Please make manyshot a stance

[moorewr]

This is a plea to change manyshot to a stance like power attack or combat expertise. This is both to bring it closer to PnP and to end the time management headache of the manyshot timer.

From the d20 SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot :

Manyshot [General]
Prerequisites

Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit

As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.
Special

Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

My full prescription (copied from post on page 2):

• Make Manyshot a stance
• Fix extra arrows so they do not crit or get sneak attack bonuses
• Drop your rate of movement during the firing animation unless you have Shot on the Run
• Reduce the straight-back run speed (you know, the "over the shoulder" animation) - voila, you can't just kite and shoot forever...
• Bring in Rapid Fire for stationary fire

[Aranticus]

/signed

[Arkat]

Yeah, even though I don't play a Bow user, I think that timer is BS.

/signed

[sephiroth1084]

/signed

[vainangel]

I Offer the Timer on Many Shot gets minus X seconds on cool down every Z level or something like that. For the sake of game balance.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Agreed. A few ranged rangers might actually show up.

[Angelus_dead]

This is a plea to change manyshot to a stance like power attack or combat expertise. This is both to bring it closer to PnP and to end the time management headache of the manyshot timer.

By "make it a stance", do you mean you want to at least double the sustained DPS of longbows, against an assumed low-AC target?

If so, how can you justify that tremendous gameplay change?

[Aranticus]

By "make it a stance", do you mean you want to at least double the sustained DPS of longbows, against an assumed low-AC target?

If so, how can you justify that tremendous gameplay change?

what do you mean justify? is it justified for the rof of bows to be sup-par?

[sephiroth1084]

By "make it a stance", do you mean you want to at least double the sustained DPS of longbows, against an assumed low-AC target?

If so, how can you justify that tremendous gameplay change?

Why a low-AC target? Archers have fewer ways to gain bonuses to attack (rage, and its related ilk do not have the same effect on ranged attacking as they do upon melee), and having that higher attack value (Dex) usually means the character has taken a hit in DPS somewhat vs. the melee specialist who gain boost attack and damage together. So, a -8 penalty on attack rolls will make a difference in some quests.

Besides, as someone who tends to present justification for his statements, why not see what the DPS of someone with manyshot on all the time is compared to someone going: S&B, TWF and THF? Be sure to give the melee guys whatever bonuses are melee exclusive (like Power Attack), and the ranged attacker their exclusive buffs/bonuses (Point Blank Shot and Manyshot).

[Angelus_dead]

is it justified for the rof of bows to be sup-par?

If by "sub-par" you mean "less than a melee weapon", then yes, in fact it is justified. Giving bows MORE DPS than THF is obviously bad for gameplay, and even giving them a similar amount is bad.

The only way a Manyshot stance could be acceptable if that means something other than allowing rangers to double their arrow rate at the cost of some penalty on attack rolls. (For example, if you get 2 arrows per shot but shoot 40% slower, that might not be overpowered)

Too often, people who want to "fix" ranged combat assume that increasing DPS is a way to do it, and they particularly tend to think doubling, tripling, or quadrupling DPS by permanent manyshot would somehow be OK.

[Angelus_dead]

Why a low-AC target? Archers have fewer ways to gain bonuses to attack (rage, and its related ilk do not have the same effect on ranged attacking as they do upon melee)

An elf ranger has +4 racial dex, +3 class dex, and +2 racial longbow attack.

So, a -8 penalty on attack rolls will make a difference in some quests.

Yes, -8 might hurt sometimes, but -2 or -4 usually won't, and those are enough to double or triple DPS.

Besides, as someone who tends to present justification for his statements, why not see what the DPS of someone with manyshot on all the time is compared to someone going

Would I really need to spell out something so obvious? Anyone who has been in the party with a ranger who got out his bow every 120 seconds will remember what that would look like.

[Hordo]

/signed

[moorewr]

By "make it a stance", do you mean you want to at least double the sustained DPS of longbows, against an assumed low-AC target?

Yes, a stance like Power Attack, and yes, it would increase your sustained DPS against low-AC targets for the 100 seconds out of every 120 that manyshot is off currently.

A question for those of you more experienced with manyshot - does Turbine's manyshot allow criticals on the 2nd or 3rd arrow now? I assumed not, but it is worth checking. Certainly part of the package here would be insuring that the extra arrows are non-crit.

If so, how can you justify that tremendous gameplay change?

a) In pen-and-paper (where I admit the AC/to-hit competition is quite different) it can be used as often as the archer desires. I consider making the rules of DDO more like the rules of D&D 3.5 an objective in of itself. Mock away.

b) Not all (of course), but many, encounters are quite short, so the main impact is not on the effective DPS of a character with manyshot is on their time management. Currently there is a benefit to the player in spending the majority of their time waiting for the manyshot timer. This is especially notable when a ranged-build ranger (or anyone else with manyshot) is solo-ing.

c) It's a popular sentiment, one that I share, that ranged DPS is weak in DDO compared to its place in Pen and Paper, so gameplay changes to make playing that ranged character more effective and more fun are a good objective.

[Angelus_dead]

A question for those of you more experienced with manyshot - does Turbine's manyshot allow criticals on the 2nd or 3rd arrow now?

Of course it does. The 4th arrow can also crit. And of course, they can all have Sneak Attack too.

[Aspenor]

The main issue with boosting ranged DPS into the realm of THF DPS is that well, the ranger is RANGING, he's not putting himself in danger.

[moorewr]

One more response to A_D: yes, I am alive to the gameplay risk of making ranged DPS too effective. If one goes only a little too far in increasing ranged DPS this game would turn into Kite Runner On-Line.

Here's a point at which v3.5 sacrifices a lot of realism.. the only penalty for firing using Manyshot, without the Shot on the Run feat at a dead run is another -4 to hit. I have enough trouble knocking an arrow at a walk, let alone knocking two or three while sprinting.

It might have been better in DDO terms to slow the character while firing unless they had SOTR, which would have made SOTR a useful feat.. given that idea maybe a Manyshot stance could knock a % of your movement speed. Unfortunately that would call for changes to SOTR, the firing animation, etc., and would not be derived from pen-and-paer rules.

[moorewr]

Of course it does. The 4th arrow can also crit. And of course, they can all have Sneak Attack too.

So how many /signeds can I lose by insisting that turning off sneak attack and crit on the 1+n arrows is part of the package?

[Angelus_dead]

For those of you who want longbow DPS to be more than doubled, you'd do well to think through what you're asking for.

A simple experiment is load your ranger and solo to some dungeon encounter, especially a boss fight, and beat him once with TWF and then (after resetting the quest) again with a bow. Count up the number of attack rolls and saving throws the monster got on you, and then divide by the number of seconds he took to fight you. See what I mean?

It's true that it would be helpful to improve ranged combat somewhat, but multiplicatively boosting DPS is not the way. (It also helps to ponder this koan: "Does ranged stack with melee?")

[Rickpa]

A ranger with many shot is often the highest DPS going for the duration. Having it as a stance would be unbalancing to the extreme. I think tweaking either the duration of many shot, or the cool down timer would be a good thing, but to make it always on would throw the universe out of alignment.

[Aspenor]

A ranger with many shot is often the highest DPS going for the duration. Having it as a stance would be unbalancing to the extreme. I think tweaking either the duration of many shot, or the cool down timer would be a good thing, but to make it always on would throw the universe out of alignment.

I have to respectfully disagree here, people tout manyshot as if it's HIGH DPS, it's not, not even close. A dual wielding tempest ranger with green steel mops the floor with an archer in manyshot, the ROF is just too **** slow.