Please make shield DR passive

[Amabel]

ie - you get the benefit of DR even when not actively blocking

We need a reason to carry shields. The pyjama party must end now.

[Aranticus]

ie - you get the benefit of DR even when not actively blocking

We need a reason to carry shields. The pyjama party must end now.

/signed x 29835749016

[Mindspat]

I agree. There should also be a passive DR to different armor.

Shields should provide DR to party members behind them too.

[Roman]

Agree. Even if it's only 1/3 of blocking DR it would be a huge boost to S&B

[Lehrman]

Lol, if shield dr becomes passive, they will just ramp up the damage on mobs to compensate--the same way they ramped up the hitroll to compensate for the pajama toons.

[Omega2K]

I disagree with the OP. Shield Damage Reduction works fine as is - when you are actively blocking. However, if this must be a consideration, I recommend Passive Shield Damage Reduction as a Feat with the prerequisites of Improved Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash. Not everyone should be granted this power for free, they must make a proper investment.

[Aesop]

The essential point of Shield Fighting is to have more defensive fighting tactics. The problem here is that in the current system a person without a shield or heavier armor (also used for protective purposes) can have a better defense than one who is decked out in what amounts to riot gear. The light fighter has better mobility and can "avoid" more damage than his heavy armor wearing friend. Turbine had to have seen this as a potential issue which would be my guess as to why they implemented Blocking DR.

Blocking DR is just what it says it is. It is the person blocking the incoming strike and absorbing the damage. As the person gets better in combat and better equipment the amount of damage they can absorb increases. The problem is that while Blocking an attack the defender has completely lost his damage output allowing the aggresser more time to attack. Additionally if the light fighter needs to for some reason solely defend he can simply pick up a shield and nearly match the defensive heavily armored characters defensive edge.

As I look at it a way that would "help" to partially alleviate the problem is rooted in improving the Blocking system, primarily for those who use Shields actively in combat, and improving the effectiveness of heavier types of armor.


1. Have Armor Add to Blocking DR. Essentially Blocking DR is absorbing a taken hit. SO in this case some of the shock of that hit is absorbed by the heavier armor that the person wears.
cloth=0
light=1
medium=3
heavy=5

This is BLOCKING DR and would not interfere with Adamantine versions of Armor. It would essentially stack.

Additionally for Warforged have their Body types add to Blocking DR as well. Though have it:
Composite=1
Mithril=3
Adamantine=5

2. Now combat is always moving always fast paced. Expecting a character to actively block between swings with perfect timing over an imperfect etwork is not logical or likely... So add a percent Chance to AUTOMATICALLY apply Shield Blocking to Shields.
bucklers=0%
light Shields= 5%
heavy Shields=10%
Tower Shield= 20%
Enhancement Bonus to a Shield = +1% per +1 (so a +5 Buckler would have a 5% chance to Automatically apply the benefits of Shield Blocking)

3. The Feats Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery should be changed to

Shield Mastery= +2% Block Chance, +2 Blocking DR, +1 Shield AC
Improved Shield Mastery= +3% Blocking Chance & +3 Blocking DR

Barring any further Enhancement of these numbers this gives a Tower Shield user with a +5 Tower Shield and both Shield Master Feats a 30% Chance to passively Shield Block an incoming attack


Think of it this way. If I wind up and hit you with a bat while you are wearing jeans and a t-shirt... its going to hurt or break something. If I do the same while you are wearing a set of Full Plate Armor ... its going to hurt, but probably a bit less. Now if I wind up and hit the shield you have braced yourself behind it will probably rattle you a bit and possibly even hurt ... but not nearly as much as if you were in those Jeans and T-shirt. If you havea shield and armor on and I suddenly swing towards the center of your body ... likely you will attempt to block my attack with the big hunk of metal or wood you are holding so as to abosrb the damage and not get hurt... that's the basic idea here.



This doesn't address the issue that of S&B damage output... with the coming addition of the Tempest II and III and Superior TWF granting the TWF more than double the attacks per sequence than the S&B fighter some sort of damage improvement should be implemented.

My suggestion for this is passive Shield Bashing Attacks built into the current animation, like the Hook attacks of GTWF or the Glancing Blows of the THF line. Even two per animation sequence with the Improved Shield Bash Feat adding another would help in a small way. Adding more offensively minded SHields and Shield Enhancements would be another step towards a more balanced combat system.



add: Straight passive always on DR would be overpowered and not resolve the issues that you are trying. It would only encourage a differenct FotM while not promoting diverse character builds

Aesop

[JobeTheMan]

Rits and crafting for shields and armor that enhace DR, with level requirements for item with X rit on it, and ability to improve upon that rit at later levels.

If you concentrate on shields and Heavy armor for this idea, it'll bring back the usefullness of S&B. Barbs would still have THIER DR, WF would still have THIER DR, and WF barbs would have both. The two together, if made equal to a S&B with his shield and heavy armor, would keep the usefullness of both S&B and WF barbs... Then you have just barbs, with 1/2 that DR, and evasion tanks with hvy shields, who also would have 1/2 that DR. It seems it would all balance out!

Love the DR for S&B concept. Would save my Pally.

[Pyromaniac]

That would mean almost everyone would have to go S&B for DR purposes. Tremendously overpowered, not signed.

[honkuimushi]

There are two major issues I see with regards to AC and a few minor issues. I think passive DR is the best way to resolve issues with sword and board but that alone will not be sufficient.

The first and biggest issue is that monsters do not get iterative attacks. This leads to AC being a binary issue. You either have an AC build that will be missed a large percentage of the time or you don't and you might as well ignore AC and go for damage. The idea of going for a balanced build with moderate AC with moderate DPS is, with the possible exception of 1 build, pretty much a non-starter right now. The current number of HP only makes things tougher for people trying for AC. No matter what happens, I think this has to be changed to make AC matter again. The AI will not purposely cheat the attack change so I don't reaaly see a problem with them using a PnP attack progression. That way a Barbarian in a breastplate would get hit less often than one in a robe.

The second big issue is that stats are much easier to increase in DDO than in PnP. You can get up to 3 points from your class and another 2 points for your race. Add in more readily available stat boosting items and tomes and you can boost stats to extremely high levels. Yet the max dex for armor has not been increased and the enhancements to raise it are expensive and limited to 1 race and 1 class. That means that those who go the finesse route can quickly surpass their armored AC with robes. This was exacerbated with the addition of Monks because they had 2 stats that added to AC without any cap if they didn't wear armor. While the Human Paladin doesn't get any benefit from raising his dex past 12.

I don't believe that the solution for that is to nerf monks or monk splashes. Instead, I thimk that we should take a page from the recent toughness changes. Make the low level armor mastery enhancements universal and cheaper. Allow Fighters and Dwarves to get further benefits. I've seen too many melee builds with an 8 dex. Lets see if we can make it worthwhile to start with 12 dex or better.

Other problems are the rarity of items necessarry for AC build making it so that casual players really can't make an AC build and the pereneal dodge bonus issue.

But finally we get to shields. The only real reason to wear a shield is to increase your defence. By using a second weapon or a 2 hander , you can almost double your DPS. And right now, very few builds gain enough from the extra AC points to outweigh the loss of DPS. Passive DR would give a benefit everytime you got hit for those choosing to wear a shield, even for someone who hasn't been farming the Titan for the ring or Xorian for the bracers. That might be enough to make it worth while. Now, low level sword and board is still pretty strong. Thats why I thing the ideao of a percentage of Blocking DR is a good way to go since it already increases with BAB.

Even with Passive DR, I don't expect everyone to switch to sword and board. I still see 2-handers and dual weilding as being very popular and very viable. If sword and board is seen in the same light I would be very happy. Yes, these changes may lead to a flood of Dwaven Defender/ Barbarians with Tower shields. But I don't see them being dominant. And I for one would like to see a few more viable builds.

[VirieSquichie]

If there was an enhancement (or progressive line) that gave 1 (passive, stacking) DR per class of armor (1 light, 2 medium, 3 heavy) and another that did the same for shields, then people willing to spend precious action points to boost their S&B's effectiveness a bit could do so. Would an additional +5 DR for someone with heavy armor and a tower shield be unbalancing? I don't believe so, but I'm sure some of you would disagree. (whilst you're wearing pajamas, no doubt)

I don't think S&B's should get their DPS upgraded, at least not by much, as that's the tradeoff they're supposed to have for all the extra defense they're supposed to be getting. The way things are, they don't get that defensive benefit, and that's what's really broken.

[muffinlad]

I think the OP has the germ of a very good idea.

Allowing Passive DR, included in existing feats (Improved Shield Bash, etc.) could be the way to go.

To me, D+D's AC system has never ever made sense to me (though it has not stopped me from playing for 30+ years), and the additional damage reduction would make sense.

muffinshielder.

[krud]

2. Now combat is always moving always fast paced. Expecting a character to actively block between swings with perfect timing over an imperfect etwork is not logical or likely... So add a percent Chance to AUTOMATICALLY apply Shield Blocking to Shields.
bucklers=0%
light Shields= 5%
heavy Shields=10%
Tower Shield= 20%
Enhancement Bonus to a Shield = +1% per +1 (so a +5 Buckler would have a 5% chance to Automatically apply the benefits of Shield Blocking)

3. The Feats Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery should be changed to

Shield Mastery= +2% Block Chance, +2 Blocking DR, +1 Shield AC
Improved Shield Mastery= +3% Blocking Chance & +3 Blocking DR

Barring any further Enhancement of these numbers this gives a Tower Shield user with a +5 Tower Shield and both Shield Master Feats a 30% Chance to passively Shield Block an incoming attack

i like this idea. Not constant DR, and also contains the ability to improve it with feats and enhancements if you like.

Think of it this way. If I wind up and hit you with a bat while you are wearing jeans and a t-shirt... its going to hurt or break something. If I do the same while you are wearing a set of Full Plate Armor ... its going to hurt, but probably a bit less. Now if I wind up and hit the shield you have braced yourself behind it will probably rattle you a bit and possibly even hurt ... but not nearly as much as if you were in those Jeans and T-shirt. If you havea shield and armor on and I suddenly swing towards the center of your body ... likely you will attempt to block my attack with the big hunk of metal or wood you are holding so as to abosrb the damage and not get hurt... that's the basic idea here.

i like the shiled block idea, but this logic I never agreed with. From my martial arts training it is apparent that a more dextrous person would be able to avoid that bat much easier, or move in on the hands of the wielder, where the blow is not as severe.

My sensei relayed a saying he had heard that seems appropriate:

"A karate expert is walking along a mountain path when a boulder tumbles down from above. He raises his fist and hits the rock, splintering it into a bunch of little pieces that fall harmlessly around him. An Aikido master is walking up the same path when another boulder comes tumbling down from above. He steps to the side and watches the boulder tumble right by him."

[Thelmallen]

Would an additional +5 DR for someone with heavy armor and a tower shield be unbalancing? I don't believe so, but I'm sure some of you would disagree.

I only have on pyjama wearer and she can only hit a mid-forties AC so I don't think I qualify as part of the pyjama party. However, at low levels, a DR/5 would be unbalancing as you wouldn't take much damage at all unless from a crit (kobolds don't hit very hard). However, I do really like the idea of passive DR but I think it has to be a percentage of damage taken rather than a set amount.

I know that this is a video game based on a fantasy game but if we draw on 'real world' medeival analogies, there was a reason that the wealthy paid for heavy armor and that was because it worked better. It did not, however, prevent you from getting hit more; it prevented the hits from doing as much damage. Anybody who's been in the SCA knows what I mean!

I've played PnP for 25 years and the AC system has never really made sense to me as it hasn't to many of the people posting in these forums. The only thing that makes sense is passive DR. Adding a percentage damage reduction I don't feel would be game imbalancing and would add some incentive to run sword and board over TWF and also improve the 'feel' of the combat.

My 2gp (2cp before plat formers inflated the economy).

[VirieSquichie]

A DR of 5 does help a lot vs. the kobolds in the harbor. Heck, a DR of 3 helps a lot, and you get that from adamantine full plate right now. And +1 adamantine full plate is, if I recall correctly, a level 2 item.

But that's kind of the point. If you take enough effort, you should be able to block the weak attacks of weak creatures quite a bit, which is why few people really worry much about kobolds in the first place. It's why we call it "tanking"...

Go ahead and see how far DR 5/- gets you vs. an ogre. There are a few in the Waterworks and one in Ringleader who would be happy to school you as much as you can stand to be schooled. (about 2-3 hits for the best of level appropriate tanks, DR or no DR)

The kobold shamans will do a number on people with DR also. It's not a be-all and end-all.

[Aesop]

i like the shiled block idea, but this logic I never agreed with. From my martial arts training it is apparent that a more dextrous person would be able to avoid that bat much easier, or move in on the hands of the wielder, where the blow is not as severe.

My sensei relayed a saying he had heard that seems appropriate:

"A karate expert is walking along a mountain path when a boulder tumbles down from above. He raises his fist and hits the rock, splintering it into a bunch of little pieces that fall harmlessly around him. An Aikido master is walking up the same path when another boulder comes tumbling down from above. He steps to the side and watches the boulder tumble right by him."

Yes but the point was for shots that actually connect with you. Yes the lighter armored guy may evade more attacks than the Heavy Armored guy but when the attacks actually land they are more easily "Blocked" by the guy wearing the heavier armor and a big piece of wood between the incoming attack and the squishie bits.

THe kung fu guy may still catch the blow... but maybe that should be a higher level Monk thing.

Anyway its a simplified example is all

Aesop

[Thelmallen]

I totally agree with your point regarding getting hit by an ogre, which is why I think that a percentage damage reduction is a better solution (if there is a better solution). 20% DR on a 5 HP attack for a character with 50 hp is 1 HP reduced (2% total hp). However, 20% DR on a 80hp Orthon attack for a character with 400 hp is 16hp reduced (4% total HP). I don't think any of these numbers is imbalancing.

In regards to the evading monk theory, I think that is a situation of a local martial combat system evolving; the combatants didn't need armor as a lot of combat was mainly hand-to-hand. Perhaps the economy and natural resources of the region could not support metal weapons and armor and thus a hand-to-hand combat system was the mainstay. A contemporary martial system in Japan certainly did have armor integrated into it as there were steel/iron weapons available, forcing the development of an armor technology that would protect the combatants. If evading blows were a viable method of defence against metal weapons, thrifty warlords would not have spent the $$ on developing the technology and building the armor.

Anyway, I'm not an expert on medeival weapons and armor so don't blast me for a mistake here; I'm just stating what seems to be logical to me.

-Thel

A DR of 5 does help a lot vs. the kobolds in the harbor. Heck, a DR of 3 helps a lot, and you get that from adamantine full plate right now. And +1 adamantine full plate is, if I recall correctly, a level 2 item.

But that's kind of the point. If you take enough effort, you should be able to block the weak attacks of weak creatures quite a bit, which is why few people really worry much about kobolds in the first place. It's why we call it "tanking"...

Go ahead and see how far DR 5/- gets you vs. an ogre. There are a few in the Waterworks and one in Ringleader who would be happy to school you as much as you can stand to be schooled. (about 2-3 hits for the best of level appropriate tanks, DR or no DR)

The kobold shamans will do a number on people with DR also. It's not a be-all and end-all.

[jakeelala]

That would mean almost everyone would have to go S&B for DR purposes. Tremendously overpowered, not signed.

UM

why shouldnt people be able to do less damage but take less damage by equipping a shield when it seems appropriate? Is that the point of a shield?