Obsolete Loot

[Angelus_dead]

DOnt agree there.. VON was and still is one of the best quest series ever coded by the dev team. The fact that the kloot at the end isnt as useful at level 16 as it was at level 10 is academic.

What an amazing thing to say.

The fact that it's one of their best quests is the whole reason to update it. VON was originally meant to be played by characters near level cap.

People need to reach the fundamental understanding that endgame is different. You can't simply go to a game designer and tell him to make a quest & items for level X without telling him if the level cap goes beyond X or not.

To help understand this, simply imagine that Turbine had skipped adding VON as part of module 1 and they were building it right now. If VON was a whole new quest chain to be released in mod9, is there any reason they could possibly justify launching it as level 8-10? Of course not.

[Angelus_dead]

On that note, I'll make the controversial statement and say that leveling is too easy in DDO.

It's true that slower leveling would ameliorate the OP's concern, as the window of opportunity for a level 10-14 item to be useful before the character gets to level 15-16 items has been widened. However, the better way to have made leveling slower would have been to reduce the external supply of loot: much of the reason it's easy to go from level 1-10 is you are funded by level 16 characters, even if only indirectly.


PS. That statement looks odd compared to your dislike for XP-cost respec, but I don't go to that thread because it's a waste of electrons.

[Borror0]

DOnt agree there.. VON was and still is one of the best quest series ever coded by the dev team.

That's not the point. If they can make the gameplay better with very little effort, then it's worth putting that little effort.

Whether VoN is a good quest series or not has nothing to do with it, or is an argument in favor of updating it.

If they didnt "Waste" their resorces on lower level stuff how would anyone ever get to end game? SInce most people spend the Majority of their game time Capped, why go back and revamp the Harbor? Most people group so why Make Hirelings?
Less than 10% of the charaters onthe server are Monks so why Bother there?

I never said such a thing. I'm actually arguing the exact opposite by suggesting they should make the leveling experience more interesting.

[Borror0]

That statement looks odd compared to your dislike for XP-cost respec

You think that is contradictory? How is that?

I don't go to that thread because it's a waste of electrons.

I can easily understand why you say this.

[Angelus_dead]

That's not the point. If they can make the gameplay better with very little effort, then it's worth putting that little effort.
Whether VoN is a good quest series or not has nothing to do with it, or is an argument in favor of updating it.

Although updating the quests may be a good idea overall, it would take some real effort.

The alternative would be to look at the less-powerful VON items (Ironweave Robe, Hammer of Life, Delving Goggles, Ring of Silver Concord) and increase their drop rates so you can probably obtain them in just 1-2 runs. That way there's a chance for players to get some use out of them before levelling past them.

[Junts]

DOnt agree there.. VON was and still is one of the best quest series ever coded by the dev team. The fact that the kloot at the end isnt as useful at level 16 as it was at level 10 is academic.

If they didnt "Waste" their resorces on lower level stuff how would anyone ever get to end game? SInce most people spend the Majority of their game time Capped, why go back and revamp the Harbor? Most people group so why Make Hirelings?
Less than 10% of the charaters onthe server are Monks so why Bother there?

Many people do indeed spend a LOT of time between Level 10 and 15. THey use those items for a long time before they can get a replacement.

wow, am i the only player who hates the vons and thinks von6 is the worst-designed raid in the game, including the abbott?

I was exceptionally lucky to pull the kundarak boots on one of my only runs (1 per toon) through the vons; I pity the people who run that raid 20 times for loot. at level, it is by far the least fun raid I have ever run on any character (von6, that is, von5 is fine).

Von2 and 6 are my least-favorite quests in the game, and the chain mechanic is terribly irritating; I'd rather do dq flagging than dragon any time.

I liked the vons when they were the only raid besides ts I had run; as soon as I got to the queen/reaver/shroud/hound, it immediately paled significantly in comparison, and even titan and vod are much more enjoyable (titan was more enjoyable when i didn't know *** was going on).

A raid where the ideal at-level strategy involves 2/3 of the raid party being told to stand in one place and do nothing while the 2 clerics, hero tank and person with haste kill the raidboss is just terrible, ****** design; every other raid has a multitude of important things to do and roles for characters, some more than others, but none to the degree of one-person-matters that is an at-level run of von6 elite.

this is why the shroud and hound are the best-designed raids in the game; they do the best job of creating a role for every party member at every time (and having it be both significant and active). vod isn't too far behind, though too many of the roles are 'hastebot' and 'dps this guy in the back bot'.

the titan manages to involve 6 or so party members (gunner, pillar toppers, 2 crystal runners, pillar dropper); the queen doesn't give melee toons enough to do, but everyone else is quite active. the reaver has the same problem.

[Borror0]

Although updating the quests may be a good idea overall, it would take some real effort.

I wasn't referring to the quest either, but its loot.

I'm in favor of increasing the drop rate of old grinds, old raids, dragonscale armor, tomes, etc.

[Angelus_dead]

wow, am i the only player who hates the vons and thinks von6 is the worst-designed raid in the game, including the abbott?

Careful reading would show that when people praise VON, they're not talking about VON6 in particular.

[Impaqt]

I wasn't referring to the quest either, but its loot.

I'm in favor of increasing the drop rate of old grinds, old raids, dragonscale armor, tomes, etc.

We run Quests every day (Well, We as in Pepole other than you since you don't actually play anymore)that have crappy end rewards and bad loot. The quest is fun. I'd run it even if it didnt have any raid loot in it.

[deepshadow]

Because a Necklace that stops most beholder rays isnt really that good for mid level to capped toon? That scorge Choker isnt that exciting? Or that Docent of Defiance.. Yeah, Pretty lame stuff out there....

You wanna make Old raid gear worth going after? How about when we deconstruct it we get unique crafting components to upgrade our weapons instead of .. Oh wait...... uh, nvm....

This is probably one of the best solutions. Keep the raid loot as is, allow deconstruction of items for 'unique' components and allow them to be combined create new unique items.

[sephiroth1084]

On my up and coming character, Ferrumshot, I tried VoN a few times, with a handful of failures, and by the time I completed the quest, I was level 12 and in the desert and GH. And I don't run him very frequently. If I did, the amount of time it would take, were I completing all of those runs, would have carried me close to the cap.

I say, make the drop-rate for raids a sliding formula using character level, quest level and current cap level in determining the percentage chance for loot to drop. Perhaps use the highest level character in the group for this formula. The output should be, I think, that there is a higher percentage chance to gain items from a raid when you are at or near the level of the quest, and a lower percentage as you go higher. This way, a character at level 10, running VoN with a bunch of people in the 8-11 range will have a better shot at getting an item that will be useful for the next few levels, while that lvl 16 dude trying to get FoM boots will have to work longer to get the item, since the difficulty will have dropped for that character.


Thoughts for justification of the above (so that you don't have to read a wall of text just to get ot my point):
Most individual quests are intended to be a stepping stone to leveling a character, possibly giving them some useful items along the way, but are rarely intended to be enhancing a character in such a way that they demand repeated running of the quest. If someone wants the Mummified Bat out of CO6 they have to run the quest chain a few times (7 on one of my characters...that was a ****ing chore!), but the norm is a lot closer to 1-5 runs for whatever you need from a particular quest (XP, end rewards, favor). Really good named loot in non-raid quests is fairly scarce, and most of it requirs fewer than 10 runs through a quest to obtain it.

Raids do not function in this way. Sure, they offer a chance to run a more complex quest with a large group for a heep of XP, but their loot system is designed to enhance a character. Sure, some of the items are garbage, even for characters below the quest's level, but there are a handful of items in every raid that are very useful to on-level characters, and some that continue to be useful after characters have leveled past the raid.

The VoN series is interesting and varied (and frustrating, and dull--VoN 6), and represents a fair amount of effort from the developers. Far more than most other individual quests represent. Yet the series is run far less, today, than the amount of effort put into it should garner. Should, it had a long shelf life, but now it gets run, what?, 2-3 times by most characters? The chain quests a bit more perhaps for their XP and favor, but not much more because they are a) difficult, and b) restrictive. The raid itself hardly gets run from what I see in LFMs and from my experience in trying to put runs together from lvl 8-12.

[Junts]

Careful reading would show that when people praise VON, they're not talking about VON6 in particular.

I just dont get it; the quests I don't hate are purely eh ..von1, von3 are just like anything else, and von4 is only moderately interesting.

Is von5 all the allure? its the best of the lot, but..

[sephiroth1084]

I just dont get it; the quests I don't hate are purely eh ..von1, von3 are just like anything else, and von4 is only moderately interesting.

Is von5 all the allure? its the best of the lot, but..

Things I like about the quests:

VoN 1
-the arena feel, with spectators, announcer, and waiting rooms for combatants give this quest more verisimilitude than most. I hate running through a quest that is supposed to be a city, camp, arena, tomb or whatever, and yet appears nearly identical to anything else I've run
-there are multiple ways to address some of the quest, that produce varied results

VoN 2
-interesting landscape
-interesting, if annoying, quest design and action-results (an area where beholders don't feel so limited in their abilities, since telekinesis actually has potency here)

VoN 3
-the palpable build-up to the fight at the end, with glimpses of the marut passing nearby, scenes of it fighting, and of the destruction it has left behind (though the fight itself is somewhat disappointing)
-a few interesting areas, like the man-canon and wall into the next area...it's nice to have a quest where everything isn't reachable by walking on the floor or climbing a ladder

VoN 4
-some interesting traps, with some of the most fun interaction with dragging monsters
-a Metroid-style ending, which I think would have been better without the breather just before getting to the door

Too bad we don't have more quests that combine or use these elements.

[Venar]

I say lower reward list to 5 runs for Von, 10 runs for Titan and DQ, and 15 runs for Reaver. Leave Shroud/Vod/Hound at 20 runs. Abbot can kiss my axe.

[GlassCannon]

A different approach would be to leave the # of runs the same, but boost the power of the items and the CR of the quest.

Either way would be better than leaving things as they are now.

This approach is precisely what prevents most of the casual crowd trying loot runs. Too much disappointment and we just forget about it, consider it a lost cause and write off the wasted time as pure loss. We often do not go back until we absolutely have to, and never for that loot.

Open your eyes for a minute dude. It's a game, not a job.

[sephiroth1084]

I say lower reward list to 5 runs for Von, 10 runs for Titan and DQ, and 15 runs for Reaver. Leave Shroud/Vod/Hound at 20 runs. Abbot can kiss my axe.

While this is far simpler than my idea and accomplishes a similar goal, it makes it very very easy to obtain certain items that capped characters desire. Now, that may not be a bad thing, but it is something to think about.

I'd wager than many people would still skip over the Titan and DQ at level and start farming it once they're at around 14-16 for the items they want. Then, when the cap goes to 20, what do we do with the new raids? The old raids? Would it be reasonable for the totals to go down as the cap goes up and new raids come up? Will it be reasonable, when we're level 20, to be having to farm the Hound still at 20 runs?

I think perhaps adjusting the percentage chance for loot to drop based on character or party level, with those closer to the quest's level having a higher percentage chance of items dropping, is a decent solution. The devs could even adjust individual items, say, if they felt something was really good, it could have a lower percentage drop rate (as things like the Chattering Ring, Head of Good Fortune, and Levik's Shield appear to have), but still higher than the rate is now.

Even 5 VoN runs...it is very possible to be out of the immediate level range by the time you finish 5 runs. Assuming you start at level 8, that's 15 days, or 2 weeks of gameplay to go up to level 14 (4 above the level of the quest). Some people don't level that swiftly, but those are also the people less likely to run a quest repeatedly (particularly for something that will become out moded shortly).

[Kromize]

Heh. I remember back when the mace of smiting was sought after. Man it was something if you pulled one of those. I mean, a chance to kill a construct on a crit?!

[Aesop]

So how about a Raid once the Cap is 20 that has an upgrade crafting.

its early so I may just be a little doppy still, but...


Picture soemthing like the Shroud but instead of crafting new gear you are taking old gear and upgrading it. This would only work on Named Bound Loot however.

So you could upgrade The VoN Sword of Shadows or Retribution or the Marilithe Chain or hell Blackwidow Bracers, but not the +1 Vorpal or Trapblast Goggles.

Suddenly the Sword of Shadows becomes
+5
18-20 x3 crit
Adamantine
Vampiric
Vorpal

retiribution could become
+5
Transmuting
True Law
Holy Burst
Pure Good

Blackwidow Bracers could become +8 Armor Greater False Life

something like that...

I know too crazy like

Aesop

[Kromize]

Picture soemthing like the Shroud but instead of crafting new gear you are taking old gear and upgrading it. This would only work on Named Bound Loot however.

Erm. I think this game needs to move away from named and crafted loot... That stuff is gettin too crazy and puttin holes in the games economy...let alone and chest pulled loot other than puncturing and enfeebling stuff...

[VirieSquichie]

Erm. I think this game needs to move away from named and crafted loot... That stuff is gettin too crazy and puttin holes in the games economy...let alone and chest pulled loot other than puncturing and enfeebling stuff...

Actually, I feel exactly the opposite. Named loot that can only possibly come from one place and has a unique feature not attainable any other way is phenomenal stuff.

Random loot table stuff that is more powerful than a named artifact is just wrong. Stuff you can build (shroud/DT) shouldn't be as powerful as an artifact but should be nearly competitive to random loot...you're trading the precision of picking your item attributes as a trade-off to having to farm the ingredients/components/materials involved in the crafting. The idea that you should have to re-run the same exact storyline many times to make an item...lame.

I don't feel there is a rational reason why we should have to run a given raid dozens of times to get the loot, however...not only does it break the storytelling to repeat the exact same adventure (let alone dozens of times...who's getting into the plane of night to raise that dragon each time and where can I find him/her to kill him/her?) but it's also a horrible grind reminiscent of the worst parts of other MMO's and RPG's.

If the named loot was restricted so two of an artifact couldn't drop in the same instance, but otherwise the drop rates were significantly increased, it'd make a lot more sense. The fact that anyone can do the same stinking quest 20 times and still not get the item they've been grinding for all along is bunk. And supposedly having half the raid loot pop in the 20th end reward, but somehow particular items hardly ever come up for particular characters (you know, the ones who would actually use 'em...) so if someone feels they really need something in particular they could have to run that raid until the servers shut down...there's absolutely no reason to believe the item will ever actually drop for them, and plenty of historical evidence that the item isn't likely to.

I'm not even going to go into the design issues of the end-raid minidungeons here...