Dungeon Suggestion

[Khorban]

Got this idea from a previous post....

Love the fact that they are 'instanced' - How about considering making them Random as well? Would help keep everyone on their toes at the harder levels and keep the content Fresh for everyone.

Same Dungeon Layout - Traps, Bosses, Treasure etc - all randomly placed upon entry.

...just a thought...

Thanks!

[rezo]

I like it, make traps random.

[sephiroth1084]

They've been experimenting with this a little bit lately:

-Shroud Part II bosses are 4 selected from a list of 10.
-Runes on the way to The Hound are placed randomly.
-Different monsters spawn in some areas (ran into something like 20 renders and ice flensers on this latest run, and 0 the time before that); sometimes you get rusties in Rainbow, sometimes not.
-Lever location in Prey on the Hunters is different each time in the quest.
-Maze layout for Prey can vary each time through.
-Named monsters appearing in quests and explorer areas is fairly random.

I say they continue with this trend, adding in traps that are not always in the same location (to keep rogues and parties on their toes), big fights or difficult monsters appearing at different places in an adventure (Spawn of Whisperdoom, but more so). I'd especially like some of the randomness to be of greater variance: instead of either/or possibilities, how about one of x number (x >2) possibilities. I like the Shroud part II, but the differences between the trog, kobold and orc are pretty slim.

[Draccus]

Some of the newer quests are fairly randomized.

Monastery of the Scorpion, for example, has random traps and random lever locations. The random traps are a great addition because they do a good job of slowing the party down and making rogues a bit more useful than the standard dungeon where everyone knows the trap locations, how to avoid them, and how much damage they do.

I also like the random locations for the levers that drop the force fields. This forces the party to explore more of the dungeon even if they've done the quest hundreds of times.

[Khorban]

Thats great! Thanks for the update - btw - I thought about it - Even the Dungeon layout should be random - Same quest, different look every time -

The test of one's Character

Thanks all!

[Fenrisulven6]

I love the idea. Makes it much more challenging than "okay, boss is always behind this door, so shrine and then mass buff, haste pls, the FW and BB".

*open door* to empty room....

Allows us to savour the game itself instead of simply beating the mechanics.

[ahpook]

Thats great! Thanks for the update - btw - I thought about it - Even the Dungeon layout should be random - Same quest, different look every time -

The test of one's Character

Thanks all!

Fully random layout would likely be a nightmare with the way quests are hand crafted. However a basic layout with some random walls/secret doors to change the pathing might be useful to change things up (like the maze in Von2 or the maze in Prey). Throw in some random monster types (like in rainbow) and you should keep thing interesting.

So they are doing all the right things now they just need to use their tools through out the quests. In Rainbow you might get ele's or rusties in some places but it will always be gnolls in the back. In Monastery the switches might be different at the top but the blower puzzle is always the same. We are getting there, the devs just need to keep taking it farther.

[Vuedoo]

I posted similiar to this a bit back and wanted to add a quote that was a reply in my post.

Originally Posted by The Rocking Dead
Ah, random traps again. Okay, so let me sum it up a bit. Yes we can do random traps. There are many post-launch quests that incorporate them. We're likely not going to go back to old quests and add them in because of the development time it would take away from new content.

We can do different random traps in one spot, but usually don't because many traps rely on a particular room or hallway setup which doesn't fit with many different trap configurations. Besides, I don't feel that a fire trap will surprise you any more than an acid trap, the second or third time you run the quest. Aside from that, if I randomized every trap in 4 different ways, it would take me 4 times as long, and you would get less content.

I prefer to place traps in many different places. If I do that, it almost guarantees that the first few runs will be fresh and new, since you won't be able to hit all the traps and learn their locations in one run. There's nothing I can do for you if you're running a quest with people who have run it a couple dozen times and happen to remember where traps can be. My goal is to at least carry you through your Normal, Hard, and Elite runs - and hopefully beyond.

Full and complete randomization is not going to happen to the degree and scope some of you wish. We need to build and script every trap. There's no procedural method for randomizing traps because our game relies so heavily on custom crafted content. We place traps with purpose. Sometimes it's to encourage a different path. Often, we place traps in areas we feel deserve more challenge and we want that challenge to exist all the time. I suppose fully random traps would be more likely if the game was 2-D, top down, and tile-based. Many other problems arise if everything were that random. You won't want to enter the dungeon only to find a fire jet blasting you in the face and killing you the moment you load in. I think we can all agree that would be frustrating and unnecessary.

That being said, I'm still committed to building random traps and killing your characters in fun and creative ways!


With all that being Said!!............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................................

I've Been Thinking ( Take the Batteries otta the smoke Alarm)
here's a possibility:
Say You Start Developing a dungeon, Build a base Dungeon with Allot of Dead ends Than make numerous Smaller Dungeons that can randomly attach to these dead ends to expand the quest. never nowing how the dice may roll to form the map.
(A development nightmare I'm Sure) but The quest Map could be Different every time you enter. Here's a Bomb.... Make the dungeons strictly xp areas, assign xp to each trap found..disabled , and to each Monster Killed as pnp rules work at least the way I have always played.

Random Trap Idea:
Ok Make like a dozen or so 90 degree corners, certain Strait Hall Sections, T's etc. that can interchange randomly when the dungeon is rolled. Add nurmous Traps That can Apply to these sections Randomly if a trap happens to be randomly rolled for that section.

Random Monsters:
Have Spots Set in these sections as Spawn Points, a random roll at quest start to see which spawns happen, a roll for mob type or a mix of mobs,and a roll for how many.
and Make the Quest available to all Lvls, Controlling the mobs difficulty by not letting there Hit Dice be more than 3 lvl's higher than the highest party member in the group,so the quest is not impossible for lwr lvl toons. Also by assigning xp amounts to each mob it could ballance (say a couple lvl 16's run into 8 lwr. lvl. kobolds the minimal xp would match the difficulty) Turbine would have to make a lvl requirement the party has to be apart to avoid high lvl toons pwr lvling lower lvl toons

Could randomize difficulty,change chances on a mob or trap being there by difficulty

Randomize quest objectives, Like Search Out the infamous baddy to be assasinated, Find the Secret to why the elvin princess is frozen in Ice, Etc. Etc.

That all being said this would probally take the efforts of making dozens of other quests for new content. If it could even be done with the DDO game engine, its Another Decision turbine would have to Weigh.

Wow can you Imagine the Problems this would cause, and the obsticles to be overcome.
The Only reasonable way I can see for them to even Approach it would be to get a basic dungeon made. that would take months if not years, it would have to be a Single instance that randomizes for all Lvl's to play to get everyones interest. It would be very basic at first with updates Via Future Mods, it would take years before it even started taking shape and probally another team of developers to boot.

Hope that makes some sense the thoughts flow allot quicker than the fingers can type.

[shores11]

Got this idea from a previous post....

Love the fact that they are 'instanced' - How about considering making them Random as well? Would help keep everyone on their toes at the harder levels and keep the content Fresh for everyone.

Same Dungeon Layout - Traps, Bosses, Treasure etc - all randomly placed upon entry.

...just a thought...

Thanks!

I like it a lot. Treasure is fairly randomized already for non-named loot so we are good there already. I do believe that named loot should always come from the same dungeon but continue to make it spawn based on a percentage chance of the dice roll.

Traps and monster locations I do believe should be random throughout the dungeon this would definately keep us on our toes. I am not sure about bosses though in some dungeons it could be done for sure and is already being done in Whisperdoom's dungeon. It is scary (but fun) how your rolling through that dungeon and all of a sudden she pops up unexpectantly.

One thing I would like to see changed that I have never understood why they do this. Concerning the raids Demon Queen (w/DQ its in the pre-raid quest) and Shroud why could they not have had us fought some other monster before we fight the mighty boss. In DQ's case in the pre-raid we could fight a leutenant of hers or something. In the Shroud's case we already fight the Pit Fiends leutenants but we could have fought his general in Shroud part 4. It is kind of redundant to fight the exact same boss 2 times and in Demon Queens case we fight her 3 times.

[Khorban]

I posted similiar to this a bit back and wanted to add a quote that was a reply in my post.

Originally Posted by The Rocking Dead
Ah, random traps again. Okay, so let me sum it up a bit. Yes we can do random traps. There are many post-launch quests that incorporate them. We're likely not going to go back to old quests and add them in because of the development time it would take away from new content.

We can do different random traps in one spot, but usually don't because many traps rely on a particular room or hallway setup which doesn't fit with many different trap configurations. Besides, I don't feel that a fire trap will surprise you any more than an acid trap, the second or third time you run the quest. Aside from that, if I randomized every trap in 4 different ways, it would take me 4 times as long, and you would get less content.

I prefer to place traps in many different places. If I do that, it almost guarantees that the first few runs will be fresh and new, since you won't be able to hit all the traps and learn their locations in one run. There's nothing I can do for you if you're running a quest with people who have run it a couple dozen times and happen to remember where traps can be. My goal is to at least carry you through your Normal, Hard, and Elite runs - and hopefully beyond.

Full and complete randomization is not going to happen to the degree and scope some of you wish. We need to build and script every trap. There's no procedural method for randomizing traps because our game relies so heavily on custom crafted content. We place traps with purpose. Sometimes it's to encourage a different path. Often, we place traps in areas we feel deserve more challenge and we want that challenge to exist all the time. I suppose fully random traps would be more likely if the game was 2-D, top down, and tile-based. Many other problems arise if everything were that random. You won't want to enter the dungeon only to find a fire jet blasting you in the face and killing you the moment you load in. I think we can all agree that would be frustrating and unnecessary.

That being said, I'm still committed to building random traps and killing your characters in fun and creative ways!


With all that being Said!!............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................................

I've Been Thinking ( Take the Batteries otta the smoke Alarm)
here's a possibility:
Say You Start Developing a dungeon, Build a base Dungeon with Allot of Dead ends Than make numerous Smaller Dungeons that can randomly attach to these dead ends to expand the quest. never nowing how the dice may roll to form the map.
(A development nightmare I'm Sure) but The quest Map could be Different every time you enter. Here's a Bomb.... Make the dungeons strictly xp areas, assign xp to each trap found..disabled , and to each Monster Killed as pnp rules work at least the way I have always played.

Random Trap Idea:
Ok Make like a dozen or so 90 degree corners, certain Strait Hall Sections, T's etc. that can interchange randomly when the dungeon is rolled. Add nurmous Traps That can Apply to these sections Randomly if a trap happens to be randomly rolled for that section.

Random Monsters:
Have Spots Set in these sections as Spawn Points, a random roll at quest start to see which spawns happen, a roll for mob type or a mix of mobs,and a roll for how many.
and Make the Quest available to all Lvls, Controlling the mobs difficulty by not letting there Hit Dice be more than 3 lvl's higher than the highest party member in the group,so the quest is not impossible for lwr lvl toons. Also by assigning xp amounts to each mob it could ballance (say a couple lvl 16's run into 8 lwr. lvl. kobolds the minimal xp would match the difficulty) Turbine would have to make a lvl requirement the party has to be apart to avoid high lvl toons pwr lvling lower lvl toons

Could randomize difficulty,change chances on a mob or trap being there by difficulty

Randomize quest objectives, Like Search Out the infamous baddy to be assasinated, Find the Secret to why the elvin princess is frozen in Ice, Etc. Etc.

That all being said this would probally take the efforts of making dozens of other quests for new content. If it could even be done with the DDO game engine, its Another Decision turbine would have to Weigh.

Wow can you Imagine the Problems this would cause, and the obsticles to be overcome.
The Only reasonable way I can see for them to even Approach it would be to get a basic dungeon made. that would take months if not years, it would have to be a Single instance that randomizes for all Lvl's to play to get everyones interest. It would be very basic at first with updates Via Future Mods, it would take years before it even started taking shape and probally another team of developers to boot.

Hope that makes some sense the thoughts flow allot quicker than the fingers can type.

Well, I was actually thinking on a smaller scale than what you've proposed. The premise behind it was to somewhat emulate a DM running a PnP campaign. But I guess our points are similar.

Trust me, I know this could essentially become a nightmare (Dev-wise / Scripter-wise). I used to work for a Major US Game Company - this isn't something that you fix overnight - but never hurts to have contingency and future goals.

The DM guide has a section for Random Encounter / Treasure, etc.

The spawn points would be the same as the random encounter for the DM - you either get em or you dont. I'm not a scripter so I don't know how difficult that would be to pull off.

All I was trying to say is as the new guy - I can see where 2/3 year Veterans would be starved for content and/or randomization. I thought randomizing would be quicker than creating.

Didn't mean to ruffle feathers - our group ran from imagination - I only remember using one canned adventure. That could very well be my problem

Thanks!

[Vuedoo]

Well, I was actually thinking on a smaller scale than what you've proposed. The premise behind it was to somewhat emulate a DM running a PnP campaign. But I guess our points are similar.

Trust me, I know this could essentially become a nightmare (Dev-wise / Scripter-wise). I used to work for a Major US Game Company - this isn't something that you fix overnight - but never hurts to have contingency and future goals.

The DM guide has a section for Random Encounter / Treasure, etc.

The spawn points would be the same as the random encounter for the DM - you either get em or you dont. I'm not a scripter so I don't know how difficult that would be to pull off.

All I was trying to say is as the new guy - I can see where 2/3 year Veterans would be starved for content and/or randomization. I thought randomizing would be quicker than creating.

Didn't mean to ruffle feathers - our group ran from imagination - I only remember using one canned adventure. That could very well be my problem

Thanks!

I Totally Agree With you, and think it would be great even on a smaller scale. But I also think it should be planned so all lvl toons can play it and plan that it can be added to via new mods to expand it to some day be huge and probally the most popular hangout for xp and looting for all. It would become somewhat predictable, but it would always keep a party on there toes and make things allot more exciting.

Only Wishful Thinking and I have really no clue if and to what extent it would even be possible for the turbine team.

[Aganazer]

The only way I can think of to reasonably randomize traps is for the devs to create the dungeon initially with traps on everything. Load the dungeon full of traps, then randomly turn the majority of them off. The same process would apply to secrets.

No doubt that it would make the dev effort much greater when creating content, but that is what it would take to make content more repeatable and to address DDO's most significant weakness. They could start by applying it to only the significant quests starting with The Butcher's Path and the Kobold prison where you free Arlos (and gather your party safely in this hallway!).

[Khorban]

Absolutely on both replies.

Well, time to stop beating this Horse - maybe Turbine will consider this (small scale for milestone/alpha - then enlarge as it gets closer to Final) - maybe.

Honestly, I'd rather run Dungeon Quests than the Hack n Slash of the normal world.

Catchyas In-Game!

[Kromize]

wiz king. (;