he is?

I've read a lot of your posts in this thread and they are coming across whinny and unrealistic. Please don't take that as an insult since forums aren't always effecient in getting our dispositions across when commenting on "change".

I agree your chosen feats compliment your playstyle (FoD spammer?) but you most deffinetly have room for improvement. A suggestion would be to drop Mental Toughness (85 sp) since it would have the least impact upon your overall playstyle while allowing you to officialy, and legitametly, regain the hitpoints you are without.

My 28pt Elf Sorcerer has Light Armor Profecientcy, Weapon Finnesse, Force of Personality, Max, Emp and Ext. Other then joking around I suspect anyone that runs with my character would say it's extremely effective and deffintely not gimped without the feats you claim are essential. (feel free to pm me)

If one of my builds requires an adjustment if Turbine balances a bug I've been profiting from I would have no ground to complain.

[frugal_gourmet]

Funniest line in the thread; for sarcasm, you could have picked a better feat, like great fortitude or something.

How do you mean? Is not a single toughness feat essentially required for 60-100 hit points?

[xman26]

Corrected for accuracy.

No,wat you have done is made a misstatement. Mine is the correct one.

[feynman]

How do you mean? Is not a single toughness feat essentially required for 60-100 hit points?

Only for melee classes, that was part of my point; this change does not affect DPS builds at all.

[Hendrik]

No,wat you have done is made a misstatement. Mine is the correct one.

By evidence posted in this very thread, my correction is quite accurate.



Give Fred my best when you see him.

[feynman]

I've read a lot of your posts in this thread and they are coming across whinny and unrealistic. Please don't take that as an insult since forums aren't always effecient in getting our dispositions across when commenting on "change".

Fair enough, but how you can look at others' posts and call mine whiny I have no idea.

I agree your chosen feats compliment your playstyle (FoD spammer?)

Where did you get that idea?

but you most deffinetly have room for improvement. A suggestion would be to drop Mental Toughness (85 sp) since it would have the least impact upon your overall playstyle while allowing you to officialy, and legitametly, regain the hitpoints you are without.

Again, I'm not really looking for advice, here; no offense, but you have a misconception about my play style to begin with, and I'm not respeccing to take toughness.

My 28pt Elf Sorcerer has Light Armor Profecientcy, Weapon Finnesse, Force of Personality, Max, Emp and Ext. Other then joking around I suspect anyone that runs with my character would say it's extremely effective and deffintely not gimped without the feats you claim are essential. (feel free to pm me)

You obviously have a different build; unlike some others around here, I'm not going to say that you did something wrong, but your build is not my build, and so what works for you is unlikely to work for me. I'm certain that you can build a sorcerer that does not require the feats that I have, but you have to build it that way from the beginning, and there's not always anything you can do to a capped character to change that.

If one of my builds requires an adjustment if Turbine balances a bug I've been profiting from I would have no ground to complain.

"Adjustment" is fine if it's a "bug"; in this case, no amount of "adjusting" is going to fix the build, and it was not a "bug" when I did it. I get to start over. Again. That's my real complaint. Well, that and the stack of tapestries I bought that are now worthless.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Only for melee classes, that was part of my point; this change does not affect DPS builds at all.

of course it does...they have the same choice as you, give up another feat or keep toughness. Your argument that this is targetted against casters is without merit

[smatt]

Give it up Feynman is mad, he has an idea that this is simply an attack on his build. That's fine..... I see it as:

#1 Fixing something that was implemented in a way. never intended.

#2 Solving a problem that extremely powerful classes were too easily gaining too many benefits, that covered or solved the inherent weaknesses of a particular class.

One major criticism I have of DDO, is that too often the inherent weakness of each class is easily mitigated to almost 0. Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses, and at this point that's not the case really. Now, they're trying to rethink things a bit with the level cap going up, giving some classes more nice tasty cookies, and some classes doses of nasty broccoli . Although IMO, they've still way over done 2 weapon fighting ranger splash thingys ... But that' s another story about huge mistakes that they may have not foreseen, it's a big game with lots to think about and I don't' care how many game geniuses we have on these forums..... It's tough to look a this whole DDO world and not make mistakes and missteps in design and implementation.

This is and will affect many of the builds out there, many of them will have to build around it, most will lose something, be it a feat of some kind or HP. Big deal, if it's a deal breaker for your build you took advantage of something that the Devs unfortunately didn't look at properly or foresee. OR, you built something that was right on the edge of viability anyway. Either way, get over it.... The game changes.... Anybody who's played for any period of time knows this.....

He's argued with every GOOD alternative offered to him to mitigate this change. There's no question his build will take a hit, although a very mnor one. And he refuses to actually do what he should've done itn the first place if he was goign to "Optimize" his build. And that's craft some shroud items, or run more raids to outfit his toon properly for the end game content, which he clearly isn't built or set-up for anyways....

[moorewr]

"Adjustment" is fine if it's a "bug"; in this case, no amount of "adjusting" is going to fix the build, and it was not a "bug" when I did it. I get to start over. Again. That's my real complaint. Well, that and the stack of tapestries I bought that are now worthless.

How are they worthless? How was it not a bug that you could take an enhancement that listed a pre-req you did not have?

[Mindspat]

Fair enough, but how you can look at others' posts and call mine whiny I have no idea.*

You obviously have a different build; unlike some others around here, I'm not going to say that you did something wrong, but your build is not my build, and so what works for you is unlikely to work for me. I'm certain that you can build a sorcerer that does not require the feats that I have, but you have to build it that way from the beginning, and there's not always anything you can do to a capped character to change that.

* Well, that and the stack of tapestries I bought that are now worthless.

The build I have was not designed from the start. It's something I later adjusted and fine tuned at level 16 to suit my playstyle.

[smatt]

The build I have was not designed from the start. It's something I later adjusted and fine tuned at level 16 to suit my playstyle.

No way dude.....

[feynman]

of course it does...they have the same choice as you, give up another feat or keep toughness. Your argument that this is targetted against casters is without merit

DPS builds have toughness already, usually 2 or 3 times. Even if they don't, they have the spare feats to get it without having to give up another key feat. Do you actually play the game, or just troll the forum?

How are they worthless? How was it not a bug that you could take an enhancement that listed a pre-req you did not have?

What would I use the tapestries on now? The totemic lavalier?

Why should a granted feat work differently than a taken feat? Why was it not a bug until the devs realized that casters were using it to up their HP?

The build I have was not designed from the start. It's something I later adjusted and fine tuned at level 16 to suit my playstyle.

I said "there's not always anything you can do to a capped character to change that." It's great that your build could be tweaked; mine was min/max'd from the beginning, which is always a risky move because it can go awry (and it is hard to tweak), but in this case it worked out until the rules changed.

[Aspenor]

lol a caster nerf???

keep talkin, buddy. this just keeps getting more entertaining.

[Lymnus]

Just out of personal curiosity, how long have you had your sorcerer?

I'm curious, because I'd like to know if you built him before or after the release of racial toughness enhancements. Because if you're had a sorcerer a quite extended time, you couldn't have built your sorcerer around the Minos Legen enhancements concept.

[feynman]

Just out of personal curiosity, how long have you had your sorcerer?

I'm curious, because I'd like to know if you built him before or after the release of racial toughness enhancements. Because if you're had a sorcerer a quite extended time, you couldn't have built your sorcerer around the Minos Legen enhancements concept.

Lol, was wondering when someone would ask that; this character is an oddity in that it was actually the first drow I was able to roll almost a year ago. What happened is that I thought from my first character that I could get the toughness enhancements, found out I couldn't, and shelved this character, not deleting only because I got to level 5 and could finish STK for sucky groups that fell apart at the end.

Then I took a 3 month sabbatical from the game, came back, found the change and leveled to 16 in about 2 weeks, and then they announced that they're fixing it. This, after the disappointment of capping a monk, is just more than a little aggravating, you know?

[Karters]

u keep saying its been out for 2+ yrs, mod 5 came out around octish of 07 so thats alil over a yr.

yes the minos legen says it grants the toughness feat but look at the robes with mobilty and the bows with percise shot they grant you that feat but wont allow you to take things that need them as pre reqs. so y should the helm be any different. (sry bout spelling errors)

im not going to go looking through countless threads to find it but im pretty sure the devs have said this was indeed a bug. im sure most ppl saw this coming. you took advantage of a bug so you took the risk. besides all anyone would lose from this is 18 hp. if it bothers you that much get a greater false life item and/or shroud hp item

[Lorien_the_First_One]

DPS builds have toughness already, usually 2 or 3 times. Even if they don't, they have the spare feats to get it without having to give up another key feat. Do you actually play the game, or just troll the forum?

Says the troll. A DPS build who takes toughness more than once is foolish. There just isn't enough difference between 600 and 619 hp to justify wasting a feat on a second toughness. And, there is an argument for AC tanks it wasn't worth a first feat with that bug in place. Many DPS builds are just as feat starved as a sorc. The THF or TWF chains alone chew through your feats, plus cobat expertise, crit feats, Intim or UMD focus, etc. Except for pure fighters, all the dps classes are feat starved.

What would I use the tapestries on now? The totemic lavalier?

Minos is still a great helm...but feel free to sent the taps to me or sell them if you don't want them.

Why should a granted feat work differently than a taken feat?

Because that's not how feats from items or ability points from items work with any other item in this game. When 99% work one way and 1% work the other way...the 1% is generally a mistake...

I said "there's not always anything you can do to a capped character to change that." It's great that your build could be tweaked; mine was min/max'd from the beginning, which is always a risky move because it can go awry (and it is hard to tweak), but in this case it worked out until the rules changed.

You did min (almost) the CON/HP... congrats...