Mod 9 Monk 17-20 gives ???

[Arkat]

Epic DR should be penetrated by numerous kinds of Bane weapons already in DDO

No!!!

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=49


This is the THIRD time I've pointed out your error. Please read, learn, and correct your understanding of what qualifies as an "Epic" weapon.

[sephiroth1084]

These look pretty cool. Might regret taking that 1 level of rogue on Bruucelee now... Eladrin, I like this whole 'chiming in with useful and interesting information' thing that's been going on lately. Thanks!

A few comments:

-Shadowwalk can be a useful spell for healers, since there are some spells that do not bring it down, though I cannot imagine it being very useful for monks. When implemented, I assume it will require Ki to activate? Could you please make it a small amount of Ki, so that it may be used frequently?

-Epic DR is not bypassed by Bane weapons. Their effective enhancement bonus may be higher, but they are not epic. I also don't know where the comment about paragon creatures bypassing epic DR comes from. I thought 'paragon' was from Unearthed Arcana, and was basically racial substitution levels.

[Maegin]

These look pretty cool. Might regret taking that 1 level of rogue on Bruucelee now... Eladrin, I like this whole 'chiming in with useful and interesting information' thing that's been going on lately. Thanks!

A few comments:

-Shadowwalk can be a useful spell for healers, since there are some spells that do not bring it down, though I cannot imagine it being very useful for monks. When implemented, I assume it will require Ki to activate? Could you please make it a small amount of Ki, so that it may be used frequently?

-Epic DR is not bypassed by Bane weapons. Their effective enhancement bonus may be higher, but they are not epic. I also don't know where the comment about paragon creatures bypassing epic DR comes from. I thought 'paragon' was from Unearthed Arcana, and was basically racial substitution levels.

Ya, definatly cool to get feedback from the devs on a consistant rate As for the low ki cost, good call!

I think artk and A_D covered the whole 'epic' damage thing pretty clearly.

Yo eladrin, any thoughts on this?

[Angelus_dead]

-Epic DR is not bypassed by Bane weapons. Their effective enhancement bonus may be higher, but they are not epic.

Wrong.

What part of "effective enhancement bonus" makes you think it doesn't have the effects of an enhancement bonus?

[KLBen]

Speaking as one who has a capped monk?


YAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!


Ahem, sorry, couldn't help myself.

[Arkat]

Wrong.

What part of "effective enhancement bonus" makes you think it doesn't have the effects of an enhancement bonus?

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=49

[Angelus_dead]

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=49

No, you are wrong, as is completely obvious if you read the rules:
1. A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus.
2. A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus.

[SteeleTrueheart]

No, you are wrong, as is completely obvious if you read the rules:
1. A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus.
2. A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus.

Sorry A_D but that is not true.

It is pretty clear in the Epic Level Handbook that the +6 enhancement bonus must come from a SINGLE special ability to classify as epic, not from a combination of 2 non-epic enhancements.

In other words the weapon must have a base +6 enhancement (ie a plain +6 longsword) or a special ability that is itself a +6 equivalent enhancement (ie fiery blast, mighty disruption etc).

[redoubt]

Timeless Body
Prereqs: Level 17 Monk
Benefit: Your soul is balanced. No corrupt influences can possess your body after death - you are immune to the spawn effect of most undead.

Empty Body
Prereqs: Level 19 Monk
Benefit: You are able to focus your ki and walk the edge of the Plane of Shadow, mimicing the effects of a Shadow Walk spell. While this effect is active, you move much faster than normal and your outline appears faint and you are harder to hit. Attacking another creature or otherwise interacting with objects shunts you back to the Material Plane.

Perfect Self
Prereqs: Level 20 Monk
Benefit: You have transcended your former race, and are now considered a Lawful Outsider. You have gained damage reduction 10 / epic. Warforged retain most living construct traits.

Perfect Slow Fall
Prereqs: Level 20 Monk
Benefit: You take no damage from falls of any height.

So if i'm not halfling anymore, do i lose things like +1 AC for being a halfling?

[Angelus_dead]

It is pretty clear in the Epic Level Handbook that the +6 enhancement bonus must come from a SINGLE special ability to classify as epic, not from a combination of 2 non-epic enhancements.

Wrong. What I posted above was not my interpretation or paraphrasing or something; it is the exact two rules from the D&D book, copied and pasted. Do you agree or disagree with the rule that DR/epic is beaten by an enhancement bonus of +6? Do you agree or disagree with the rule that Bane increases enhancement bonus by +2?

In other words the weapon must have a base +6 enhancement (ie a plain +6 longsword) or a special ability that is itself a +6 equivalent enhancement (ie fiery blast, mighty disruption etc).

That is even more wrong. A +1 Fiery Blast Dagger does not count as epic for the purpose of DR/epic.

[sephiroth1084]

Yeah, A_D, you're off on this one. Look at the intent of the rules, if not the rules themselves (which I feel are clear, but obviously are not necessarily so):

Should a character, under normal D&D rules, at ~lvl 12 gain a +4 Bane weapon (+5 weapon), be able to bypass the DR of a level 21+ monster?

The effective enhancement is for attack and damage, not bypassing DR. The weapon's actual enhancement bonus has to be +6 or better in order to do so. This makes sense, since only epic characters may obtain a +6 weapon, as per epic rules.

Also, the comment about being good at striking a creature is a non-issue, since the Bane property has nothing to do with DR of any sort. It hurts more, but if you fight a monster with DR 15/whatever with a +1 bane weapon, you'll likely be doing almost 0 damage to it, again, because Bane weapons do not interact directly with DR.

[Arkat]

Wrong. What I posted above was not my interpretation or paraphrasing or something; it is the exact two rules from the D&D book, copied and pasted. Do you agree or disagree with the rule that DR/epic is beaten by an enhancement bonus of +6? Do you agree or disagree with the rule that Bane increases enhancement bonus by +2?

DISAGREE. Bane is a Special Ability that provides Market Price Modifier to determine cost. Sure, it may provide a situational enhancement bonus but that enhancement bonus is NOT used to determine its cost, its Market Price Modifier does.

True "Enhancement" bonuses are determined separately and then added to the Special Ability Market Price Modifier to determine the final cost.


That is even more wrong. A +1 Fiery Blast Dagger does not count as epic for the purpose of DR/epic.[/QUOTE]



WRONG.

Here are the rules:

Incorrect. Enhancement bonuses ONLY include the "+" of the weapon. The extra stuff like Greater Reptillian Bane is a "Special Ability" that is given a Market Price Modifier "Bonus". I do not believe Greater Banes count as a +6 (or better) Market Price Modifier Bonus.

A weapon must satisfy one of three conditions to be considered "Epic."

1) It must have a +6 enhancement bonus or better. That is it must be +6 to hit and +6 to damage or better.

or

2) It must have and Enhancement bonus of at least +1 AND a Market Price Modifier Bonus of at least +6. That is the weapon must be at least +1 to hit and +1 to damage and have an Epic Special Ability such as Distant Shot (a +6 Market Price Modifier Bonus) or Dread (a +7 Market Price Modifier Bonus). Once again I do not believe Greater Banes count as a +6 (or better) Market Price Modifier Bonus considering regular Bane (not lesser bane) counts as a +1 Market Price Modifier Bonus.

or

3) Must be worth OVER 200,000 GP not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component, experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.


See Epic Magic Weapons starting on page 1 of the SRD and then more details on weapons specifically starting on page 7 here:

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35...agicItems1.rtf

The rules are in that link. READ THEM!!!

Oh screw it. Here they are from the SRD:



Page one from the link above:

While not truly an artifact, the epic magic item is a creation of such power that it surpasses other magic items. Epic magic items are objects of great power and value. The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item.
• Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5.
• Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5.
• Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5.
• Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus).
• Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5.
• Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.
• Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.
• Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.
• Has a caster level above 20th.
• Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.
An epic magic item that grants a bonus beyond those allowed for normal magic items has a higher market price than indicated by the formulas for non-epic items.
Epic magic items are not artifacts. They are not unique, though they are certainly very rare, and anyone with the proper item creation feats can build them. Even an epic magic item can never grant a dodge bonus, and the maximum inherent bonus that can be applied to an ability score is +5. An epic magic item cannot be created that uses or mimics an epic spell. A major artifact might be able to mimic such a spell, however.

Stuff from Page 7 from the link above:

EPIC WEAPON BASE PRICE
To find the base price of an epic magic weapon, roll on Table: Weapons. Note that the +6 to +10 rows apply only to weapons that provide an enhancement bonus of +6 to +10 or weapons with a single special ability whose market price modifier is +6 to +10. Magic weapons with a total effective bonus of +6 to +10 but that have an enhancement bonus of +5 or less and special abilities whose individual market price modifiers are +5 or less use the table for nonepic magic weapons to determine price.

Fiery Blast counts as a "single special ability whose market price modifier is +6 to +10"




As far as the +1 Fiery Blast dagger goes, here's the description:

Fiery Blast
On command, a fiery blast weapon is sheathed in fire (though this deals no damage to the wielder). On any hit, this fire engulfs the creature struck, dealing +3d6 points of bonus fire damage. On a successful critical hit it instead deals +6d6 points of fire damage (or +9d6 if the critical multiplier is ×3, or +12d6 if the critical multiplier is ×4). Bows, crossbows, and slings with this special ability bestow the bonus fire damage upon their ammunition.

Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor , fireball; Market Price: +6 bonus.

Why would you need an Epic feat to craft a supposed non-epic weapon A_D???

[vyvy3369]

The examples seem to indicate that effective enhancement bonuses DO actually matter though - take the description of Dread from the ELH:

A dread weapon excels at attacking one type of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +4 better than its normal enhancement bonus (so a +3 dread longsword is a +7 longsword against its foe)...

Not that it counts as a +7 longsword in terms of attack/damage/whatever, it IS a +7 weapon vs. that foe.

Edit: Re: Arkat: The "rules" you link to speak of what "in general" makes an item epic.

[Angelus_dead]

WRONG.
Here are the rules.
The rules are in that link. READ THEM!!!

I don't see the words "Damage Reduction" or "DR" anywhere in that quotation; maybe you should work harder to actually find the rules that apply.

Alternatively, you could read your own quotation and look for the section with "It must have a +6 enhancement bonus", and then explain why you think a weapon with a +6 enhancement bonus does not have a +6 enhancement bonus.

[RobbinB]

Assuming it's like pen and paper, epic weapons and epic monsters whose attacks count as epic. In other words, everything designed for level 20's and below would not bypass the DR. But probably some things above 20 too.

Hopefully, lots of things above 20. In fact, why not just make it flat out dr 10. It will be the very high level mobs/bosses that this dr is needed against, you know, the ones that laugh at your 80 ac and still hit you most of the time for a heck of a lot more than 10 pts of damage. Low level mobs aren't much of a concern for a monk, since they almost never hit you.

[Angelus_dead]

Yeah, A_D, you're off on this one. Look at the intent of the rules, if not the rules themselves (which I feel are clear, but obviously are not necessarily so):

No, the intent of the rules exactly supports me: A bane weapon allows a character to have an item that is much more powerful than otherwise affordable, but only against a limited kind of opponent.

Should a character, under normal D&D rules, at ~lvl 12 gain a +4 Bane weapon (+5 weapon), be able to bypass the DR of a level 21+ monster?

A +4 Bane weapon is not affordable to a level 12 character by the D&D rules. However, in the spectacularly unlikely event the level 12 character was fighting a level 21 monster, and he had enough planning ahead to build a weapon for that specific purpose which he can't even afford, and he actually survived level 21 attacks long enough to make a swing, and he actually hit level 21 AC....

Then given all that, he deserves to beat its DR. This will make the epic monster even more angry at him, and it will proceed to kill him even faster.

[Balkas]

Wrong. What I posted above was not my interpretation or paraphrasing or something; it is the exact two rules from the D&D book, copied and pasted. Do you agree or disagree with the rule that DR/epic is beaten by an enhancement bonus of +6? Do you agree or disagree with the rule that Bane increases enhancement bonus by +2?

I see it kind of like this.

You have two cars.

One is a Mercedes. The other is a KIA.

You buy separately all the innards in your Mercedes and put them in your KIA.

Your KIA is "effectively" a Mercedes, but it's not "actually" a Mercedes.

You're not magically turning your Greater Bane into an epic weapon.

/endofhorrendouslyconvolutedexplanation

Whee semantics.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Wrong. What I posted above was not my interpretation or paraphrasing or something; it is the exact two rules from the D&D book, copied and pasted. Do you agree or disagree with the rule that DR/epic is beaten by an enhancement bonus of +6? Do you agree or disagree with the rule that Bane increases enhancement bonus by +2?


That is even more wrong. A +1 Fiery Blast Dagger does not count as epic for the purpose of DR/epic.

You do realise that you quoted the epic weapon page? Therefore you specifically show that a +1 Fiery Blast Dagger is and Epic Weapon. So I am right and you are wrong.

To be specific:

EPIC WEAPON BASE PRICE
To find the base price of an epic magic weapon, roll on Table: Weapons. Note that the +6 to +10 rows apply only to weapons that provide an enhancement bonus of +6 to +10 or weapons with a single special ability whose market price modifier is +6 to +10. Magic weapons with a total effective bonus of +6 to +10 but that have an enhancement bonus of +5 or less and special abilities whose individual market price modifiers are +5 or less use the table for nonepic magic weapons to determine price.

So unless your bane weapon has other properties that bring the total modifier for the weapons abilities to greater than +10 you weapon is not an epic weapon.

[Angelus_dead]

You do realise that you quoted the epic weapon page? Therefore you specifically show that a +1 Fiery Blast Dagger is and Epic Weapon. So I am right and you are wrong.

You will continue to be wrong until you read the rules. I won't reply to anyone else who hasn't read the rules.

[SteeleTrueheart]

You will continue to be wrong until you read the rules. I won't reply to anyone else who hasn't read the rules.

I understand what you are trying to say A_D so I am going to find some info....
Found - http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1094029

When is my weapon considered epic?

A weapon is considered epic for the purpose of defeating damage reduction X/epic only if it has a +6 enhancement bonus or higher. A weapon with an effective enhancement bonus of +6 against certain monsters (such as a +4 aberration bane longsword against aberrations) also defeats this type of damage reduction. However, any weapon with more than a +10 total bonus, or an ability with an effective bonus of more than +5, uses epic pricing charts.


A-D is correct on bane principles, you have my apologies.

I also still know that a +1 Fiery Blast weapon is epic.