Balance and D&D

[Jacoby]

I want to touch on this whole balance debate that some seem to hang on in these forums.

1) D&D was never meant to be balanced! Mages dominate the world of D&D and all characters play a role in a party adventure. It is not and has never been a balanced game, plain and simple...

2) Tolkien was the original, D&D made it a game add all others (Warhammer, WoW, etc) are all benefactors. DDO does not need to mimic them to be succesful.

3) Nerfing weapons, rules, NPC's and gameplay will only lead to this games demise because you will be re-inventing the game set that so many know intimately and love just the way it is.

With all that said I like DDO. There are those that want to see it made more like WoW but I say no! There are those that say it needs balance, I again say no! There are those that say it's too easy, I say you've been smoking crack!

The game does need some tweeking, guild stuff, content, PvP or GvG oriented gameplay in my "opinion" but all is good. It does not need balance!

All in all this is a demanding game platform and I beleive the Dev's have done well. There is a huge amount that can be done as this game has unlimited flexibility.

[Angelus_dead]

1) D&D was never meant to be balanced!

Absolutely, completely, and 100% wrong.

D&D was meant to be balanced. If you don't believe me, go read PHB and DMG and then come back. Pay particular attention to concepts like CR, CL, and EL.

It is not and has never been a balanced game, plain and simple...

Do not confuse the words "meant" and "is". The English language uses different words for a reason. The fact that a person failed at a difficult goal doesn't mean he never actually wanted to succeed.

2) Tolkien was the original, D&D made it a game add all others (Warhammer, WoW, etc) are all benefactors. DDO does not need to mimic them to be succesful.

That is true, but weak. Conversely, just because WOW or Warhammer does something doesn't mean it would be bad in DDO.

3) Nerfing weapons, rules, NPC's and gameplay will only lead to this games demise because you will be re-inventing the game set that so many know intimately and love just the way it is.

Wrong. The idea that anything is perfect like it is and needs no improvement is almost always untrue, regardless of the context.

There are those that want to see it made more like WoW but I say no!

Do you have an example of someone who wants it to be like WOW? I've seen occasional examples of people requesting WOW-like features, but they've mostly been silly stuff ("OMG mounts!") that wasn't thought-through.

There are those that say it needs balance, I again say no!

Can you try to defend the idea of an unbalanced game?

There is a huge amount that can be done as this game has unlimited flexibility.

QFE.

[samagee]

Absolutely, completely, and 100% wrong.

That is true, but weak. Conversely, just because WOW or Warhammer does something doesn't mean it would be bad in DDO.


QFE.

Actually since WoW is geared toward the newbs to the net, and in most instances online games, I tend to look at anything WoW flavored with apprehension. I don't like WoW period, and I don't want it in my online game. So, if it starts to get WoW flavored I will go elsewhere. Because I can.

[nbhs275]

Actually since WoW is geared toward the newbs to the net, and in most instances online games, I tend to look at anything WoW flavored with apprehension. I don't like WoW period, and I don't want it in my online game. So, if it starts to get WoW flavored I will go elsewhere. Because I can.

Im not seeing how WoW is "geared to the newbs". Sure the basis of the ruleset is simple, but becomes much more of a power gamers type of experience past the first few levels. I love people that insult WoW yet have never played it, and complain when critics and forums do the same to DDO.

[samagee]

Im not seeing how WoW is "geared to the newbs". Sure the basis of the ruleset is simple, but becomes much more of a power gamers type of experience past the first few levels. I love people that insult WoW yet have never played it, and complain when critics and forums do the same to DDO.

I love assumptions. you just wasted yourself there in the debate.
I see powergamers as newbs, because they completely miss the point of the game. Just because you could walk up and kick the **** out of a disabled person, do you do it?

[Angelus_dead]

Im not seeing how WoW is "geared to the newbs".

There are lots of WOW features that can be pointed out as newb-oriented... but there are a lot that aren't. WOW is designed to have a pyramidal hierarchy among players, with an elite group doing special quests where some customers never dare set foot.

The degree to which they adhere to that design focus wavers, and recently WOW doesn't have a tough raid in the peak endgame (which might be costing them powergamer subscriptions). For example, WOW raids were originally 40-player, which obviously took serious dedication just to get the group scheduled. Now they've been reduced to 10-25 players.

Here is an illustrative comment from the WOW devs about their newb/uber focus:

While we can all laugh about Karazhan being srs bzns now, at the time a lot of players wiped on the boney horses and never went back. That's a shame because it was a cool instance and a gateway to a lot of additional raid content. Some of the best moments in WoW occur in these raids. You see unique art (and hear unique music!), scripted events and some amazing lore moments. It makes me sad to think of players who will never even step foot in Naxx. But that doesn't mean all of our raid content needs to be at the introductory level. If you're looking for a challenge, I suspect you will find it in Ulduar.

[Riorik]

Can you try to defend the idea of an unbalanced game?

What was that game..."Torq". The one where you existed in a multiverse and the players all had a handful of playing cards (special cards) and probabilities where if you didn't like something that occurred, you could choose to re-roll or otherwise change the last outcome.

Interesting idea, just seriously flawed and to me, unbalanced.
Fun? Yeah, I guess it was - in a "you as the player get to do whatever you want and sorta play god" way.

I would argue that balance is irrelevant, sometimes. The fun factor is what's actually important in a commercial application. And, I believe that's already happened multiple times in DDO since the start.

Balance is just for the rules-lawyers.

[EinarMal]

Without balance and trade offs there is no game. All options get reduced to just a few, most classes become useless, and the game dies....the end.

[GlassCannon]

Without balance and trade offs there is no game. All options get reduced to just a few, most classes become useless, and the game dies....the end.

Like right now with TWF Barbarian W/P Rapier users...

[Angelus_dead]

I would argue that balance is irrelevant, sometimes. The fun factor is what's actually important in a commercial application. And, I believe that's already happened multiple times in DDO since the start.

Balance is just for the rules-lawyers.

Balance is a prerequisite for fun in every large-scale game.

[Borror0]

Balance is a prerequisite for fun in every large-scale game.

Only if it's intended for there to be diversity.

Take Sonic-like or Mario-like characters where there is nothing to choose, but only one single character with no customization within itself.

Obviously, this is irrelevant to DDO.

[Angelus_dead]

Only if it's intended for there to be diversity.

That statement makes no sense.

Balance is a lot more important than diversity; it's easy to list examples of games which are fun without diversity, but fun imbalanced games are much rarer (and upon closer examination might not have really been imbalanced at all).

Take Sonic-like or Mario-like characters where there is nothing to choose, but only one single character with no customization within itself.

Is that supposed to be a joke? I guess not, and you instead used an example that doesn't really support your point. (The example might have been valid in 1985, but was solidly outdated by 1988)

Sonic and Mario are not the only characters in the games in which they appear, and the differences are more than just cosmetic. In fact, amoung game designers Mario is used as an exemplar of a certain kind of class balance: "Mario choice" is one that provides above-average capabilities in every field, but who is the best at nothing.

[Deathseeker]

Put me in the "balance is good" camp.

What's funny is the assumption that all "nerfs" are bad for the game. That would assume that the dev's either get everything perfect every time, or if they do make a mistake in design its always in making the player too weak vs the content, or they should always correct everything by elevating everything besides the offending item/skill/ability/issue.

As we all know none of that is ture, the premise that all "nerfs" are bad for the game is silly.

Its a balance between the negative effect of the nerf (ie breaking builds or equipment or otherwise invalidating time spent by a player) vs the positive effect it will have on maintaining balance AND diversity (those two go together, they are not opposed).

It is fair to think a nerf goes to far to the negative for the benefit...that's rational. To say any nerf is bad for the game is just ridiculous.

[Borror0]

What's funny is the assumption that all "nerfs" are bad for the game.

Continuing on what you said, nerfing can be there preferred for multiple reasons.

The most obvious one is the amount of work required. That nearly always the major reasons behind it. In some case it's obvious, like class vs class imbalance because toning down one class is easier than improving nine classes. It's even truer when the imbalanced is caused by one ability, but improving the other classes would require the greater of multiple abilities for each class.

In other cases, the amount of work required is less obvious, like restoring value to random loot but further upon analysis you are to face a serious dilemma: breaking the continuity or nerf. In the current game, I think we will all agree that random loot is nearly worthless and that Green Steel is to blame for this. From that point, either random loot suddenly becomes more powerful or you tone down the guilty pieces of equipment to soften the curve. There is also the option to improve the current loot tables in a manner that progression will remain smooth by improving the quality of loot in lower levels. However, the amount of work required could be greater if the loot becomes so good that quests become too easy, as quests would need balancing, and the idea is discarded.

The biggest problem by not softening the curve would be the negative impact on new players and the more casual players, as under equipped players would lack behind and enjoy less their adventuring. That would be how nerfing could be preferred in this instance.

If balance would be the only issue each time, nerfing wouldn't be preferred but there are other constraints.

This should have been more concise and brief, but there is a lot to say on that topic...

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Diversity is much easier to enable in PnP than it is in an MMO.

With PnP there are only roleplayers.

If we only had roleplayers in DDO then we wouldn't need to worry about balancing the game...all classes would be played and all builds would be viable.

Forget PnP when yer talking about DDO...its irrelevant.

[Uska]

Absolutely, completely, and 100% wrong.

D&D was meant to be balanced. If you don't believe me, go read PHB and DMG and then come back. Pay particular attention to concepts like CR, CL, and EL.


Do not confuse the words "meant" and "is". The English language uses different words for a reason. The fact that a person failed at a difficult goal doesn't mean he never actually wanted to succeed.


That is true, but weak. Conversely, just because WOW or Warhammer does something doesn't mean it would be bad in DDO.


Wrong. The idea that anything is perfect like it is and needs no improvement is almost always untrue, regardless of the context.


Do you have an example of someone who wants it to be like WOW? I've seen occasional examples of people requesting WOW-like features, but they've mostly been silly stuff ("OMG mounts!") that wasn't thought-through.


Can you try to defend the idea of an unbalanced game?


QFE.

No your wrong they tried to over balance 4E and look at it its a fine minis game or combat sim but horrible rpg

[Borror0]

No your wrong they tried to over balance 4E and look at it its a fine minis game or combat sim but horrible rpg

But you said it, right. Overbalance? Balance is good, too much is bad?

[Uska]

But you said it, right. Overbalance? Balance is good, too much is bad?

dnd has never really been balanced and I have never seen anything wrong with that

[Borror0]

dnd has never really been balanced and I have never seen anything wrong with that

As a DM, did you refuse some classes/races because they were too overpowered?

[samagee]

/signed!

Balance defeats diversity every time! If people are to weak minded to play according to their play style, then this game isn't for them. I am beginning to think traits people use in game extend to their real world habits as well.

The worst thing Wizards of the Coasts could have done in version 4 of their rule set was to institute balance and mimic online games. Online games have mocked them for decades and they failed to note that trend. True signs of a company not in touch with their user base, or wanted to sell something else with a proven and trusted title.