Increase S&B DPS a bit?

[Spartus]

The most common complaint I see about S&B is that the benefits of the style (increased AC & blocking DR) are not significant enough to outweigh the disadvantage of the style's decreased DPS. Currently, TWF is better at what is supposed to be S&B's strongest point (good AC), while simultaneously maintaining superior DPS. The vast majority of the suggestions for fixing this seem to concentrate on increasing the defensive benefits of S&B. I'd like to take a look at the other side of the problem. I believe that the DPS of S&B could be increased, although I DO NOT think that it should equal TWF or THF.

So here's my suggestion; make shield bashing a stance. When activated, an equipped light or heavy shield is treated as an off-hand weapon (light shield counts as a light martial weapon, heavy shield counts as a one-handed martial weapon), and the shield does not contribute to the character's AC. Two-weapon fighting feats (or lack thereof) act exactly the same as with other off-hand weapons for purposes of attack penalties, number of attacks, etc. Take the Improved Shield Bash feat, and the shield's AC bonus continues to be applied when the stance is on.

I would suggest that the shield bash stance be placed on a different channel than defensive fighting and power attack, so that a character can shield bash and fight defensively (or power attack) simultaneously. This has already been done with monk stances, and Eladrin has commented in a PrE thread that other stances will be treated this way, so it's possible.

Because shields get far fewer attack-oriented bonuses placed on them (so far), a character utilizing a shield bashing stance would still be lower DPS than another character using TWF with two actual weapons. However, using a shield bashing stance would increase DPS above current S&B.

This suggestion by itself would be insufficient to fix the currently perceived S&B problem. It would need to be combined with suggestions in other threads for increasing the defensive capabilities of S&B. But I believe that this would be a step toward fixing S&B. Also, I haven't finished thinking through all of the details for implementing this. I'm hoping what I have presented can be a starting point for discussion, and those more knowledgeable than I can help iron out some of the issues. For example:

• What should happen with the current blocking mechanic? I think keep it, since it is not specific to having a shield equipped anyway. Equipping a shield just makes blocking more effective.
• What about tower shields? Allow bashing with them, but with a greater attack penalty? Disallow bashing with a tower shield but increase their defensive benefits even more?

I'm sure there are other potential issues concerning interactions with other game mechanics that I haven't thought of. If you think of one; does it constitute a problem that completely breaks this idea, or could this idea be modified to still be able to work?

[Zuldar]

The ironic thing about s&b is that it rarely can match the ac of twf, rendering one of it's functions useless.

Perhaps one option would be to consider adding some of the shields dr as a passive form. In particular, combat expertise and defensive fighting could add some passive dr based on which one is used. Defensive fighting could add one half of the shields dr (rounded down) and combat expertise could add the entire shields dr. Furthermore the shield mastery feats could partly apply passively as well. Perhaps one more point per feat.

So fighter with a +5 tower shield would gain 4 passive dr with defensive fighting, and 9 with combat expertise. If the fighter had both shield mastery feats it would add 2 more passive dr for a possible total of 11.

Eleven may not seem like a lot, but would go a long way towards insuring the survival of the wielder.

[ace_mason]

The most common complaint I see about S&B is that the benefits of the style (increased AC & blocking DR) are not significant enough to outweigh the disadvantage of the style's decreased DPS. Currently, TWF is better at what is supposed to be S&B's strongest point (good AC), while simultaneously maintaining superior DPS. The vast majority of the suggestions for fixing this seem to concentrate on increasing the defensive benefits of S&B. I'd like to take a look at the other side of the problem. I believe that the DPS of S&B could be increased, although I DO NOT think that it should equal TWF or THF.

So here's my suggestion; make shield bashing a stance. When activated, an equipped light or heavy shield is treated as an off-hand weapon (light shield counts as a light martial weapon, heavy shield counts as a one-handed martial weapon), and the shield does not contribute to the character's AC. Two-weapon fighting feats (or lack thereof) act exactly the same as with other off-hand weapons for purposes of attack penalties, number of attacks, etc. Take the Improved Shield Bash feat, and the shield's AC bonus continues to be applied when the stance is on.

I would suggest that the shield bash stance be placed on a different channel than defensive fighting and power attack, so that a character can shield bash and fight defensively (or power attack) simultaneously. This has already been done with monk stances, and Eladrin has commented in a PrE thread that other stances will be treated this way, so it's possible.

Because shields get far fewer attack-oriented bonuses placed on them (so far), a character utilizing a shield bashing stance would still be lower DPS than another character using TWF with two actual weapons. However, using a shield bashing stance would increase DPS above current S&B.

This suggestion by itself would be insufficient to fix the currently perceived S&B problem. It would need to be combined with suggestions in other threads for increasing the defensive capabilities of S&B. But I believe that this would be a step toward fixing S&B. Also, I haven't finished thinking through all of the details for implementing this. I'm hoping what I have presented can be a starting point for discussion, and those more knowledgeable than I can help iron out some of the issues. For example:

• What should happen with the current blocking mechanic? I think keep it, since it is not specific to having a shield equipped anyway. Equipping a shield just makes blocking more effective.
• What about tower shields? Allow bashing with them, but with a greater attack penalty? Disallow bashing with a tower shield but increase their defensive benefits even more?

I'm sure there are other potential issues concerning interactions with other game mechanics that I haven't thought of. If you think of one; does it constitute a problem that completely breaks this idea, or could this idea be modified to still be able to work?

Make clerics be able to have improved crit rage too.