WF Adamantine DR

[baylensman]

Why do you say WF have a lack of AC? I'll admit right away that I have no experience in the end-game, but the numbers I've run haven't shown that. And if I'm wrong about that, I'd like to know!

With the DT docent, a WF ends up with the equivalent of +9 bracers (Composite w/ DT) or +7 Mithral Breastplate (Mithral w/ DT). For those who wear armor, I can only think of how a Dwarf can potentially beat this, by having a big DEX and fully enhancing the max dex bonus. As far as I can tell, the DT armors for fleshies are far inferior to Mithral+DT docent.

For the no-armor build, the WF has the advantage of having the bracer slot available, so can also use Chaosgaurde. A Halfling can do some very good things, too, in this scenario, including +2 from DEX, +1 from WIS (assuming Monk), +1 from Halfling, and +4 from Icy Raiments. But that's only true if willing to simply eat the -2 STR and -4 CON, which is almost never true. I've found a much more realistic guess is just 1 extra point from DEX or WIS. So for things that are different:

Halfling
+1 stat
+1 Halfling
+4 Raiments

WF
+2 Chaosgarde
+2 from DT Docent vs. +7 bracers

Thus the Halfling has 2 more points of AC. But the WF has an advantage that the DT docent can be enhanced with +3 Insight, whereas the Halfling needs to take up the Ring slot (and actually GET a Chattering Ring) in order to get that. So it seems to me that the realistic AC potential of the Halfling is at most "marginally better," and that WF is, at worst, in second place.

Where have I gone wrong in my analysis?

I don't crunch numbers on builds I just go my experience having two capped alts both WF. one addy one mithral un-buffed no matter how i arrange items or feats or enhancements max AC seems to be about 27. while many of the fleshies I run with have standing AC of well over 30. However back to DR while iI get hit a little more often, I tend to take less damage per hit. I'll eagerly await Hu's analasys later today.

[BlackSteel]

I don't crunch numbers on builds I just go my experience having two capped alts both WF. one addy one mithral un-buffed no matter how i arrange items or feats or enhancements max AC seems to be about 27. while many of the fleshies I run with have standing AC of well over 30. However back to DR while iI get hit a little more often, I tend to take less damage per hit. I'll eagerly await Hu's analasys later today.

WF can get it up there as well, once I finish my WF cleric he'll have +21 AC from stats, 10 base, and 9 armor (10 with ritual) for a plain jane standing AC of 41. Tack on insight, protection, natural, chaosgardes, chat ring, etc... I believe his max AC potential is 78 raid buffed on a 14/2 WF cleric/monk without combat ex.

[Thanimal]

I don't crunch numbers on builds I just go my experience having two capped alts both WF. one addy one mithral un-buffed no matter how i arrange items or feats or enhancements max AC seems to be about 27. while many of the fleshies I run with have standing AC of well over 30. However back to DR while iI get hit a little more often, I tend to take less damage per hit. I'll eagerly await Hu's analasys later today.

I strongly suspect these are Barbarians. Generally, a well-built Barbarian has no AC at all. Keep in mind that 27 and 40 are usually functionally identical in the end-game: both are being hit by the enemies on a 2. I accept that a typical WF Barb has even worse AC than a typical fleshy Barb, but BOTH values fall below the useful threshold, so the difference doesn't actually affect play.

I'm thinking more about builds that target 60's and 70's (and even 80's in uber-buffed configuration). For these types of builds, my numbers are telling me that WF are capable of being among the best ACs of any race. Perhaps Hu will show me where I have gone wrong.

[Wizzly_Bear]

only read a few posts so far so may have already been said, but addy body is GREAT for the low levels when enemy melee damage is low and so are your hps. once your hps and their damage get high, its near worthless.

edit: think of it like this. in low levels, it can provide you with anywhere from 10-100% damage resistance. once you get to double digit levels though, its likely only providing 0-5%.

[cforce]

only read a few posts so far so may have already been said, but addy body is GREAT for the low levels when enemy melee damage is low and so are your hps. once your hps and their damage get high, its near worthless.

edit: think of it like this. in low levels, it can provide you with anywhere from 10-100% damage resistance. once you get to double digit levels though, its likely only providing 0-5%.

I think you're really understating those percentages; 0-5% is understating. I'd ballpark a median melee hit on my level 16 WF tank at around 40* points of damage. I run around with DR 6 when I'm not stoneskinned, which represents about a 15% damage reduction.

* - There are mobs that hit harder than this. There are also a lot of mobs that hit softer. I'm also talking about a spread of quests -- explorer areas, various Shroud/SoS flagging, and a variety of runs from Normal to Elite. This may make me "weird", but I don't just run raids on Elite with my capped characters!

This gets into opinion, but I think it's oversimplifying to make any of the following statements:

Myth 1. You are always stoneskinned in the end-game. (I'm not, even in many raid groups before final fights.)
Myth 2. DR 10 like Stoneskin gives you is good. All lower DR values are worthless.
Myth 3. If you go DR, you must dedicate *all* your non-bonus feats to DR.

OK, whether you can afford to spend DR feats depends *a lot* on your build. A character that only has the 6 base feats has little room for Imp DR. A character with 6 base and 10 bonus feats has a lot more room. hfp is correct that you need to make decisions on your base feats between Imp DR and all other non-bonus-feats, but getting DR 5 from Addy Body, 1 Imp DR feat, and 6 AP is a reasonable expenditure for a build that is feat rich, and DR 5 does do some good: for a character that has 360 hit points, it's like adding an additional 40 hit points *and* +15% from divine healing, all rolled into one.

[Wizzly_Bear]

I think you're really understating those percentages; 0-5% is understating. I'd ballpark a median melee hit on my level 16 WF tank at around 40* points of damage. I run around with DR 6 when I'm not stoneskinned, which represents about a 15% damage reduction..

addy armor does not grant DR 6, which is what i was referring to.

[cforce]

addy armor does not grant DR 6, which is what i was referring to.

Ah, my bad, sorry about that. I *did* read the whole thread, where the discussion moved holistic DR including contributions from AB, Imp. DR, and enhancments. You pointed out that you hadn't read the thread, but I still took your reply in cotext anyway. Once read, it's hard to un-read the thread!

I hearily agree that no-one should take *only* Addy Body for the DR!

However, saying "DR 2 is of low value in the end game" is a bit different from saying "Addy Body is of low value in the end game". That's kinda like me saying, "Hey, if I *only* wear this Chattering Ring, my AC is only 13! Wow, Chattering Ring sucks!" 13 total AC is bad, +3 AC is good when combined with other sources.

Similarly, Addy Body isn't great on its own in the end game, but can still be valuable when combined with other sources.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Similarly, Addy Body isn't great on its own in the end game, but can still be valuable when combined with other sources.

this is what i meant to say, with the caveat that even on its own its good in the early game.

[Thanimal]

this is what i meant to say, with the caveat that even on its own its good in the early game.

Glad you guys clarified! I completely misunderstood you before.

And fwiw I completely agree.

[hu-flung-pu]

Sorry for the lateness of my post, but I've decided not to break it down, I instead played a high DR fighter as an experiment.

He's still only seventh level, but running Gwylans Stand on Hard, and intimidating Zared Mightyhoof, in the middle of the room, everyone else is dropping like flies, and I've still got 3/4 of my health bar, spamming intimidate, and swinging.


I still say it's too expensive to achieve this kind of DR, literally spending every character feat I have just to achieve a 5/Adamantine DR. I can't do much else but stand there and be a punching bag. So is it worth it? Undetermined as of yet, but I do imagine that in order to keep the DR as impressive, I have to keep pumping it up higher and higher.

It'll lose it's luster and glitter.

[Thanimal]

Sorry for the lateness of my post, but I've decided not to break it down, I instead played a high DR fighter as an experiment.

I greatly look forward to further reports! I'm experimenting with a very-high-DR eventually-to-be Kensai 18/Monk 2. But I'm leveling him so slowly that I don't think I'll have useful experiences to report until the rules have radically changed anyhow!

[hu-flung-pu]

That's what my build is.

2 monk for the WIS bonus to AC, and evasion, and the two extra martial arts feats.

I took deflect arrows, and toughness. Since All my character feats were being used for DR, it opened up toughness for me instead of dodge which I originally took.

[Jay203]

well, you get base 2/adamantine dr from the body
then +1 for lvl 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18
which nets you 7/adamantine
+3 from enhancements will get you permanent 10/adamantine DR
so think of it has permanent stone skin
is it worth it? that depends on you =)