Required feats???

[boldarblood]

As a sorcerer, it is just plain foolish to take a spell that can just as effectively be cast from a scroll. GH is certainly one of these spells. Before any important battle, (i.e. heading to battle Sorjek) it is of course a very good idea to make sure the whole party has GH or when the rogue is tasked to find the difficult traps. However, it is an unnecessary party luxury 90% of the time. Its my experience that folks whinnying for GH when it normally should not be needed are usually poorly created melee'rs. Point out to them that you can scroll cast on them before the big battle with the end boss but not continuously. There are too many good 6th level spells to waste a spot on this spell. If you do, you will only marginalize your capability and be less effective to a party in the long run.

Empower is nice to have, but it really takes a back seat to many feats. Your intuition is correct here. Using just maximize is the most efficient way to spend your mana. Furthermore, if you know that you will use all of your mana in a given battle, you will in fact do more total damage with maximize alone than with maximize and empower. Perform some basic math and prove this to yourself if need be. Don't trade any feats for empower.

Extend is another great luxury feat. However, as was stated by someone earlier you are better off taking offensive feats as you have. Enlarge, for example is far better than extend. It enables you to deal with tough encounters outside the party danger range (especially if you use non aggro spells). If terribly necessary you can always rebuff on those rare occasions where 15 minutes is not long enough.

Finally, I just want to point out that unless you run a lot of easy areas (like the vale or vale quests on normal) spell penetration and spell DC are important considerations (especially for the new content and subter). I would guess that Mod 9 will continue the trend of high spell resistance and saves for trash monsters. I would suggest 25 minimum for SP.

Finally, PK is imo a horrible spell. Monsters get SR and two saves. A very inefficient way to deal with mobs. You can finger 95% of the trash mobs in every area currently. This spell should be used instead of PK. A real pro sorcerer kill quickly and consistently with as little mana as possible. IMO that's the sorcerers job.

If you are a warforge, then yes reconstruct is better than GH. But if you are a fleshy then the GH is much better. I run solo alot, and I do not want to waste that much scrolls for GH. I use it all the time. The +4 umd is great for never fail raise dead and heal on a 3 or higher.

I would much rahter have extend. I like extended haste/rage. Plus the extended spells like Acid Fog are great for raids. Extended buffs for things like VOD. I find the enlarge to be much more situational than extend.

I added Spell Pen 1 and 2 feats and maxed the 3 enhancements.

Finally, PK is a great spell if you build your sorc correct. Spell Pen 1/2 plus enhanements and heighten and it is very effective at end game. I can pk everything in the shroud that I can with finger at an extremely high rate. I also use it in all the vale quests with no problem at all. I throw pk/fod back to back with great effect and I rarely miss with pk.

[Samadhi]

A properly equipped sorcerer should not be scrolling any arcane spell that is cast regularly...

Why is that that I shouldn't regularly use scrolls of something so cheap to save my mana for something useful?

I don't know how you define "regularly," but I rarely GH anyone but myself unless the quest requires it for fear immunity or someone specifically needs it for their UMD

Greater Hero is by far the single spell that I cast the most often..... If you're not making use of it, then I don't want to be in your pugs.....

If GH is really the spell you cast most often, then you are playing a very poor sorc. To be honest, I highly doubt this spell uses more than 100-200 of your mana per quest, and therefore I don't believe this really is the spell you are casting most often.

[Dktr]

Why is that that I shouldn't regularly use scrolls of something so cheap to save my mana for something useful?

I don't know how you define "regularly," but I rarely GH anyone but myself unless the quest requires it for fear immunity or someone specifically needs it for their UMD



If GH is really the spell you cast most often, then you are playing a very poor sorc. To be honest, I highly doubt this spell uses more than 100-200 of your mana per quest, and therefore I don't believe this really is the spell you are casting most often.

sorry 6th level spell that I'm casting the most often... although, I was a very big fan of mass suggestion for a long while.. I have since made more use of the 3rd level spell suggestion, and I was able to get over my addiction to the mass version... Although, I can not wait for the level cap to raise; so, I can get mass suggestion back. I would never take mass suggestion over greater hero though..

[Dktr]

Sorry OP, your question was on required feats:

What I did originally was:

Start with Mental Toughness and Maximize at level 1 (if you're human)

Then take Extend at level 3
** if you haven't taken maximize yet- take it,now

Then take Skill Focus UMD or Enlarge or Extend at level 6
** again depending on playstyle...

Take Heighten at level 9

Take Spell Pen at level 12
(at this point I would swap Mental Toughness for Greater Spell Penetration with a dragonshard) You don't really need spell pen until you get to the vale at level 12

At level 15 Take either Enlarge, Spell Focus Necromancy, Skill Focus UMD, or Extend again depending on your playstyle.

[Vengenance]

My 2 CP

Feats:
extend
max
empower
heighten
spell pen I & II

With regards to GH, any sorc who carries GH as their level 6 spell is gimped IMO. At end level pretty much every character that needs GH should have it on a gird, most of my characters have 2-3 girds on them at end game. If someone doesn't have a gird then use a scroll on them or have a bard cast GH on them. My sorc carries 50-100 GH scrolls for use on himself or others if needed. Level 6 spells are just to good waste on an easily obtained self buff.

Choose Three
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Acid Fog
Reconstruct

I personally carry Acid Fog, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct. I'm not warforged, but I like to run VOD so it's useful to have when you have a WF tank.

[Dktr]

My 2 CP



With regards to GH, any sorc who carries GH as their level 6 spell is gimped IMO. At end level pretty much every character that needs GH should have it on a gird, most of my characters have 2-3 girds on them at end game. If someone doesn't have a gird then use a scroll on them or have a bard cast GH on them. My sorc carries 50-100 GH scrolls for use on himself or others if needed. Level 6 spells are just to good waste on an easily obtained self buff.

I personally carry Acid Fog, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct. I'm not warforged, but I like to run VOD so it's useful to have when you have a WF tank.

you see, I would argue that any sorc running with acid fog is gimped.. try solid fog + wall of fire or solid fog + cloudkill.. .maybe even all 3... save yourself some $$ on scrolls ... if you're deadset on not carrying gh.. you would still be better off swapping acid fog for flesh to stone.. FTS is great for soloing, it doesn't draw aggro if you miss the 1st cast .. and once you've made a lawn ornament you can beat on it with a puncturing weapon to save yourself sp...

[Samadhi]

you see, I would argue that any sorc running with acid fog is gimped.. try solid fog + wall of fire or solid fog + cloudkill.. .maybe even all 3... save yourself some $$ on scrolls

Most sorcs would argue lvl 4 spells are the hardest to fit stuff in (I have SF myself, but have considered trading it for DD on more than one occasion).

But the main thing, is that acid fog can do a pile of damage to many red named that are immune to fire. (I don't have room for acid on my sorc for myself, but my wiz uses it all the freaking time).

One top lvl quest will provide you enough sellable goods to equal one stack of GH scrolls, on average. This is not costly imo.

[rimble]

you see, I would argue that any sorc running with acid fog is gimped.. try solid fog + wall of fire or solid fog + cloudkill.. .maybe even all 3

Acid Fog + Wall of Fire is quite nice, thank-you-very-much. Can get a crit Acid Fog to sit on the Raid bosses, on Normal, for over 100 damage a tick, for over two minutes.

I personally carry Acid Fog, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct. I'm not warforged, but I like to run VOD so it's useful to have when you have a WF tank.

See, that just sound backwards to me. I ALWAYS use Greater Heroism, and carry Reconstruct scrolls for the rare times I need to play WF healer, which is very rare in my game.

Obviously everything plays out differently for everyone and their friends and their guild and whatever, so let's keep that in mind when we're flinging 'gimp's around.

[boldarblood]

Acid Fog + Wall of Fire is quite nice, thank-you-very-much. Can get a crit Acid Fog to sit on the Raid bosses, on Normal, for over 100 damage a tick, for over two minutes.



See, that just sound backwards to me. I ALWAYS use Greater Heroism, and carry Reconstruct scrolls for the rare times I need to play WF healer, which is very rare in my game.

Obviously everything plays out differently for everyone and their friends and their guild and whatever, so let's keep that in mind when we're flinging 'gimp's around.

Same, it is very very rare that I ever use Reconstruct or FTS. I use GH way more than either of those spells. I carry reconstruct scrolls, and don't use FTS (really only places I would use it would be Tor and Spiders in the Vale. I carry Acid Fog, Disintigrate, GH.

[Samadhi]

Same, it is very very rare that I ever use Reconstruct or FTS. I use GH way more than either of those spells. I carry reconstruct scrolls, and don't use FTS (really only places I would use it would be Tor and Spiders in the Vale. I carry Acid Fog, Disintigrate, GH.

Now this is true, that FTS isn't used that much. I've considered dumping it for acid fog a couple times. Unfortunately, the quests where FTS is useful - it is extremely useful.

In the end, the only lvl 6 spell I would say is really mandatory is disintegrate. There are just too many red named that nothing else will really work on.

[Dktr]

Rimble that is very well said and you are right. 6th level spells are a precious spell slot and there really is no right or wrong way to play them. It all comes down to playstyle. I use my sorcerer as a back-up cleric and place a high value on the umd skill.... Others play their casters as DPS machines and prefer lots of dmg quickly.. Ultimately, it all comes down to how you want to play the game and what works toward your playtstyle...

[BelVic]

For example i have seen a Hound-Raid fail because non of the 2 Sorcerers who were in the group had GH. Too many people got feared at the same time --> clerics + the bard got overstrained --> puppies died --> fail.

When asked why they didnt carry it one dropped group and the other just said: "Why should i carry it if you can just get yourself a Planar Gird. I have one."

Blame on pallies. They have new spell called Lionheart.

Spell: Lionheart
Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear

When I do DQ flagging fast I just ask ppl who wants to do wiz-king fast ( usually 1-2 person is enough - not necessary caster). Nobody ever ask me if they can get GH at the quest ( where mummy can fear you do death).

Besides planar gird, GH, Lionheart, being pally, there is also item called reaver ring and few other items to make you immune to fear.

[Dktr]

Now this is true, that FTS isn't used that much. I've considered dumping it for acid fog a couple times. Unfortunately, the quests where FTS is useful - it is extremely useful.

In the end, the only lvl 6 spell I would say is really mandatory is disintegrate. There are just too many red named that nothing else will really work on.

I have disintegrate as well, but that's the spell that I've been considering swapping out... In end-game content, it seems like everything is making their save against disintegrate, and polar ray works so much better... Although I do like to 1,2 red and purple names with polar ray and disintegrate.... I like FTS for soloing.. the fact that it doesn't draw aggro is key for me.... I don't have any trouble getting it to land on trash mobs....

[Vengenance]

you see, I would argue that any sorc running with acid fog is gimped.. try solid fog + wall of fire or solid fog + cloudkill.. .maybe even all 3... save yourself some $$ on scrolls ... if you're deadset on not carrying gh.. you would still be better off swapping acid fog for flesh to stone.. FTS is great for soloing, it doesn't draw aggro if you miss the 1st cast .. and once you've made a lawn ornament you can beat on it with a puncturing weapon to save yourself sp...

Acid fog isn't a great spell but it's decent DPS against most end game mobs and also provides a 20% concealment bonus at the same time. Level 4 spells are way too good to pick up solid fog when Acid fog is superior to it anyways. Try it on the bats at the end of VOD and see the bats switch aggro to you instead of the fighters giving the group an easy completion.

Flesh to stone is a great spell and I had it until I started running VOD and ran into many groups using a WF to tank solumedes so I picked up reconstruct. The spell is way better than using scrolls as it is affected by potency items and can be maxxed and empowered.

GH, like I stated before is available on an easy to obtain item that can be farmed or traded for. GH on a scroll is exactly as effective as GH from the spell, and can be used by anyone with a 40 UMD. My rogue and rangers can self cast this. Wizzards and Bards can also cast this spell. So, given all of that and the fact we only get 3 level 6 spells I once again state that any sorc who carries GH as a spell is gimped, IMO.

[boldarblood]

Now this is true, that FTS isn't used that much. I've considered dumping it for acid fog a couple times. Unfortunately, the quests where FTS is useful - it is extremely useful.

In the end, the only lvl 6 spell I would say is really mandatory is disintegrate. There are just too many red named that nothing else will really work on.

And don't get me wrong, absolutely love FTS. I wish I had 1 more spell so I could get both LOL. Makes running spiders easier when solo running it. (I want as much loot as I can and FTS those spiders at end makes it easier to get that extra chest). Those spiders have uncanny timing in jumping in front of my rays (scorching/polar) when fighting the end boss).

[Dktr]

Acid fog isn't a great spell but it's decent DPS against most end game mobs and also provides a 20% concealment bonus at the same time. Level 4 spells are way too good to pick up solid fog when Acid fog is superior to it anyways. Try it on the bats at the end of VOD and see the bats switch aggro to you instead of the fighters giving the group an easy completion.

Flesh to stone is a great spell and I had it until I started running VOD and ran into many groups using a WF to tank solumedes so I picked up reconstruct. The spell is way better than using scrolls as it is affected by potency items and can be maxxed and empowered.

GH, like I stated before is available on an easy to obtain item that can be farmed or traded for. GH on a scroll is exactly as effective as GH from the spell, and can be used by anyone with a 40 UMD. My rogue and rangers can self cast this. Wizzards and Bards can also cast this spell. So, given all of that and the fact we only get 3 level 6 spells I once again state that any sorc who carries GH as a spell is gimped, IMO.

Greater Hero is a necessity for a umd build Sorcerer. Yes, it can be scrolled. Yes, the scrolls are easlily obtainable. However, an extended Greater Hero lasts for 32 minutes. The scrolled version lasts for 11 minutes. VOD, Hound, and Shroud can take longer than 11 minutes (although shroud wiht upgraded weapons can be run in less than 11 minutes). When I have gh on myself, I can get my UMD to 40.

If I'm 12 minutes into a raid, and I'm putting up my fogs, fod'ing the trash, throwing my polar rays, throwing my ennervates.. drawing all kinds of aggro and all of a sudden I see the cleric's red bar drop or my redbar drop to nothing... Then, I go to throw a heal.. the last thing I want to see is that error message "UMD failure" and then notice there is no little yellow icon at the top of my screen.... Bottom line.. when I'm throwing a heal - it's because I need that heal to land. I may not necessarily be timing all of my buffs to know exactly when they expire.... 11 minutes into a raid- you're generally into the thick of it...

Not to mention the expense.. especially with how much I cast that spell...

[Vengenance]

Greater Hero is a necessity for a umd build Sorcerer. Yes, it can be scrolled. Yes, the scrolls are easlily obtainable. However, an extended Greater Hero lasts for 32 minutes. The scrolled version lasts for 11 minutes. VOD, Hound, and Shroud can take longer than 11 minutes (although shroud wiht upgraded weapons can be run in less than 11 minutes). When I have gh on myself, I can get my UMD to 40.

If I'm 12 minutes into a raid, and I'm putting up my fogs, fod'ing the trash, throwing my polar rays, throwing my ennervates.. drawing all kinds of aggro and all of a sudden I see the cleric's red bar drop or my redbar drop to nothing... Then, I go to throw a heal.. the last thing I want to see is that error message "UMD failure" and then notice there is no little yellow icon at the top of my screen.... Bottom line.. when I'm throwing a heal - it's because I need that heal to land. I may not necessarily be timing all of my buffs to know exactly when they expire.... 11 minutes into a raid- you're generally into the thick of it...

Not to mention the expense.. especially with how much I cast that spell...

What happens when you get dispelled, you recast, what happens when the spell runs out, you recast. Easy as that. Part of being a good caster is knowing when you should recast your spells. BTW, my caster has UMD as welll, and I never have the problems you seem to be bringing up and I run raids all of the time.

With regards to the raids you indicate:
If you run Hound and it goes longer than 6-7 minutes then you're not going to fail because you don't have GH on. At the 6 minute mark or so beholders start to spawn and your extended GH is worthless since it'll be dispelled anyways.

In VOD there is a big time delay at the 9-10 minute mark where you can refreshen all of your buffs if necessary.

No part of the shroud should last longer than 11 minutes and since there are shrines at the end of each a bard should be able to cast GH if needed. Why even cast extended GH on people anyways since most people shrine at the end of each part anyways. Acid Fog is much, much, much, much more useful in Shroud than GH is since only the first part requires some fear immunity and if a melee needs the extra +2 to hit on top of bard songs then that person is gimped.

Titan, the raid never lasts more than 5-6 minutes and there is no fear check.


DQ, No fear check and the raid doesn't last 10 minutes even on elite.

Dragon, No fear check and any buff you have is pretty much stripped away when you charge in.

As far as the expense, I have 2 capped clerics and they are far more expensive to run than my sorc. A stack of 100 GH scrolls lasts me months since I pretty much use them only on myself for the UMD. As soon as you tell the group you don't have GH someone else will cast it or you'll see the party start casting it on themselves.

[boldarblood]

GH, like I stated before is available on an easy to obtain item that can be farmed or traded for. GH on a scroll is exactly as effective as GH from the spell, and can be used by anyone with a 40 UMD. My rogue and rangers can self cast this. Wizzards and Bards can also cast this spell. So, given all of that and the fact we only get 3 level 6 spells I once again state that any sorc who carries GH as a spell is gimped, IMO.

I disagree with you.

Of the 6th level spells. acid fog and disintegrate are both I consider necesary. FTS is something I dont use anymore aside from 2 dungeons.

I dont travel with WF. Your group mechanics determine this. Like most, I run the raids through guild and a Custom channel of 5-6 different guilds. Out of these guilds there is only 1-2 WF that are non casters. So me carrying Reconstruct would gimp me. I solo alot of stuff on my sorc due to some of my playing time. The GH is much more useful than a spell I wont use at all in reconstruct. For those rare moments that I do need reconstruct I will use a scroll, and I have had the same stack for over 6 monhts. To make a blanket statement that a sorc is gimped for carrying GH is rediculous.

[gfunk]

My 2 CP

Feats:
extend
max
empower
heighten
spell pen I & II

With regards to GH, any sorc who carries GH as their level 6 spell is gimped IMO. At end level pretty much every character that needs GH should have it on a gird, most of my characters have 2-3 girds on them at end game. If someone doesn't have a gird then use a scroll on them or have a bard cast GH on them. My sorc carries 50-100 GH scrolls for use on himself or others if needed. Level 6 spells are just to good waste on an easily obtained self buff.

Choose Three
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Acid Fog
Reconstruct

I personally carry Acid Fog, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct. I'm not warforged, but I like to run VOD so it's useful to have when you have a WF tank.

good summary.. I have a human sorc that has the exact feats (plus enlarge for killing beholders... though that may change). These feats will allow you to do what most parties expect a sorc to do (if you are in to being a conformist)

That said, the OP's enchantment focus spec could be fun. I've seen mass holds work very well in Shroud with an enchantment spec'd sorc, and have considered swaping out myself just for a refreshing change. If you run with a consistant group of people, I think a sorc will do quite well to get a little creative with his feat/spell/enhancement selection even if its not considered "optimal" by the masses. (on an aside, I'd love to put together a group of force spec'd sorcs for a all caster shroud run...100's of mm's and fm's everywhere would be hilarious... should also be good on the portals).

For 6th lvl spells I carry disintigrate, reconstruct, and swap between GH and FTS (depending on planned activity of the next while). Even though my sorc is human, I like reconstruct as I am running VOD fairly consistantly recently (main WF tank healing duty.. dont leave it in the hands of those wimpy wizi's).

As others have said, I think scrolling GH is just fine, at level cap it shouldn't be too difficult to afford a continuous supply of scrolls. Though it is nice to have full length GH's on occassionm its really just a convinience thing

Also, I notice that not many people recommend carrying any sort of de-buff spells. I think they deserve a mention, as they can save your clerics a fair amount of mana in certain circumstances (though some of the debuffs will land OK off scrolls or items like the staff of arcane power).

[Junts]

Now this is true, that FTS isn't used that much. I've considered dumping it for acid fog a couple times. Unfortunately, the quests where FTS is useful - it is extremely useful.

In the end, the only lvl 6 spell I would say is really mandatory is disintegrate. There are just too many red named that nothing else will really work on.

Honestly, the only times my sorceror has ever wanted disintegrate is when running m5 content - golems, high-level blackbones, and the abbot himself.

It's a spell I'm intending to not take, though I can appreciate it's versitility. Then again, my sorceror's planning to carry a -very- selectively small number of damage spells; the endgame is all raiding, and the only damage spells that are relevant in any of them are firewall, cone, polar ray and acid fog; carrying scorching ray is purely convenience, for a cheap single-target spell when fw isn't appropriate for some reason.

What is the 4th level spell that most of you are not-giving-up over ddoor? I personally carry and love enervation, but I don't see it cast enough by others to believe that they are carrying the spell as well, and many also don't carry pk.

If you aren't a believer in either, I can't see how level 4 slots are hard.

I can only conclude that other servers must have vastly different wf populations than mine: I run vod a lot, and never with a wf tank (admittedly, I tank it a lot, but there's no shortage of available intimitanks on ghallanda, I haven't run it with a wf tank in months, and that one was so bad my pally took it away from him while wearing a cloak of curses.)