Please make manyshot a stance

[ryejar]

Just refering to abilities not targets. BUT TY, for the heads up on that. I belive the names in purple speak for them selfs. lol

[moorewr]

So, how would the "regenerating timer" work in this case?

Would we be trying to make it so you get several at the start of a fight if you are fresh, and then regenerate so that one shot in X is a manyshot in a longer fight?

[Angelus_dead]

So, how would the "regenerating timer" work in this case?
Would we be trying to make it so you get several at the start of a fight if you are fresh, and then regenerate so that one shot in X is a manyshot in a longer fight?

I won't go into details about how it "should" be, but here's an example of how it could work, based on transitioning Manyshot from the current simple-cooldown system into a more flexible recovering charges system.

Current:Manyshot for 20 sec duration, 120 sec cooldown (total uptime 20/120 = 16%)
New:Manyshot for 10 sec duration, 10 sec cooldown, 2x charges regen 1 per 60 sec. (total uptime 10/60 = 16%)

So you see there, the new system allows the player to use Manyshot the same total time he can today, but it's more flexible: if you Manyshot a monster and kill it after 8 seconds, you don't have 12 more sec of MS going on and being wasted. You can use the next charge right away, or later.

That's the general idea, but I'd take it a bit further: instead of having something called a "Manyshot" charge, instead have a "Trick Shot" charge, which can be spent for several kinds of abilities (including stuff like Ranged Trip, Ranged Hamstring, Manyshot, and even Sniper Shot). For that idea, there'd be more than 2 charges (1 per 5 BAB, maybe), and they'd regenerate faster. Manyshot would change from a buff to a single action. Obviously a lot of things would need to change for that system.

[moorewr]

I won't go into details about how it "should" be, but here's an example of how it could work, based on transitioning Manyshot from the current simple-cooldown system into a more flexible recovering charges system.

Current:Manyshot for 20 sec duration, 120 sec cooldown (total uptime 20/120 = 16%)
New:Manyshot for 10 sec duration, 10 sec cooldown, 2x charges regen 1 per 60 sec. (total uptime 10/60 = 16%)

So you see there, the new system allows the player to use Manyshot the same total time he can today, but it's more flexible: if you Manyshot a monster and kill it after 8 seconds, you don't have 12 more sec of MS going on and being wasted. You can use the next charge right away, or later.

That's the general idea, but I'd take it a bit further: instead of having something called a "Manyshot" charge, instead have a "Trick Shot" charge, which can be spent for several kinds of abilities (including stuff like Ranged Trip, Ranged Hamstring, Manyshot, and even Sniper Shot). For that idea, there'd be more than 2 charges (1 per 5 BAB, maybe), and they'd regenerate faster. Manyshot would change from a buff to a single action. Obviously a lot of things would need to change for that system.

Very well thought out.. I have often thought that it was peculiar that the AA True Strike (and the Deepwood sniper equivalent) would fire a manyshot salvo. Tying the various abilities to one timer would make a world of sense.

I would still want a Manyshot "on/off" like combat stances.. (ie, when on you consume charges automatically when shooting) rather than remembering to mash a manyshot attack button. The downside being that you would have to manage your charges if you wanted to be sure to have a non-manyshot trick effect.

[gfunk]

I don't really see why ranged dps should be compared or be comparable with tempest. Obviously, tempest DPS should be much higher (for both thematic and game play balance reasons).

But, I would argue that S&B should also have higher dps then ranged. As it currently stands, if ranged melee cycles manyshot every 2 minutes, they will get more attacks then a S&B fighter (though with some shots not being eligable for crits).

I suppose the best thing would be to compare a S&B GS khopesh user with a ranged melee using some form of greensteel bow (maybe triple pos vs triple pos?). If I get time I'll try and do it, but maybe someone out there already has the numbers.

Ranged combat is already situationally pretty powerful. On the way to Hound a ranger can take out all 3 beholders in that cloverleaf shaped room during the duration of 1 many shot, before any melees get in close. Thats something that even a good caster would be hard pressed to do.

** edit, in case you didnt get the sense of it from the above thoughts, I am not in favor of making manyshot a stance.

[Angelus_dead]

But, I would argue that S&B should also have higher dps then ranged. As it currently stands, if ranged melee cycles manyshot every 2 minutes, they will get more attacks then a S&B fighter (though with some shots not being eligable for crits).

No: as it "currently stands", a manyshot user can crit with every attack. Their crits aren't as good because longbows are a tier-3 weapon (tier 1 = khop, 2 = rapier, 3 = axe, 4 = mace)

But, I would argue that S&B should also have higher dps then ranged.

Well, both S&B and archery need some improvements, and they'd be better if they were in the field of other benefits instead of raising DPS of either. What the DPS should be is fairly dependent on what improvements they get.

[gfunk]

No: as it "currently stands", a manyshot user can crit with every attack. Their crits aren't as good because longbows are a tier-3 weapon (tier 1 = khop, 2 = rapier, 3 = axe, 4 = mace)

Well, both S&B and archery need some improvements, and they'd be better if they were in the field of other benefits instead of raising DPS of either. What the DPS should be is fairly dependent on what improvements they get.

well, below is the information I had regarding manyshot, hence my comments. I certainly have never noticed manyshot criting on more then 1 of the 4 arrows.

Manyshot [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special). For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).
Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.
Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.
A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats. A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

[Thrudh]

Current:Manyshot for 20 sec duration, 120 sec cooldown (total uptime 20/120 = 16%)
New:Manyshot for 10 sec duration, 10 sec cooldown, 2x charges regen 1 per 60 sec. (total uptime 10/60 = 16%)

So manyshot becomes like smite evil?? Interesting... (I'll want some enhancements to increase my number of manyshots, please!!)

[moorewr]

I've watched for crits just to verify this, and I can say, yes, as far as it is possible to tell you can have multiple crits or crits on any arrow in manyshot.

Bonus thought: a rogue with manyshot just became very interesting to consider.

[maddmatt70]

I won't go into details about how it "should" be, but here's an example of how it could work, based on transitioning Manyshot from the current simple-cooldown system into a more flexible recovering charges system.

Current:Manyshot for 20 sec duration, 120 sec cooldown (total uptime 20/120 = 16%)
New:Manyshot for 10 sec duration, 10 sec cooldown, 2x charges regen 1 per 60 sec. (total uptime 10/60 = 16%)

So you see there, the new system allows the player to use Manyshot the same total time he can today, but it's more flexible: if you Manyshot a monster and kill it after 8 seconds, you don't have 12 more sec of MS going on and being wasted. You can use the next charge right away, or later.

That's the general idea, but I'd take it a bit further: instead of having something called a "Manyshot" charge, instead have a "Trick Shot" charge, which can be spent for several kinds of abilities (including stuff like Ranged Trip, Ranged Hamstring, Manyshot, and even Sniper Shot). For that idea, there'd be more than 2 charges (1 per 5 BAB, maybe), and they'd regenerate faster. Manyshot would change from a buff to a single action. Obviously a lot of things would need to change for that system.

Too short.. 10 secs is too short a time for a clicky. There should never be something shorter then 20 seconds. You lose about 1-2 seconds of dps everytime you activate the clicky. Think about it this way before somebody uses manyshot they buff themselves up in a sense with other clickies. If you are a deepwood sniper you first hit the +1 to crit range clicky before you go into manyshot, if you are a kensai you will hit the strength boost and fighter haste boost every time before you do it now imagine what that will mean in the current format. I would say just a single 20 seconds of manyshot every 90 seconds would solve alot of archer problems and raise their dps quite a bit to be competitive at end game.

[maddmatt70]

I don't really see why ranged dps should be compared or be comparable with tempest. Obviously, tempest DPS should be much higher (for both thematic and game play balance reasons).

But, I would argue that S&B should also have higher dps then ranged. As it currently stands, if ranged melee cycles manyshot every 2 minutes, they will get more attacks then a S&B fighter (though with some shots not being eligable for crits).

Why? in pnp a ranged character does more dps then an S&B.

Ranged combat is already situationally pretty powerful. On the way to Hound a ranger can take out all 3 beholders in that cloverleaf shaped room during the duration of 1 many shot, before any melees get in close. Thats something that even a good caster would be hard pressed to do.

.

So can an assassin rogue, caster or cleric with enlarge or just a simple pally with very high saves can solo it easily and regularly so I fail to see your point.

[Angelus_dead]

Too short.. 10 secs is too short a time for a clicky. There should never be something shorter then 20 seconds. You lose about 1-2 seconds of dps everytime you activate the clicky.

Objecting to specific implementation details is unwarranted in response to a self-described "simplified" design example. You have no basis to make those kinds of concrete accusations about a hypothetical game system. Your assumptions about implementation details are utterly unjustified.

If you are a deepwood sniper you first hit the +1 to crit range clicky before you go into manyshot

That is exactly backwards from what a deepwood sniper actually does.

[Angelus_dead]

well, below is the information I had regarding manyshot, hence my comments. I certainly have never noticed manyshot criting on more then 1 of the 4 arrows.

If you had read this thread before posting to it, you'd have seen the question of whether DDO Manyshot allows crits has already been covered in detail.

[Emili]

I've watched for crits just to verify this, and I can say, yes, as far as it is possible to tell you can have multiple crits or crits on any arrow in manyshot.

Bonus thought: a rogue with manyshot just became very interesting to consider.

Ambyre crits a lot on many shot... and typically if the 1st arrow crits those in the same volley often do also. Misbehaven's rogue levels makes manyshot very attractive... with GS another few d6 helps . Both these rangers have IC:ranged in their build and some elven ranged damage to boot... Einin who is a tempest, a strength ranger at that can weild a bow but even with her 32 str - compared to the 26 and 24 str ranges Ambyre and Misb have... Einin totally sux with a bow in comparison - is the IC: ranged playing that much difference? I can take Ambyre to DQ and wipe her out in half the time Einin can. Ambyre and Misbehaven have finesse and IC: pierce on top of their IC; ranged and other ranged feats ... so it's very easy for them to adapt into melee roles outside their primary ranged ones... tempest though are hard pressed to go the other way.

[smyter]

Hate it.

Make Manyshot a stance

Fix extra arrows so they do not crit or get sneak attack bonuses. Why would they loose this bonus?

Drop your rate of movement during the firing animation unless you have Shot on the Run. Do you not already suffer a to-hit penalty?
Reduce the straight-back run speed (you know, the "over the shoulder" animation) - voila, you can't just kite and shoot forever... Is this for everyone, or just bow users?

Bring in Rapid Fire for stationary fire does this stack with rapid shot?

[Angelus_dead]

Fix extra arrows so they do not crit or get sneak attack bonuses. Why would they loose this bonus?

Two reasons: because the D&D rules say so, and because it's conceptually difficult for someone to make carefully precise attacks with more than one arrow from a volley: they can't all aim directly for the eyeball.

Drop your rate of movement during the firing animation unless you have Shot on the Run. Do you not already suffer a to-hit penalty?

You do, but that's not enough of a drawback to reduce the viability of kiting.

[gfunk]

If you had read this thread before posting to it, you'd have seen the question of whether DDO Manyshot allows crits has already been covered in detail.

I read it. I just didn't consider the unreferenced quotes from people to be reliable... at least not till several people posted confirming the matter.

[moorewr]

Welcome to the discussion.

Drop your rate of movement during the firing animation unless you have Shot on the Run. Do you not already suffer a to-hit penalty?

Yes, and why that isn't enough is covered earlier in this thread.

Reduce the straight-back run speed (you know, the "over the shoulder" animation) - voila, you can't just kite and shoot forever... Is this for everyone, or just bow users?

Bring in Rapid Fire for stationary fire does this stack with rapid shot?

Everyone, and yes.

[maddmatt70]

Objecting to specific implementation details is unwarranted in response to a self-described "simplified" design example. You have no basis to make those kinds of concrete accusations about a hypothetical game system. Your assumptions about implementation details are utterly unjustified.

I personally dislike 20 second buffs although I use them on my fighter, rogue, etc. They are really inefficient when you look at it in terms of the time it takes to activate which is taken from dps to the decrease of attention on the targets, to etc. I believe that all of these buffs should be 30 seconds much less 20 and for sure not 10 seconds.

That is exactly backwards from what a deepwood sniper actually does.

Nope.. Manyshot adds more dps then +1 to crit range; hence, I am not interrupting one second of manyshot to add to crit range.

[Emili]

Hate it.

Make Manyshot a stance

Fix extra arrows so they do not crit or get sneak attack bonuses. Why would they loose this bonus?

Drop your rate of movement during the firing animation unless you have Shot on the Run. Do you not already suffer a to-hit penalty?
Reduce the straight-back run speed (you know, the "over the shoulder" animation) - voila, you can't just kite and shoot forever... Is this for everyone, or just bow users?

Bring in Rapid Fire for stationary fire does this stack with rapid shot?

Manyshot as a stance would effectively be the quickest attacks in DDO... Bow ROF is 47 per min... Manyshot on a 16th level character is 4 arrows thus effectively 188 attacks per minute if it were capable of being on for a minute constantly. Comparison with GTWF at 16th level is 83 main hand and 83 off hand = 166 per min.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=16

Let's say they draw back manyshot to PnP rule where only 1st arrow may crit... It is still quite formidable, also shoul improved Precise shot toggle off because manyshot is now a stance?

Another thing which crosses my mind ... Rangers get most ranged feats for free plus twf chains.... While a ranged ranger is not a high profile melee, most ranged builds can be very good secondary melee... ie.) My pure ranger Ambyre Shards not only has IC: Ranged but also finesse and IC: Pierce... at decent dex 38 she still has a reasonable str 24 before rams or rage ... thus is capable of hitting 28-30 str ... she has full FE damage plus elf damage enhancements for bows and rapier/longswords... while not a tempest going toe-to-toe she can dish out some nice twf with a rapier and other offhand weapon... Thus yet again ranger becomes the most formidable and versitile full BaB class.

I'm not sure... I suppose I will have to go retest and gather some more numbers on game mob as it is right now I feel if anything ROF of bows can be increased a little but to put manyshot on forever would pale PA, CE or near any other feat in value.