WF Adamantine DR

[esoitl]

Just built a WF Fighter with the Adamantine body as I know my AC will be fairly poor but figured I could make use of the DR and even bump it further through some extra feats I'll likely have. It doesn't seem to show up in the combat log as actually applying though.

I've never had a WF with the Adamantine body before, is this normal?
I'd hope they don't start equipping the Cultists with Adamantine weapons starting at level 1

[hu-flung-pu]

Just remember that your adamantine DR doesn't stack with anything else, so I wouldn't invest too much in to it unless you're going all out and spending every feat and enhancement on it you can.

It works, it'll say it in your combat log how much you deflected.

[rimble]

Since it doesn't stack, maybe if you're wearing some of the DR 3 newbie bracers then those are superceding your 2 DR from Adamantine Body.

[esoitl]

It's the only DR that I have. I'm awar of the non-stacking and as I plan on making this a pure Fighter I don't expect to have many other sources of DR. As a pure Fighter I also expect to at least have a few feats to be able to spend on upping the DR a little.

I know it won't be huge but as it's already not showing up I'm wondering the use of it....
I'll post a SS of my combat log next time I log on.

[hu-flung-pu]

Improved DR doesn't count as a fighter class feat, only as a character feat. So every three levels.

You'll be hurting yourself by taking DR feats. You'll miss out on things like bullheadd, and skill focus feats if your an Intimidator, and toughness. It's such a sink hole to raise up your DR that 10/adamantine, is matched by a single spell, stone skin, and you get that about half way through, you wouldn't get the 10 DR until 16th. Throw in the duergar with adamantine, and it's worthless.

I am curiousabout your combat log though, it should say something like;

"You have taken 4 damage from Sauhagin Whelp, 2 was stopped by your damage resistance."

So you'd take 2 damage.

[Tuney]

Nope what happen was you took 6 damage. You take 4 points of damage while 2 was stopped by the DR,.

[hu-flung-pu]

Sure about that?

[esoitl]

Improved DR doesn't count as a fighter class feat, only as a character feat. So every three levels.

You'll be hurting yourself by taking DR feats. You'll miss out on things like bullheadd, and skill focus feats if your an Intimidator, and toughness. It's such a sink hole to raise up your DR that 10/adamantine, is matched by a single spell, stone skin, and you get that about half way through, you wouldn't get the 10 DR until 16th. Throw in the duergar with adamantine, and it's worthless.

I am curiousabout your combat log though, it should say something like;

"You have taken 4 damage from Sauhagin Whelp, 2 was stopped by your damage resistance."

So you'd take 2 damage.

You make a good point on the stoneskin... although I dislike relying on that. At most SS is 120 dmg? I plan on making this build a Kensai and thus two handing so I know my AC will be pretty useless. Also THF isn't as feat intensive and you can skip some of the normally taken feats as they will be rather irrelevant.

Most of the imprtant ones I can take wit hmy bonus feats and the rest can be intermixed with the non-fighter bonus feats to get a half respectable DR. Sure, I may never get to DR/10 but I'm assuming I'll take more than the damage that will de-buff SS so it will come into play at some point, nor will I always be SSed so I can't and don't want to rely upon that.

I guess one of my major concerns is that it isn't showing up on the combat log now. Is this a case of lvl 1 monsters with adamantine weapons or is it not applying properly? It may be applying yet just never registering on the combat log which is more or less what I'd like to know. As I said before, I've never had a WF with the Adamantine Body feat so I've never been through it before. Does it work at higher levels? Not having it sort of makes me wonder what in the game actually has an adamantine weapon to pass the DR?

If it's just a waste of feats then I'll pump my Toughness and anything else I feel relevant but as of now I had a plan of getting some DR on this build. *shrug*

[esoitl]

Hmmm... just went into a quest to get a screenshot(Stealthy Repossession) and it was showing in the log

I guess I now have to ask an experienced WF player with Adamantine body, how well does it work? Has anyone put any feats into increasing the DR? Is it useless?

[MysticRhythms]

You make a good point on the stoneskin... although I dislike relying on that. At most SS is 120 dmg? I plan on making this build a Kensai and thus two handing so I know my AC will be pretty useless. Also THF isn't as feat intensive and you can skip some of the normally taken feats as they will be rather irrelevant.

You are right about THF being less feat-intensive. My Warforged is also headed for Kensai and I also took the Adamantine Body feat. At one point I had the Improved DR feats, but once the requisites for Kensai came out, I had to make room for all fo the Weapon Focus and Weapon Sepcialization feats and still keep my other stuff. I did keep the enhancements to give me 4DR and mine definitely shows up in my combat log. One way yuo can truly test it out is in PvP with someone who has an adamantine weapon and then swaps it out. It should be functioning.

Most of the imprtant ones I can take wit hmy bonus feats and the rest can be intermixed with the non-fighter bonus feats to get a half respectable DR. Sure, I may never get to DR/10 but I'm assuming I'll take more than the damage that will de-buff SS so it will come into play at some point, nor will I always be SSed so I can't and don't want to rely upon that.

This is definitely true. After many fights, I jsut do a running total on what my DR prevents and even having "just DR 4" stops more damage than Toughness does against even the trash monsters. And I have Wizards Stoneskinning me fairly readily. The Body feat is worth it. For a kensai, I think the Improved DR feats are not worth it as you need so many feats devoted to offense, and if you're a Warforged, you likely want to take advantage of some tactical feats too.

I guess one of my major concerns is that it isn't showing up on the combat log now. Is this a case of lvl 1 monsters with adamantine weapons or is it not applying properly?

Either it's not applying properly or perhaps it's in the combat log and you missed it? The better way to do a controlled test is in a PvP arena with a friend.

If it's just a waste of feats then I'll pump my Toughness and anything else I feel relevant but as of now I had a plan of getting some DR on this build. *shrug*

You can make room for Adamantine Body AND Toughness and jsut use AP's to get some more DR.

My current feat train looks like this:

01: Adamantine Body (General)
02: Weapon Focus (Fighter)
03: Two-Handed Fighting (General)
04: Weapon Specialization (Fighter)
06: Power Attack (Fighter)
06: Cleave (Fighter)
08: Improved Critical (Fighter)
09: Great Cleave (Fighter)
10: Stunning Blow (Fighter)
12: Improved Trip (General)
12: Improved Two-Handed Fighting (Fighter)
14: Greater Two-Handed Fighting (Fighter)
15: Toughness (General)
16: Quick Draw (Fighter)
18: Greater Weapon Focus (Fighter)
18: Greater Weapon Specialization (General)
20: Skill Focus - Intimidate (Fighter)

That gives me all of the tactical feats, the option to go Sword/Board and Intimitank with Combat Expertise as well as get a lot of weapon effects with Kensai + Two-Handed Fighting + Cleave/Great Cleave. If I dislike anything, it might be the Cleave/Great Cleave and I specifically used Gneeral slots on those feats so I could swap them out for just about anything (even goign back to Improved DR if I want or trying nwe things as they cmoe out)

It's almost sad to say that even with being a pure fighter, you still wish you could get more feats

[Thanimal]

Hmmm... just went into a quest to get a screenshot(Stealthy Repossession) and it was showing in the log

I guess I now have to ask an experienced WF player with Adamantine body, how well does it work? Has anyone put any feats into increasing the DR? Is it useless?

I have used DR on several builds and actually started a Kensai targetting Fighter 18/Monk 2 without DR and then decided to do a respec and switch back to the DR option. (NOTE: The 2 Monks levels provide 2 more feats, notably the aformentioned Toughness. But on that path I took DR at level 1 instead of Adamantine. 1 less point of DR but I desperately want Evasion.)

There's no doubt that Stoneskin is a little "scary" because it can potentially make all DR obsolete. BUT if you're not willing to assume that you'll have Stoneskin, or you think it will get exhausted too quickly, then DR is actually excellent.

For a great treatment of why it's better than most people think, see this (rather outdated but still interesting) WF Guide: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=126983

Also note that the Bodyfeeder effect "stacks" with DR, such that a Kensai fighter, even more so thanks to critical widening at 18, can get to a "virtual DR" in the 20s by using a Bodyfeeder Scimitar or Rapier.

Definitely give it a shot. You may not end up loving it, but don't decide that until you've tried it. The impact of DR is really hard to feel unless you make two nearly identical characters and play one then the other. I have actually done that, and without the DR you suddenly feel really squishy!

[MysticRhythms]

I guess I now have to ask an experienced WF player with Adamantine body, how well does it work? Has anyone put any feats into increasing the DR? Is it useless?

I believe the body feat is worth it as well as some enhancement of it. Comparing it to Toughness is one way to establish its value. Another way is to compare it to Bodyfeeder. Think of DR X/Adamantine as Bodyfeeder X except that it works every time you are hit rather than everytime you hit on a crit.

If in a typical quest, you are hit 20 times (assuming no Adamantine weapons, which is fair for most quests), the DR of just the body feat is equivalent to 40 more hit points. That's more than Toughness can give you.

People who claim DR isn't worth it are looking at getting hit for 40 or 50 poitns of damage per swing and that's not the usual case. I don't think one should go overboard and spend all of their general feats and AP's to get to the max DR possible, but that's jsut because I like feats.

I do think that Adamantine Body itself gives you more effective hit points than Toughness does and Toughness sees a lot of use (mostly because of the enhancements to take it further).

I've done the math on many quests and I can't tell you how much plat I've saved in Cure Serious potions just by having the DR 4 I do.

[esoitl]

Cool cool.

As I said before the application seems to have been 'fixed'. Not sure why it wasn't showing up in the Cannith Crystal when I ran it.... maybe the Devourer Cult equips their members better *shrug*.

Anyways, nice to know it will at least apply in the higher levels. Sort of afraid they'd have the weapons to bypass which would be a pain to invest in for nothing.

Cheers!

[hu-flung-pu]

I believe the body feat is worth it as well as some enhancement of it. Comparing it to Toughness is one way to establish its value. Another way is to compare it to Bodyfeeder. Think of DR X/Adamantine as Bodyfeeder X except that it works every time you are hit rather than everytime you hit on a crit.

If in a typical quest, you are hit 20 times (assuming no Adamantine weapons, which is fair for most quests), the DR of just the body feat is equivalent to 40 more hit points. That's more than Toughness can give you.

People who claim DR isn't worth it are looking at getting hit for 40 or 50 poitns of damage per swing and that's not the usual case. I don't think one should go overboard and spend all of their general feats and AP's to get to the max DR possible, but that's jsut because I like feats.

I do think that Adamantine Body itself gives you more effective hit points than Toughness does and Toughness sees a lot of use (mostly because of the enhancements to take it further).

I've done the math on many quests and I can't tell you how much plat I've saved in Cure Serious potions just by having the DR 4 I do.

I agree that some DR is better then none. It's supposed to be the equalizer bonus Warforged have for their lack of AC in game. The problem is the damage is amped up, the AC is cranked higher, and the DR is marginally increased, not accounting for Docent of defiance, of course.

But if I'm getting hit more, my damage intake should be countered by mitigating more of it through DR, like the old barbarian<-->fighter debate. Throw in the fact that its defeatable and not untyped like barbarian, it loses a bit of it's significance. Not to mention if you want the enhancements, it's 12 AP's that need to be spent for an additional 3/adamantine. 12 AP's that another race fighter/paladin/barbarian doesn't have to spend to equal, since they can just throw on a suit of adamantine heavy armor. Where as the warforged has to spend a feat and 2 AP's, or 12 AP's.

The only reason I could see why it's so expensive, is to discourage all other warforged classes from walking around with Adamantine full plate DR. But something tells me a lot of people could find a better use for those AP's on non-melee centric classes.

The worst thing is that your increased DR doesn't stack with anything since it's passive, not active. It leaves a lot of feats, and AP's I could have put to other uses, offering utility, or trying to mitigate my weaknesses in other areas.

[MysticRhythms]

The problem is the damage is amped up, the AC is cranked higher, and the DR is marginally increased, not accounting for Docent of defiance, of course.

How is this a problem? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "AC is cranked higher and DR is marginally increased." Are you trying to say that DR doesn't scale well with monster damage as you go up in level?

But if I'm getting hit more, my damage intake should be countered by mitigating more of it through DR, like the old barbarian<-->fighter debate.

I think that expecting it to be "countered" is expecting a lot. Consider the value of things like transmuting weapons or how annoyed people get at seeing "yellow numbers" on enemies when we swing. In many cases, using transmuting or "the right weapon to bypass DR" is done to avoid "only" a DR of 5 on a monster. If "only" a DR of 5 is enough of a nuisance to a player that the player seeks out weapons that bypass DR (consider the popularity of Mineral II greensteel) then shouldn't it also stand that having DR should be equally valuable?

Throw in the fact that its defeatable and not untyped like barbarian,

While it's "defeatable" it's defeated by a pretty rare form of attack. Stoneskin is still popular and though it blocks more per swing, it has an absolute maximum of damage one casting will stop. People still like casting Stoneskin, so a passive DR that is avoided by Adamantine is still useful.

Not to mention if you want the enhancements, it's 12 AP's that need to be spent for an additional 3/adamantine. 12 AP's that another race fighter/paladin/barbarian doesn't have to spend to equal, since they can just throw on a suit of adamantine heavy armor. Where as the warforged has to spend a feat and 2 AP's, or 12 AP's.

I can't argue about the armor that fleshies can use - you are absolutely right. Personally, I think there should be docents that have DR that STACKS with your inherent DR. As for the AP's, you can still get 2 points of it by spending only 6 AP's - a much better bargain. In my opinion, the third tier isn't worth it (though I tend to think that of most Tier III enhancements that cost 6 AP's, regardless of race and class).

The worst thing is that your increased DR doesn't stack with anything since it's passive, not active.

While that's a negatie aspect of being passive, the positive aspect is that you don't need to keep clicking on something to apply your DR and it works an antimagic area and can't be dispelled. As with most abilities, people prefer things that are passive oer active.

It leaves a lot of feats, and AP's I could have put to other uses, offering utility, or trying to mitigate my weaknesses in other areas.

The one I compare it to is Toughness with 6AP's spent on FIghter Toughness II and Warforged Toughness II. That's the same cost - 1 feat and 6 AP's. Most people don't argue with the usefulness of Toughness. In this situation, the feat and the 6AP's of Toughness grant you an extra 59 hit points. Adamantine Body and 2 levels of Improved DR grant you DR 4. So the DR prevents the same amount of damage in 15 hits that Toughness gives you in hit points. Most people take more than 15 hits from shrine to shrine, so to me, the feat + 6AP's is at least as "worth it" as Toughness and the beauty is that a fighter can actually have the feats to spare to acquire both DR and Toughness AND still hae feats to take Combat Expertise and Skill Focus(Intimidate). So a Fighter can go from DPS mode, relying on his hit points from Toughness to stay in the fray long enough (with DR helping) to Intimitank mode, pumping AC with Combat Expertise (and having Toughness AND DR helping).

I see it as a versatile option. Is it so amazing that you HAVE to have it? No. It's just not so bad that you should never consider adding it.

[hu-flung-pu]

You still haven't addressed the point of how expensive it is to purchase 4DR though. You had to spend 12 ap's and a feat or take a feat for arguably the worst armor on a warforged and six AP's to get 4 DR. That's a heavy investment for the benefit of toughness as you laid it out and on feat and enhancement starved classes just isn't a viable option.

You have to also make the choice between toughness OR DR. Most people will take toughness because it's tangible AND cheaper to acquire. The DR is still too expensive to bother considering as a serious alternative or boost. And considering that we have the lowest AC in game on average it really starts to pile the hurt on when we can't mitigate that damage better.

[Junts]

comparing toughness to dr is flawed not only because of large damage per swing monsters in higher level quests, but because the amount of damage dealt by aoe and evadable effects increases massively in those kind of quests, and dr does not help you against fireballs and chainlightnings, but 60 hp from toughness does. It is not that arraetrikos melees for 40-50 a hit that makes people invest 12 ap in toughness lines to get 70 hp - its that his fireballs do 200 a pop, and the end of enter the kobold, etc, where 70 hp is the difference between dying in 3 seconds when hit 3 times or having 40 hp left to recieve a heal afterwords.

Unless you are an evasion build or possess excellent means of mitigating elemental damage (firestorms, cloak of ice, etc), toughness is vastly superior to dr for that reason, and nothing to do with physical hits.

[Thanimal]

Unless you are an evasion build or possess excellent means of mitigating elemental damage (firestorms, cloak of ice, etc), toughness is vastly superior to dr for that reason, and nothing to do with physical hits.

But who doesn't have Evasion? Actually, I'm half serious. With two options for a mere 2-level splash to get Evasion AND Ranger being the DPS of choice lately AND the exact numbers you mentioned, I'd think getting Evasion is probably your first priority (even though I don't have it on one of my DPSes, but she was built before Monk) and THEN make a decision about each of Toughness and DR?

I think the core lesson of your numbers should be: Evasion is much better than either Toughness or DR. But that doesn't necessarily say that DR has low value. (Nor did you state an opinion that it did, so I'm not trying to put words into your mouth. Just clarifying my own thinking on the matter.)

My newest WF DPS will be taking Evasion (Monk 2), Toughness, and fairly high DR! With an almost silly 12 bonus feats from Fighter 18/Monk 2, this option seemed worth an experiment.

[Thanimal]

It's supposed to be the equalizer bonus Warforged have for their lack of AC in game.

Why do you say WF have a lack of AC? I'll admit right away that I have no experience in the end-game, but the numbers I've run haven't shown that. And if I'm wrong about that, I'd like to know!

With the DT docent, a WF ends up with the equivalent of +9 bracers (Composite w/ DT) or +7 Mithral Breastplate (Mithral w/ DT). For those who wear armor, I can only think of how a Dwarf can potentially beat this, by having a big DEX and fully enhancing the max dex bonus. As far as I can tell, the DT armors for fleshies are far inferior to Mithral+DT docent.

For the no-armor build, the WF has the advantage of having the bracer slot available, so can also use Chaosgaurde. A Halfling can do some very good things, too, in this scenario, including +2 from DEX, +1 from WIS (assuming Monk), +1 from Halfling, and +4 from Icy Raiments. But that's only true if willing to simply eat the -2 STR and -4 CON, which is almost never true. I've found a much more realistic guess is just 1 extra point from DEX or WIS. So for things that are different:

Halfling
+1 stat
+1 Halfling
+4 Raiments

WF
+2 Chaosgarde
+2 from DT Docent vs. +7 bracers

Thus the Halfling has 2 more points of AC. But the WF has an advantage that the DT docent can be enhanced with +3 Insight, whereas the Halfling needs to take up the Ring slot (and actually GET a Chattering Ring) in order to get that. So it seems to me that the realistic AC potential of the Halfling is at most "marginally better," and that WF is, at worst, in second place.

Where have I gone wrong in my analysis?

[hu-flung-pu]

I'll provide a class and race breakdown based on equipment and enhancements later on today.