Balance and D&D

[baddax]

Ok, read through al the responses.. I think 1 has been address enough.. Needless to say, I agree that PnP D&D is certainly intended to be balacned and its up to the individual DM;s to make sure the game is fun for everyone playing. WHo would play if one guy inthe group had a W/P like we have here in DDO and just mowed down every monster before anyone had a chance to do aything? Or one Arcane was able to burn every mob to the groud that the group came up against?

2: Tolkien was the original what? Inventor of Fantasy settings? WHile I agree he may have popualized it, there are storys of Dragons and Knights far before Tolkien was ever born.

3:What leads to the Demise for some will lead to the rebirth for others. many many D&D PnP Fans adamantly shun this game because it deviates from PnP on so many levels. Many more peple shun this game because it Deviates from the WoW standard so much. Making changes that appeal to the masses rather than the power gamer is GOOD for Turbine. There will always be Power Gamers no matter what the game looks like. Getting fresh blod into the game allows turbine to continue to develope more and better content.

THe biggest problem that Faces DDO IMO is the lack of things to do other than Kill THings. With each mod we get 5 or 10 dungeons or areas to Kill stuff in. Then what? We did it... We killed everything..... Now what? Maybe I'll build a house... Nope... Work on my crafting? Nope.... Challeeng another guild to a war of some sort? Nope... Rerun the content we just got Over and Over? Hey! Theres a Great Idea!!!! Its getting old.......

/agree 100%!

[Borror0]

They can be quantified; it's usually difficult and probably imprecise, but it's possible.

You can put values on imbalance? What units do you use?

[Angelus_dead]

You can put values on imbalance? What units do you use?

What units? It varies; in extremis I'd choose furlongs per furlong.

Not every number needs to have a unit to represent meaningful information.

[baddax]

IMO the biggest tools for balance is quest design. Turbine has taken quite a few liberties with blanket immunities and such, witch as a former DM i personlay dont agree with. I think the best way to get more Balanced characters is to create more balanced quests. Create quests that allow all character classes a chance to shine, some more than others and you will have more balance. If quests required a more balanced approach to player selection then more people would build balanced characters. Any good DM worth 1/2 a cp knows his players strengths and weaknesss and doesnt need to fudge with rules much to Encourage his players to role more balanced characters! For example if all the fighters roll characters with 8 wisdom and a 2 for their will saves guess what is the next spell caster by the opposing clerics? you guessed it Greater Command! Once they get tired of lying on their backs for Minutes at a time watching the rest of their party get slaughtered before opposing forces turn their attention to them then guess what ? its REROLL time! Easy as pie!

[esoitl]

3) Nerfing weapons, rules, NPC's and gameplay will only lead to this games demise because you will be re-inventing the game set that so many know intimately and love just the way it is.

Yes but when they aren't introducing them as per the D&D rules, we are still left with a re-invention of the game some/most of us know.

I assume this is based off of the "ZOMG don't nerf WoP" whine fest. Read a sourcebook on puncturing weapons and tell me that's what we have in DDO.

[Borror0]

Not every number needs to have a unit to represent meaningful information.

It was a sarcastic remark, because I doubt you can measure imbalance.

How do you quantify personal preferences? How do you quantify that one will prefer self-sufficiency or that ones prefers a set up as he tends to overheal on his cleric?

No matter what situation you are going to emulate, it will be far from perfect. It will be a situation that will never be real as it will be piloted by virtual players. Each player will perform better one way or another. "Better", in the case of a character, is subjective to an extent. Each player has its flaws that can be offset by his character design or his preference relevant to his playstyle.

Even if you were going to consider most factors, likes DPS, AC, saves, monsters' AI and anything that can be mechanically predicted, those will be far too theoretical and not even close to the result obtained in a real quest. You couldn't apply your 'results' to humans and say that you objectively proved that this or that build is imbalanced because there will be someone who will disagree with you, and he doesn't have to be stupid, he simply have to have different preferences.

[Fenrisulven6]

Tolkien was the original what? Inventor of Fantasy settings? WHile I agree he may have popualized it, there are storys of Dragons and Knights far before Tolkien was ever born

And Tolkien himself admits to borrowing heavily from older folk tales and mythology.

3) Nerfing weapons, rules, NPC's and gameplay will only lead to this games demise

More likely, monty haul will lead to this games demise. Have you ever seen a monty haul campaign go off the rails?

[baddax]

And Tolkien himself admits to borrowing heavily from older folk tales and mythology.



More likely, monty haul will lead to this games demise. Have you ever seen a monty haul campaign go off the rails?

No but sounds like fun

[Chaos000]

More likely, monty haul will lead to this games demise. Have you ever seen a monty haul campaign go off the rails?

I kinda like the monty haul, it's only a means to an end which is have better gear so as to not have to spend too much time beating down the trash mobs and end boss in the raid.

Then it's like "yay loot!" which is akin to pulling the lever at the random item generation table to see if you got anything good. I'd do it all day if not for raid timers and non-guarantee of a timely successful run with the wrong mix of people.

[Fenrisulven6]

I kinda like the monty haul, it's only a means to an end which is have better gear so as to not have to spend too much time beating down the trash mobs and end boss in the raid.

Then it's like "yay loot!" which is akin to pulling the lever at the random item generation table to see if you got anything good. I'd do it all day ...

Me too. Even though I've seen where it leads - a total wipe of the campaign and restart from scratch. The trick is balancing it [there's that word again] on the forward edge so that the devs/DMs don't see the cracks forming.

Did the same thing in PnP. Kept a few of my uber tactics in reserve for emergencies only, because I knew if I used them regularly, it would screw up the campaign and he would nerf me.

[Chaos000]

Did the same thing in PnP. Kept a few of my uber tactics in reserve for emergencies only, because I knew if I used them regularly, it would screw up the campaign and he would nerf me.

Hee hee. My trick as DM was to make any sources of mobility and increased carrying capacity a constant target throughout the campaign. Mules and hierlings always get attacked by predators first. Gelatinous cubes and molds always go for the person carrying the highest concentration of items. They learned the hard way that I included a scroll of rope trick in a chest so that they'd climb in with their portable holes and bags of holding.

when they stopped trying to carry everything of value out of a dungeon I started to ease off a little bit.

kinda like hitting a dog over the head with a newspaper

[Fenrisulven6]

So you're the one who killed off all our elephants!

[Angelus_dead]

No matter what situation you are going to emulate, it will be far from perfect.

Nirvana Fallacy.

Just because my number might not be perfectly accurate doesn't mean I can't quantify balance, and it certainly doesn't mean the numbers won't be good enough to be useful guidelines to tweak the game design. (Are you familiar with how the game-balance in "Go" was quantified?)

[GlassCannon]

Without balance and trade offs there is no game. All options get reduced to just a few, most classes become useless, and the game dies....the end.

Like right now with TWF Barbarian W/P Rapier users...

[Borror0]

Nirvana Fallacy.

Wrong choice of words from my part.

What I'm saying is that "imbalance" is subjective. Where I personally view imbalance, you might not see it. Since DDO is played by humans with different preferences and skills, "imbalance" can't mean the same. Oh, sure, you can identify where most people see imbalance by polling, for example, but it won't be objective. Otherwise, you wouldn't need to poll.

If you mean a mathematical analysis based on the stats of each builds to view their effectiveness, then you can't say it is objective. A character's effectiveness is linked to the player who plays it. If a player is particularly good at using trigger abilities, paladin will be better than someone who is bad at it. Same applies for so many features of a character.

Are you familiar with how the game-balance in "Go" was quantified?

No. Sorry.

[Angelus_dead]

No. Sorry.

It's a good story, you might like to read the history in detail. Like chess, Go is a nearly symmetrical game so it's almost balanced by default; the only question is how much of an advantage you get by going first.

Chess has a first-mover balance problem, and it's insurmountable except by doing something like best of seven. However, Go uses a numerical scoring system, so analysis of game results enabled the point difference between black side and white side to be quantified, and it was rebalanced by giving the second mover a certain number of extra points.

[branmakmuffin]

Gelatinous cubes and molds always go for the person carrying the highest concentration of items.

That's DM meta-gaming. How would slimes and molds know who was carrying the most gear?

[Borror0]

Like chess, Go is a nearly symmetrical game so it's almost balanced by default; the only question is how much of an advantage you get by going first.

The only think I heard about the game is that there's contest for who can program a Go game on the computer where the AI can play at different levels of difficulty, or something like that. I could be wrong on the exact problem, but I think it had to do with being non-linear, unlike Chess.

[Angelus_dead]

How would slimes and molds know who was carrying the most gear?

And how can they move fast enough to catch anybody?

[branmakmuffin]

And how can they move fast enough to catch anybody?

Easy, the slime and mold shaman casts haste on them.