Balance and D&D

[samagee]

That makes no sense: in reality, Balance enables Diversity

Imbalance kills diversity.

If it was stating tomorrow that you and I had to have everything alike in order to be balanced, how would that promote diversity?

[Borror0]

If it was stating tomorrow that you and I had to have everything alike in order to be balanced, how would that promote diversity?

Except that is not what balance is. Balance is making each trade off somewhat equally attractive.

It has nothing to do with being all the same.

[Aranticus]

If it was stating tomorrow that you and I had to have everything alike in order to be balanced, how would that promote diversity?

wrong. if everything is alike, it is not the same as balanced. its like saying it is balanced when everyone has a ford focus to drive. balance more like people buying a SUV or a sports car. SUVs are good for off road driving but suck at speeding. if you like speed, then opt for a ferrari. good for race tracks but useless when off road

each has its own strengths and weaknesses but when everything factored in, none is better than the other

[Uska]

Absolutely, completely, and 100% wrong.

D&D was meant to be balanced. If you don't believe me, go read PHB and DMG and then come back. Pay particular attention to concepts like CR, CL, and EL.


Do not confuse the words "meant" and "is". The English language uses different words for a reason. The fact that a person failed at a difficult goal doesn't mean he never actually wanted to succeed.


That is true, but weak. Conversely, just because WOW or Warhammer does something doesn't mean it would be bad in DDO.


Wrong. The idea that anything is perfect like it is and needs no improvement is almost always untrue, regardless of the context.


Do you have an example of someone who wants it to be like WOW? I've seen occasional examples of people requesting WOW-like features, but they've mostly been silly stuff ("OMG mounts!") that wasn't thought-through.


Can you try to defend the idea of an unbalanced game?


QFE.

No your wrong they tried to over balance 4E and look at it its a fine minis game or combat sim but horrible rpg

[Borror0]

No your wrong they tried to over balance 4E and look at it its a fine minis game or combat sim but horrible rpg

But you said it, right. Overbalance? Balance is good, too much is bad?

[Milolyen]

If it was stating tomorrow that you and I had to have everything alike in order to be balanced, how would that promote diversity?

That statement there shows you do not understand what balance means.

"you and I had to have everything alike" that is equal NOT balance.

Balance means that you can make different choices but all of those choices are equally viable.

In a game that is not balanced that means one style of play is superior to other styles of play. There are three melee styles of fighting ... Two Weapon Fighting, Two Handed fighting, and S&B. If all three are balanced (not equal) then you have 3 choices to build a viable char. If one becomes vastly overpowered (TWF come to mind?) compaired to the other 2 then you pretty much only have one choice and to not choose that your char is not as viable as the others.

In a game like this the majority of the player base creates the most viable chars and currently TWFing is so much more effective at killing that if you roll some other form of melee people actually question why you would do so. Exactly how does that incourage diversity? To me it shows less diversity. Three forms of melee and what? About 80% of melee are TWF ... that is not diverse specially when that other 20% are more than likely older chars that where created before the balance shift. If they balanced the 3 melee forms (again balance NOT make the same) you would expect to see closer to a 30/30/40 split and that is more diverse than a 10/10/80 split.

Milolyen

[baddax]

That's DM meta-gaming. How would slimes and molds know who was carrying the most gear?

Not sure but I seem to remember Rusties having a special craving for magic items the more powerful the better from 2.0 days? Sorta the way rusties make a B line for any Wf's in a party. num,num,num!they have some sort of way of sensing wf etc.

Also remember the Book Worm had a nasty habit of hidding in chest and leaving 1 or 2 scrools uneaten, then since Wizzards reqiuired their books to memorize spells they wouldnt notice til later that some of their most valuable spells where gone! Oh, the crys! i rememebr them well....

[Timjc86]

If it was stating tomorrow that you and I had to have everything alike in order to be balanced, how would that promote diversity?

Balance should be a constant focus for the dev team. Note that that's "balance" not "sameness".

You are talking about sameness or equality. It is not the same as balance.

[branmakmuffin]

Not sure but I seem to remember Rusties having a special craving for magic items the more powerful the better from 2.0 days? Sorta the way rusties make a B line for any Wf's in a party. num,num,num!they have some sort of way of sensing wf etc.

Also remember the Book Worm had a nasty habit of hidding in chest and leaving 1 or 2 scrools uneaten, then since Wizzards reqiuired their books to memorize spells they wouldnt notice til later that some of their most valuable spells where gone! Oh, the crys! i rememebr them well....

PnP monsters like Disenchanters, Rust Monsters, Ear Seekers, Mimics, etc., which exist solely to annoy PCs and/or deprive them of gear are the result of bad game design and/or bad DMing. Don't put so much Monty Haul gear in the game in the first place and there'll be no need to take it away later. Kind of like nerfing in DDO. Don't make stuff so uber and it won't have to nerfed later.

[Deathseeker]

You are talking about sameness or equality. It is not the same as balance.

Very good point Tim...this mistake is made all the time in these debates, and people use it as a false point to argue against balance. Here are some simple examples.

1. Sameness/Equality example: All classes can achieve an AC from 50 to 60.

2. Balance example: Some classes can achieve a high AC by sacrificing DPS, while others can achieve lower AC but have increased DPS. The perceived effectiveness of going either path is similar.

3. Unbalanced example: One class shall be able to achieve both a high AC and high DPS, making them equally effective at both. Other classes shall have to choose trading off between one or the other.

Example 1 would create a complete lack of diversity and make builds very boring.

Example 2 would create lots of diversity as people would choose to go whichever route they enjoy playing most, but would all feel effective.

Example 3 would create lack of diversity as players will migrate toward the more effective class.

Today's DDO has many situations such as example 3, and many of us are arguing to make them more balanced. I havent heard anyone argue for sameness/equality.

[frugal_gourmet]

PnP monsters like Disenchanters, Rust Monsters, Ear Seekers, Mimics, etc., which exist solely to annoy PCs and/or deprive them of gear are the result of bad game design and/or bad DMing. Don't put so much Monty Haul gear in the game in the first place and there'll be no need to take it away later. Kind of like nerfing in DDO. Don't make stuff so uber and it won't have to nerfed later.

That's a bit of a broad brush there. Risk to the player's favorite item can make the game exciting.

[branmakmuffin]

That's a bit of a broad brush there. Risk to the player's favorite item can make the game exciting.

When I DM'd, I never used monsters like Disenchanters, Adhererers and Rust Monsters for two main reasons: they're really stupid monsters and I never handed out such Monty Haul loot that I later felt the need to take it away because it was unbalancing the game. When I DM'd (and the way I preferred to play as a player), if the players had masterwork gear and maybe one or two special enchanted items among them, that's a good game.

[Chaos000]

When I DM'd, I never used monsters like Disenchanters, Adhererers and Rust Monsters for two main reasons: they're really stupid monsters and I never handed out such Monty Haul loot that I later felt the need to take it away because it was unbalancing the game. When I DM'd (and the way I preferred to play as a player), if the players had masterwork gear and maybe one or two special enchanted items among them, that's a good game.

good for you

As a DM I like throwing in at least one action beat every hour and a half, and would much rather take the players get through at least one or two storylines before we all start getting lives and have to disband the group.

It's not that I give out tons of loot, it's that players tend to use fluff text as a means to advance their personal wealth. for example: "oooo musty history books are on the shelves? I'll take that with me... tables and chairs are inlayed with silver? we can probably put it on the pack mule we have outside. hey rogue! give me a hand with these ornate doors of solid oak if we use a little acid on the hinges it should come off"

sure they can do whatever they want in the game... if they're unlimited in the sense that they can literally carry out every single item out of the dungeon irregarless of how impractical. throw in a gelatinous cube, rust monster and an ooze or two will help teach monty haul characters to travel light and only carry necessities

[frugal_gourmet]

When I DM'd, I never used monsters like Disenchanters, Adhererers and Rust Monsters for two main reasons: they're really stupid monsters and I never handed out such Monty Haul loot that I later felt the need to take it away because it was unbalancing the game. When I DM'd (and the way I preferred to play as a player), if the players had masterwork gear and maybe one or two special enchanted items among them, that's a good game.

I'm sure it was a good game and your players had fun. But still, my point stands. I also had fun. At least I think I did.

[Uska]

But you said it, right. Overbalance? Balance is good, too much is bad?

dnd has never really been balanced and I have never seen anything wrong with that

[Uska]

When I DM'd, I never used monsters like Disenchanters, Adhererers and Rust Monsters for two main reasons: they're really stupid monsters and I never handed out such Monty Haul loot that I later felt the need to take it away because it was unbalancing the game. When I DM'd (and the way I preferred to play as a player), if the players had masterwork gear and maybe one or two special enchanted items among them, that's a good game.

In our group magic items were rare and special but we still ran into things like rust monsters but we were smart as players and gms about them, the gms gave clues they might be about and as players we used good tactics to defeat them yes there was risk and once or twice we lost something but it was the fear of loss that made the encounters exciting

[Uska]

As a DM, did you refuse some classes/races because they were too overpowered?

I just used the core books and allowed all classes races from them, I didnt buy splat books for 3- and didnt allow anything I didnt own, one player offered to buy me a book if I allowed it I was tempted but in the end didnt do it. I will say in 2.0 we tried the skills and powers books and we did end up baning those. I was the only gm in our group to run anything beyond 2.0 and in that we did allow the unearthed arcana.



sweet another ninja

[Borror0]

dnd has never really been balanced and I have never seen anything wrong with that

As a DM, did you refuse some classes/races because they were too overpowered?

[Chaos000]

As a DM, did you refuse some classes/races because they were too overpowered?

This is actually a very common practice to disallow certain classes/races outside of the core 3 books.

As a rules monger myself I just had to make sure I knew the rules well enough so that the system wouldn't be exploited. Throw in a psionic handbook you've got to familiarize yourself with a whole new list of feats and monsters to integrate into the game. Complete Champion... Complete Scoundrel... etc.

[baddax]

Maybe im just twisted but i occasionally would allow over powered items in the game just to watch the crys and squeals of players as they had them ripped from their grasp. ie the quest for the powerful artifact to save the world but then must be destroyed to to save the world from the artifact.

Sure i would give hints "are you sure you want to do that?", "you sense an aura of evil about" etc etc. but in the end all through the house the heart wrenching screams and crys of "Why Why Why?!?!?" and of course i was Very symapthetic to the players, "it was Just bad luck of the Dice" i would say! all the wile plotting my next evi... er i mean great Adventure!!

BTW i dm'd 2 steady groups from all the way to college hardly lost any players exept to RW events marriage,moving and such. Still some of my fondest memories of growing up.