Balance and D&D

[Jacoby]

I want to touch on this whole balance debate that some seem to hang on in these forums.

1) D&D was never meant to be balanced! Mages dominate the world of D&D and all characters play a role in a party adventure. It is not and has never been a balanced game, plain and simple...

2) Tolkien was the original, D&D made it a game add all others (Warhammer, WoW, etc) are all benefactors. DDO does not need to mimic them to be succesful.

3) Nerfing weapons, rules, NPC's and gameplay will only lead to this games demise because you will be re-inventing the game set that so many know intimately and love just the way it is.

With all that said I like DDO. There are those that want to see it made more like WoW but I say no! There are those that say it needs balance, I again say no! There are those that say it's too easy, I say you've been smoking crack!

The game does need some tweeking, guild stuff, content, PvP or GvG oriented gameplay in my "opinion" but all is good. It does not need balance!

All in all this is a demanding game platform and I beleive the Dev's have done well. There is a huge amount that can be done as this game has unlimited flexibility.

[Angelus_dead]

1) D&D was never meant to be balanced!

Absolutely, completely, and 100% wrong.

D&D was meant to be balanced. If you don't believe me, go read PHB and DMG and then come back. Pay particular attention to concepts like CR, CL, and EL.

It is not and has never been a balanced game, plain and simple...

Do not confuse the words "meant" and "is". The English language uses different words for a reason. The fact that a person failed at a difficult goal doesn't mean he never actually wanted to succeed.

2) Tolkien was the original, D&D made it a game add all others (Warhammer, WoW, etc) are all benefactors. DDO does not need to mimic them to be succesful.

That is true, but weak. Conversely, just because WOW or Warhammer does something doesn't mean it would be bad in DDO.

3) Nerfing weapons, rules, NPC's and gameplay will only lead to this games demise because you will be re-inventing the game set that so many know intimately and love just the way it is.

Wrong. The idea that anything is perfect like it is and needs no improvement is almost always untrue, regardless of the context.

There are those that want to see it made more like WoW but I say no!

Do you have an example of someone who wants it to be like WOW? I've seen occasional examples of people requesting WOW-like features, but they've mostly been silly stuff ("OMG mounts!") that wasn't thought-through.

There are those that say it needs balance, I again say no!

Can you try to defend the idea of an unbalanced game?

There is a huge amount that can be done as this game has unlimited flexibility.

QFE.

[samagee]

/signed!

Balance defeats diversity every time! If people are to weak minded to play according to their play style, then this game isn't for them. I am beginning to think traits people use in game extend to their real world habits as well.

The worst thing Wizards of the Coasts could have done in version 4 of their rule set was to institute balance and mimic online games. Online games have mocked them for decades and they failed to note that trend. True signs of a company not in touch with their user base, or wanted to sell something else with a proven and trusted title.

[samagee]

Absolutely, completely, and 100% wrong.

That is true, but weak. Conversely, just because WOW or Warhammer does something doesn't mean it would be bad in DDO.


QFE.

Actually since WoW is geared toward the newbs to the net, and in most instances online games, I tend to look at anything WoW flavored with apprehension. I don't like WoW period, and I don't want it in my online game. So, if it starts to get WoW flavored I will go elsewhere. Because I can.

[nbhs275]

Actually since WoW is geared toward the newbs to the net, and in most instances online games, I tend to look at anything WoW flavored with apprehension. I don't like WoW period, and I don't want it in my online game. So, if it starts to get WoW flavored I will go elsewhere. Because I can.

Im not seeing how WoW is "geared to the newbs". Sure the basis of the ruleset is simple, but becomes much more of a power gamers type of experience past the first few levels. I love people that insult WoW yet have never played it, and complain when critics and forums do the same to DDO.

[samagee]

Im not seeing how WoW is "geared to the newbs". Sure the basis of the ruleset is simple, but becomes much more of a power gamers type of experience past the first few levels. I love people that insult WoW yet have never played it, and complain when critics and forums do the same to DDO.

I love assumptions. you just wasted yourself there in the debate.
I see powergamers as newbs, because they completely miss the point of the game. Just because you could walk up and kick the **** out of a disabled person, do you do it?

[Raithe]

I want to touch on this whole balance debate that some seem to hang on in these forums.

1) D&D was never meant to be balanced! Mages dominate the world of D&D and all characters play a role in a party adventure. It is not and has never been a balanced game, plain and simple...

D&D was meant to be balanced, but on a group level - not individual level. If D&D was meant to be nothing more than a solo mage walking through a dungeon killing each single mob as it is encountered (i.e., an unbalanced game), it would have never achieved much success. Notice how DDO's structure, however, actually makes soloing with a mage a staple of current gameplay.

2) Tolkien was the original, D&D made it a game add all others (Warhammer, WoW, etc) are all benefactors. DDO does not need to mimic them to be succesful.

For the record, Warhammer is even more unbalanced between classes than D&D (or even DDO) is. They also have fewer roles that can be filled with a particular class. No one is saying to move DDO in that direction - everyone wants more roles, less class overshadowing, more diversity in strategies. The fact that Warhammer (I'm not sure about WoW) has very little potential as a gaming system but appeals to a larger audience than DDO is rooted firmly in the fact that DDO has no objectives for its system, other than grinding for loot so that you can grind for loot better, if you can actually call that an objective.

3) Nerfing weapons, rules, NPC's and gameplay will only lead to this games demise because you will be re-inventing the game set that so many know intimately and love just the way it is.

Actually, just the opposite. The introduction of overpowered weapons, overpowered enhancements, mob inflation, and the like is what will ultimately lead to the game's demise. It's important to remember that DDO still has significantly lower subscriber numbers than at launch. For every person that loves the game "just the way it is," there are 2 or 3 people that don't.

With all that said I like DDO. There are those that want to see it made more like WoW but I say no! There are those that say it needs balance, I again say no! There are those that say it's too easy, I say you've been smoking crack!

DDO needs to be less like WoW, more balanced for a role-based group system, and it is actually far too easy - because the only challenges come in the form of artificial intelligences that walk right into a Wall of Fire (or cloudkill, or bard's fascinate, etc., etc.)

The game does need some tweeking, guild stuff, content, PvP or GvG oriented gameplay in my "opinion"...

Precisely, we finally agree.

[Borror0]

1) D&D was never meant to be balanced!

It was meant to be balance. It is not, but it was intended to be balanced.

there reason as to why it was meant to be balanced is because without balanced, there is much less character customization, and that something desirable.

2) Tolkien was the original, D&D made it a game add all others (Warhammer, WoW, etc) are all benefactors. DDO does not need to mimic them to be succesful.

True, but that's an argument against balance. Heck, that's not even an argument because the justification for balance is not to mimic other game.

Well, unless you are trying to say other games can never have good ideas, but that would be a stupid statement.

3) Nerfing weapons, rules, NPC's and gameplay will only lead to this games demise because you will be re-inventing the game set that so many know intimately and love just the way it is.

Everything is perfect now? No more new feats, enhancements, spells, classes, races, etc?

There is a huge amount that can be done as this game has unlimited flexibility.

QFT

[Angelus_dead]

Balance defeats diversity every time!

That makes no sense: in reality, Balance enables Diversity

Imbalance kills diversity.

[Angelus_dead]

Im not seeing how WoW is "geared to the newbs".

There are lots of WOW features that can be pointed out as newb-oriented... but there are a lot that aren't. WOW is designed to have a pyramidal hierarchy among players, with an elite group doing special quests where some customers never dare set foot.

The degree to which they adhere to that design focus wavers, and recently WOW doesn't have a tough raid in the peak endgame (which might be costing them powergamer subscriptions). For example, WOW raids were originally 40-player, which obviously took serious dedication just to get the group scheduled. Now they've been reduced to 10-25 players.

Here is an illustrative comment from the WOW devs about their newb/uber focus:

While we can all laugh about Karazhan being srs bzns now, at the time a lot of players wiped on the boney horses and never went back. That's a shame because it was a cool instance and a gateway to a lot of additional raid content. Some of the best moments in WoW occur in these raids. You see unique art (and hear unique music!), scripted events and some amazing lore moments. It makes me sad to think of players who will never even step foot in Naxx. But that doesn't mean all of our raid content needs to be at the introductory level. If you're looking for a challenge, I suspect you will find it in Ulduar.

[Timjc86]

2) Tolkien was the original, D&D made it a game add all others (Warhammer, WoW, etc) are all benefactors. DDO does not need to mimic them to be succesful.

...

With all that said I like DDO. There are those that want to see it made more like WoW but I say no!

Do you have an example of someone who wants it to be like WOW? I've seen occasional examples of people requesting WOW-like features, but they've mostly been silly stuff ("OMG mounts!") that wasn't thought-through.

I would LOVE to see DDO mimic WoW in the resources devoted to it, but that's about all I can come up with at the moment... aside from silly features I haven't thought through.

That makes no sense: in reality, Balance enables Diversity

Imbalance kills diversity.

QFT. Balance should be a constant focus for the dev team. Note that that's "balance" not "sameness".

I also don't see what physically assaulting disabled people has to do with the topic. That analogy went completely over my head (admittedly, that's not difficult to do).

[Vorn]

That makes no sense: in reality, Balance enables Diversity

Imbalance kills diversity.

As I look at the huge number of ranger splash monks (maybe splash something else) running around, I'm seeing less and less diversity. Most of them even wear the same uniform.

[frugal_gourmet]

What a coincidence.

I was just thinking:

Gee, it would be great if the game was less balanced so I had fewer legitimate options to customize my character with.

[Milolyen]

/signed!

Balance defeats diversity every time! If people are to weak minded to play according to their play style, then this game isn't for them. I am beginning to think traits people use in game extend to their real world habits as well.

The worst thing Wizards of the Coasts could have done in version 4 of their rule set was to institute balance and mimic online games. Online games have mocked them for decades and they failed to note that trend. True signs of a company not in touch with their user base, or wanted to sell something else with a proven and trusted title.

You ARE joking right? Balance does not mean equal. Balance means xxx does "This" very well but "That" poorly where yyy does "That" really well but "This" poorly. Where "This" and "That" are both viable options. Now if you throw it out of balance by makeing "This" viable but "That" is not viable then how does that increase diversity ... it just means everyone will be doing "This" and no one will be doing "That".

In this game, Lets take a look at TWF and S&B. TWF gets more attacks, more dps and can easily have more ac than S&B. Lets take a look in the game now at player make up. What percentage of new melee chars are going to be TWF and what percentage are going to be S&B? I don't know but my guess would be atleast 5 to 1 if not more. How is that diverse?

Milolyen

[Draccus]

I want to touch on this whole balance debate that some seem to hang on in these forums.

1) D&D was never meant to be balanced! Mages dominate the world of D&D and all characters play a role in a party adventure. It is not and has never been a balanced game, plain and simple...

Like most people, I completely disagree with this statement. D&D is all about balance as is DDO. Yes, it IS meant to be a balanced game.

As far as mages dominating the D&D world, I can think of more exceptions than examples. I've read books where an assassin dominated the world. So should Rogues with the assassin PrE dominate DDO? I've read books where a certain dual-scimitar wielding drow fighter dominated the world so should drow fighters dominate DDO? I've even read a book where a cleric and his monk wife dominated the world. Should that duo dominate DDO?

Tolkien's world was dominated by a commoner halfling, for that matter.

[frugal_gourmet]

Yeah. The constant wave of posters talking about balance as not being important here irks me to no end.

I can understand that balance may not be *the* most important thing. You're never going to achieve perfect balance and sometimes it's ok to let an imbalance slide.

Balance in PNP is clearly less of a big deal too, because the Dungeon Master is inherently a balancing agent.

But.

Come on.

Why would we not want more options to play in the game? Isn't that a massive part of what makes online role-playing games fun?

I'm finding this attitude more and more maddening and ridiculous.

!@#$!@#$A!!!

[Borror0]

You're never going to achieve perfect balance and sometimes it's ok to let an imbalance slide.

And even if it was achievable, it's better to leave some imbalance in. Balance comes to a cost that is sometimes not worth sacrificing.

To say balance is unimportant, though, is crazy.

[Mindspat]

stuff...

A DM's duty is to adjust content on the fly to ensure a fluid gaming experiance. This involves, but is not limited to, changing the rules as seen fit. The DM's Guide, at least the old ones, made it very clear that the rules were nothing but a "guide line".

Turbine is the DM. As with playing PnP if there's a parcticular DM that you don't like you get another one. This means if you don't like the game play experiance and it's not fun that it would be time to "find another DM".

There's many situations where I would have taken Turbines dice and not invited them back as a DM; ie Blanket Immunities suck and are an otherwise unintelligent and spiteful means to punish a player base.

Other then that, I welcome balance in terms of content playing smoothly and there are some situations where Game Play adjustments are absolutely required even if we don't understand it at first...

[gHzSWB]

I want to touch on this whole balance debate that some seem to hang on in these forums.

1) D&D was never meant to be balanced! Mages dominate the world of D&D and all characters play a role in a party adventure. It is not and has never been a balanced game, plain and simple...

2) Tolkien was the original, D&D made it a game add all others (Warhammer, WoW, etc) are all benefactors. DDO does not need to mimic them to be succesful.

3) Nerfing weapons, rules, NPC's and gameplay will only lead to this games demise because you will be re-inventing the game set that so many know intimately and love just the way it is.

With all that said I like DDO. There are those that want to see it made more like WoW but I say no! There are those that say it needs balance, I again say no! There are those that say it's too easy, I say you've been smoking crack!

The game does need some tweeking, guild stuff, content, PvP or GvG oriented gameplay in my "opinion" but all is good. It does not need balance!

All in all this is a demanding game platform and I beleive the Dev's have done well. There is a huge amount that can be done as this game has unlimited flexibility.

Everything you said applies only to PnP - once D&D moved to the MMO space all bets were off. What makes D7D successful as a PnP game does not necessarily tranlate to an MMO. How many times have we seen great novels make bad movies? Different media have different expectations and requirements for success.

[Riorik]

Can you try to defend the idea of an unbalanced game?

What was that game..."Torq". The one where you existed in a multiverse and the players all had a handful of playing cards (special cards) and probabilities where if you didn't like something that occurred, you could choose to re-roll or otherwise change the last outcome.

Interesting idea, just seriously flawed and to me, unbalanced.
Fun? Yeah, I guess it was - in a "you as the player get to do whatever you want and sorta play god" way.

I would argue that balance is irrelevant, sometimes. The fun factor is what's actually important in a commercial application. And, I believe that's already happened multiple times in DDO since the start.

Balance is just for the rules-lawyers.