Why DDO is on a down ward spireral and how to fix it.

[BlackSteel]

I disagree with you about the best loot can be dropped randomly when compared to shroud weapons...but if you eliminate shroud weapons then not only do random loot becomes more important but a bigger variety becomes more important.
.

take for example a +3 holy silver greataxe of greater evil outsider bane (a +7 axe, so 13.5 avg base, with 5d6 extra dice). Now compare that to common shroud boss beaters. Mineral 2, 15.5 average base with only 2d6 applicable elemental damage to the pit fiend or VoD boss, along with 1d2 slicing. The greater bane does about 8 more damage a swing.

Mobs would still be balanced towards a weapon like this, but shroud weapons allow everyone a chance to have a nice all purpose weapon, and still be competitive to the lucky or rich player with super bane weapons.

Everyone can get a shroud weapon with a little effort, very few people can land a real beauty of a greater bane or awesome stat damager

[Lymnus]

By the way, the graph was win.
Check it out. Toontown has more subscriptions than us.

[Tilliak]

I agree 100% along with the repec thread. For me MOD 9 is a make or break MOD. Diablo 3 will be coming out soon, if not at the same time as MOD 9, and their website looks very promising. MOD 7 and 8 for me, the casual player, flopped HARD (not to mention MOD 8 came out half finished i.e. Hirelings), I have no time to constantly grind for things, it's mindless and boring. If MOD 9 isn't way better than average, I will be moving on. And if it flops I will put money on 3 or less servers by the end of the year. But that's just my opinion that I have discussed with many others and they have agreed. *crosses Fingers* I love playing DDO, but when I have to do the same thing 80 times. I'm glad I shave my head.

Let's keep in mind that while Diablo 3 might be competing with DDO for you TIME, it is not competing with DDO on any other level. The two games aren't even in the same classification. If you are a casual gamer, it is more likely that your time will be spent playing Diablo 3 since it really requires no thought to play and you can get in plenty of slashing fun in under an hour. DDO is not that kind of game and to do most quests from front to back will require you to commit to at least 1.5 to 4 hours of time. But this is fairly normal for MMOs in general, of which Diablo 3 is NOT.

I've heard many things about Diablo 3. So many people are wanting it and claiming it to be the end all of games that I believe it may have the following additional effects:

1.) Will stop your shoe laces from breaking.

2.) Stop your icecream from going all melty.

3.) All dull pencils in the vicinity of Diablo 3 will automatically be sharpened.

4.) May or may not chase children around in your front yard with a snow blower while cooking meth in your bathtub. Online experiences may vary.

If you want to compare Diablo 3 to another game, at least keep it on the same level. Smart things to say would be, "I think Diablo 3 will be better than Sacred 2." Or, "Diablo 3 will totally blow away Hellgate London!" Wrong statements would be, "Diablo 3 is going to be so much better than WoW!" Or, "Diablo 3 is going to have much better game play than Fallout 3!" These are wrong because you can not compare the games since they have absolutely nothing in common. Diablo has more in common with Doom than it has with DDO or any other MMO.

[swooshrp]

take for example a +3 holy silver greataxe of greater evil outsider bane (a +7 axe, so 13.5 avg base, with 5d6 extra dice). Now compare that to common shroud boss beaters. Mineral 2, 15.5 average base with only 2d6 applicable elemental damage to the pit fiend or VoD boss, along with 1d2 slicing. The greater bane does about 8 more damage a swing.

Mobs would still be balanced towards a weapon like this, but shroud weapons allow everyone a chance to have a nice all purpose weapon, and still be competitive to the lucky or rich player with super bane weapons.

Everyone can get a shroud weapon with a little effort, very few people can land a real beauty of a greater bane or awesome stat damager

Exactly! The weapon you use as an example is a very rare item and even more rare that all 9-10 of your melees would be carrying such an item. And since a raid, for example is based on the abilities of such a group, you wouldn't have to develop quests around that rarity.


Also, having the chance to loot one of these rare weapons adds interest in rerunning quests, thats essentially what loot running is. Another point I mention. Introducing shroud weapons has defeated any value out of the old common practice of loot running...at least in terms of weapons. Now its W/P that is the valued weaponry, and already we have people speculating a nerf to happen because of the dependence of W/P.

I understand your point of how shroud crafting has allowed everyone to get personalized gear that suits their needs, but at what cost to the overall end game and beyond. I love the shroud for what it is, but can't condone the effects it has and will have in the future of this game.

[xman26]

I know if my con goes down to 0 I die, if my Str goes down to 0 I'm helpless, so if my con goes to 0 can I not die if they nerf W/P cause of con damage vs.. lets say an enemies cloud kill? Cloud kill being the same as W/P from a casters stand point.

I think as far as the "casual gamer" is concerned, did you guys not read anything about the item damage/no xp loss when dying mod? That was to support the "casual gamer" because they whined on the forums so much about not being able to make xp back when all they had to do was log another toon that wasn't in xp debt and play that one.. why.. because no one realised you REGEN'd xp if you were online or not

I'm tired, it's almost 3am here, but I just wanted to put my 2 copper in somewhere..

I'm a casual gamer as Delt and several others can attest to and I have never whined about the XP penalty, Hell I wanted that system(still do) over the existing BS we have now!

[branmakmuffin]

I'm a casual gamer as Delt and several others can attest to and I have never whined about the XP penalty, Hell I wanted that system(still do) over the existing BS we have now!

Yes. The existing BS is more for the power gamer than the casual gamer, because power gamers' characters die more. As it is, players just zerg on through hazards with little care for their characters dying, because the death "penalty" is virtually nothing.

[swooshrp]

Yes. The existing BS is more for the power gamer than the casual gamer, because power gamers' characters die more. As it is, players just zerg on through hazards with little care for their characters dying, because the death "penalty" is virtually nothing.

the best approach would be capped toons have item damage and toons below capped are XP penalties.

[branmakmuffin]

the best approach would be capped toons have item damage and toons below capped are XP penalties.

I'm not sure why capped characters should have item damage and less-than-capped should have XP loss. DDO should just go back to the XP loss, period.

[swooshrp]

I'm not sure why capped characters should have item damage and less-than-capped should have XP loss. DDO should just go back to the XP loss, period.

The XP loss for capped characters is counter productive. Once capped you wouldnt care if you loss any XP, you're capped already. You can't delevel so its pointless for capped players to worry about XP. At the rate of increased level mods, expecially seeing 20 is right around the corner, players will easily have enough time to catch up, gained XP always outwieghing loss from death unless they are really bad. Most of the time, the rest of group would carry them through if they were that bad.

[branmakmuffin]

The XP loss for capped characters is counter productive. Once capped you wouldnt care if you loss any XP, you're capped already. You can't delevel so its pointless for capped players to worry about XP. At the rate of increased level mods, expecially seeing 20 is right around the corner, players will easily have enough time to catch up, gained XP always outwieghing loss from death unless they are really bad. Most of the time, the rest of group would carry them through if they were that bad.

Well, then, I guess it does make sense.

[Junts]

Well, then, I guess it does make sense.

By the way, I think you underestimate 'powergamer' characters; ones like Magi who you are consistently disparaging for their extremely fast leveling, etc, are in fact not dying frequently in doing so. The people who die the most fall into one of two categories:

#1: still learning game, character or quest
#2: think they are awesome, but are in fact far probably far from it.

The second frequently think they are powergamers and join pugs and zerg a lot and die, but they don't have much in common with a real powerleveled character belonging to a very good player.

About all you would see with a renewed exp penalty is less explorer area soloing by still-leveling characters, and a lot less of people running quests that feature mobs more likely to case death- for example, in a renewed exp debt game, people are likely to spend a lot more time in gianthold and not use the Vault of Night serise as a leveling run, becasue beholders are far more likely to kill characters at-level than most other monsters are. People can and still will run quests like Trial by Fire very quickly in the same level ranges, because the quest features very little death risk.

Further, that kind of system is very likely to encourage more short-manning and use of hirelings by experienced players, since most party wipes in difficult quests are caused by people pulling more aggro than they should at the wrong times, and the best way to avoid that is to not bring anyone who doesn't know the quest inside and out along.

[Drwaz99]

Let's keep in mind that while Diablo 3 might be competing with DDO for you TIME, it is not competing with DDO on any other level. The two games aren't even in the same classification. If you are a casual gamer, it is more likely that your time will be spent playing Diablo 3 since it really requires no thought to play and you can get in plenty of slashing fun in under an hour. DDO is not that kind of game and to do most quests from front to back will require you to commit to at least 1.5 to 4 hours of time. But this is fairly normal for MMOs in general, of which Diablo 3 is NOT.

I've heard many things about Diablo 3. So many people are wanting it and claiming it to be the end all of games that I believe it may have the following additional effects:

1.) Will stop your shoe laces from breaking.

2.) Stop your icecream from going all melty.

3.) All dull pencils in the vicinity of Diablo 3 will automatically be sharpened.

4.) May or may not chase children around in your front yard with a snow blower while cooking meth in your bathtub. Online experiences may vary.

If you want to compare Diablo 3 to another game, at least keep it on the same level. Smart things to say would be, "I think Diablo 3 will be better than Sacred 2." Or, "Diablo 3 will totally blow away Hellgate London!" Wrong statements would be, "Diablo 3 is going to be so much better than WoW!" Or, "Diablo 3 is going to have much better game play than Fallout 3!" These are wrong because you can not compare the games since they have absolutely nothing in common. Diablo has more in common with Doom than it has with DDO or any other MMO.

*I ended up going off course a bit, due to medication for a illness that makes me a little scattered, sorry for the length or if it hard to read*

I think you mis-interpreted my post. I wasn't trying to compare Diablo to DDO (nor any other game for that fact), you are correct they are vastly different genres of games. I really ahve now clue how Diablo will turn out, the website is good, but anyone with enough money can have a good website. I was just saying for ME, MOD 9 is a break point. And I think that it may very well be too for others as well as if it goes the same ways of mod 7 and 8. I used Diablo as an example as it is a game that will come out in the same relative time frame as mod 9 and many people who play DDO have also played Diablo.

That being said DDO does "cater" to the power gamer that can put the hours in. The the definition of a casual gamer is someone that plays when they can, but it may not be a lot of hours. If I have to spend 40 hours grinding to move on, I myself get bored. I don't think the developers of DDO should change it to retain the casual people like me, but maybe make it a tad less time committing and the result is that you will retain the casual player.. I can deal with the long quests (actually I love them, Von 3 rates as my favorite).

I could name 5 things that would not hurt DDO, not change the dynamics, but encourage the retention of the people like me. I didn't list them as it's irrelevant because one of the top problems I believe DDO has is the lack of the Development Team listening to the player base. It's a well documented fact. (i.e. Hirelings, where did this come from? I did not see any request for them or for helping people who solo, I can see if it was to help those late at night, but I play late at night and yes you do have to wait a bit longer, but I have never quit the game due to not being able to find people. Another thing, Korthos, nice, yes, necessary compared to other things, no) that time could have solved many bugs, added much more content, reconfigured the enhancements system, things that the paying player wants. They need to stop thinking they know what we wantm without looking at the forums where it stares them in the face.

If they cannot make a game that caters to two different style of gaming, they shouldn't have the job. There are many programmers and developers out of work that are able to do this. It's not a hard thing to do. I have degree(s) and a masters in business, so I promise I am not just making things up. (Too bad I have a terminal illness (at 28) and I am on disability or maybe I could help out, and I do have the time to put the hours (I said I didn't have time, but I don't like to advertise I am very sick, but this I feels this thread needs to said) is as I basically cannot leave my house, but the end game grind has gotten to the point of ridiculousness IMHO, if I wanted that I would play another game). So bad for me in fact I deleted all but 2 toons that are above 12 and started new ones, it refreshing to do different things again.

They were able to make 90% of the game without having to include grinding (some is fine, it depends on the story line, but don't create a story line around grinding), so you know higher levels can be made without having to constantly do the same thing, to me it's a quick fix to get Mods out faster without having to think things through. You could have easily made quests to find the items needed (just like merida).

I will add though, if it's not the decision of the Developers and the changes have come from hire up the ladder, I do apologize for the comments that I have made, but maybe instead of saying yes, sir don't be afraid to speak up. The Development Section of the forums is a plethora of idea and information and the forums are full of people that have unbelievable knowledge of the game and it's concepts and how to apply them in a virtual world.

Somehow I really got off topic, but I do care for DDO (otherwse why would I write a mini novel, DDo is my first MMO, I was a huge FPS guy first) and I really love the content until you get to the Shroud. One idea is, Merida quests (which should be looked at so the can't be just blazed through by sorcs and such, make it so you need at least a few in the party) on normal drop the weapon ing and small ingredients, hard should drop weapon ing, and medium ing, Elite, weapon ing and large ingredients (and maybe make it so only scales can drop in the shroud). You don't ahve to add them with a high drop rate, but just knowing you COULD get them, makes a world of difference. By doing that you change quest that were just flagging quest to get the darn stone(s) and weapon ing. to quests that can be re-ran, it makes it easier to get more stones to make more items and you still have all the incentive to run the shroud (scales and shards and altars.) And by doing that you have taken a grind (shroud ans spread it around to 5-6 different quests. Problem solved. And casual gamers don't have to beg and plead for someone to help them though Coalescence Chamber. Causal gets what they want Power Gamers are able to help and get rewarded at the same time.

Ok enough from me as I am blabbering, as I said in the disclaimer. that comes from the meds I have to take for my illness. Sorry it's so long. I just don't want to see only 2 servers in a year. I want to see 10.

[Voalkrynn2]

I find the economic part of the game very entertaining and I know many other players who agree. I think the AH was one of the best additions to the game. I enjoy pulling/buying something rare and valuable that I can use or give away to a friend or guild when they say " i been looking for a ____ for a while to you have one" and making there day.

The economy is one pieces of the DDO puzzle of the many pieces that I enjoy.

Let's be friends. Do you have some Blue Dragon Scales to trade?

[osirisisis]

Let's be friends. Do you have some Blue Dragon Scales to trade?

lol

[Drinkin]

I'm gonna start off by saying I haven't read the entire thread so If I say a few things that have already been said I appologize. I think you have a lot of the right Ideas about what is wrong but I think you're wrong about how to fix it in some ways.

I think that the best way to fix it instead of having disrupters drop less freequently would be to make improved disruption, greater disruption, and superior disruption. For each of these increases the level required goes up by 4 so that superior disruption would be lvl 20 rr making them extremely rare. then increase the save needed by 3-5 per level that way the higher level disrupters will be more effective. This idea could be applied to smiters, banishers, vorpals, and paralyzers as well. Also they just need new ideas in general. The superior bane weapons good idea 10d6 maybe a little too much if they're going to nerf mob hps but if they continue to go up at their current rate not at all too much. In fact I would say that if we went from having 400-600 hp mobs in the vale to having 1000-2000 hp mobs in the refuge. What's in mod 9? Mobs with 3000 + hp if that's the case 10d6 might be too low. Weapons of slaying and greater slaying we've had the arrows for a very long time why not weapons. Maybe making weapons that proc earthgrab or fireball not as a shroud item who knows. But the point is when we have to do the same one quest over and over and over and over to get our good items it's boring!!

I don't think that crafting is bad at all I think grinding keeps some people around and random loot keeps other people around. Although I would like to see a raid token system put in maybe every 5 times you complete you get a raid token and you get a 25% chance every time you open a chest then make it so you can buy the raid loot with tokens. the better the item the more tokens you need make it 15+ tokens for a +3 tome then by run 75 you will have that tome for sure.

Just one more bit on the reducing the drops of the power 5 it would make the value of those that are already out there go up therefore increasing the gap between the power gamer and the casual. This would be a huge mistake!!

I'm personally having as much fun as I ever did but you're very right about the loot tables, despite what the trolls are saying.

I wonder if putting Shroud ingredients and (especially) DT runes into the general loot table would both decrease grind and put the old thrill of opening chests back in the game.

Come to think of it I remember a thread now about putting old named items (like tome pages) into the general loot table - again not a bad idea to make all the non-Shroud chests actually exciting to open once more.

This is a great idea. Even if it was like a 2-5% drop rate smalls drop out of chests from lvl 1 to lvl 10 med from 11-16 and larges from 16+

[osirisisis]

This is the most spot on statement I've read here. The fact is the agonizingly slow development of this game is what is sinking it. When I read that Turbine had gotten the rights for Lord of the Rings Online, I knew at that moment that it was going to be very tough for DDO to succeed. Turbine has put 10 times the amount of effort into LOTRO than it has DDO. Over 3 years the game has been out and we have received ONE CLASS addition(MONK) and One New Race (DROW). Now, I don't know about you, but this is completely unacceptable as a fan of D&D. It is apparent that Turbine feels that LOTRO is their long term "keeper" because of the success of the movie bandwagon. Until they are willing to give it an honest go, then no change in the loot table, or new content is going to change the fact that we are just BORED to TEARS doing the same quests over and over. I left for 8 months and just came back about a month ago. I must say it was a good thing I did, because if I had not, I would be playing something else right now, for sure. My loyalty to the D&D brand has kept me around this long, I dare say, MOD 9 better be stunningly innovative. If not, I fear the downward spiral will continue, mirroring our economy and heading into oblivion.

I agree the more Content, races, classes, and dept the better. Content is another weak organ in the game that needs attention. Its a catch 22 tho. Turbine needs more subscriptions (money) to heir my people to make fast expansion to content.

With the loot table its easy tho and doesn't take nearly as much time or cost as making new content.
1. DO NOT NUFF W/P.
2. introduce improved power 5's
3. introduce superior bane.
4. remove the prefix suffix rule to make vorpal-para, and greater undead bane disruptor etc.

With some simple changes new great life would be sparked back into the loot table and there is a good chance that population would increase like in the good old giants and CO6 days, and for little cost for turbine. Subscriptions would improve and there would be more money for faster expansions of new content.

[osirisisis]

I've logged in a lot of time in this game. As a christmas present in about a month, I leveled up a character to a friend's (casual in every sense of the word) character concept on his account to cap, with 1750 favor, two third tier greensteel items (item and weapon), a dwarven thrower, paralyzing of maiming, +5 transmuter, vorpal, disruptor, banisher... 3 +2 tomes, bloodstone, 2 optic nerves, fully upgraded silver flame necklace, +5 mithril tower shield, +5 blueshine mithril fullplate. (My wife was taking care of her grandmother for a couple months at that time and I was free to do what I wanted with my time)

My point is, for me personally, ddo can be a blast despite the grind of repetition. However, anything that might make the repetition take longer (quest-raid failure/lack of dps-ac-hp/partywipe/afk) or require even more repetition of a different sort (loot runs to replenish the cash dump that tends to result from less than steller party members) kills the fun I would otherwise get from it.

I don't see how making the game more challenging or nerfing certain weapons will help make the game "more fun" and easier for less than optimal groups to complete in a reasonable amount of time. All I know is that there's a direct link between time spent and resources consumed. Making it less desireable to group with new players due to inexperience and/or lack of gear won't keep people coming back and really doesn't make business sense.

signed

[osirisisis]

osirisisis,

First I would like to say well done on this reply... your post is very straight forward, polite, and most of your points have allot of ligament validity. Here is my reply:

There are a number of items in your Retrospective that I would like to provide an alternative view point.

From my vantage point 32 hours a week is not a lot, well probably more than many players but I doubt it puts you in the top 1% of players. I spend between 28 hours and 35 hours a week in DDO and I know that several of my guildies and people I run with regularly are more frequent players than I.

The point is life time DDO experance. 5 hours a day for 910 days = 4550 life time hours. Now I'm going to conservative through number out there and lets say that there has been about 300,000 people who have bought 1 or more months of a DDO subscription. Some played for a week or a month or for years. Now find me 3000 players who have 4000 plus hours lifetime. you and your 2 guildies are not going to cut it. On my server there is about 100 of them. I know I been playing with them. That leaves you 2900 on all the rest of the servers.
Only turbine knows the truth. But I would be willing to bet you a w/p rapier that my statement about 1% is correct.



SirBruce of MMOGCHART has stated that his subscription data for DDO is based upon information provided by an anonymous source, to which he believes the accuracy is worthy of a B. The information he has is from Launch to January 2007, a period of about 10 months. Module 6 was released in January 2008, a period of 12 months after the last reported number on MMOGCHART.

These facts alone represent credible reasons to dismiss your opinion as stated, regardless of your opinions validity.

I challenge your to find a more credible source that has charts online of MMO population that includes ddo population.


Your argument in a nut shell is that crafting is driving away players.

Incorrect my argument is that a soild decline in random loot table excitement (weaked random loot table dept) and loot runs is a major contributor to the decline of population since mod 5. I support the crafting system. I say synergy and balance in a exciting random loot table/exciting named loot/exciting raid items/and exciting crafting system. With random loot runs, Raiding, and crafting all in balance.

I would like to look at other aspects that have been potentially effecting the player population over the same timeframe.

In July 2007 we saw the last of our Monthly Updates. They were no longer monthly but Turbine officially discontinued the practice of updates between Module releases.

In August 2007 we saw a server merge combining 14 servers in 5.

In September 2007 we were introduced to the Black Abbot in Module 5.

Those three aspects probably affected far more players than the introducing of Crafting in Module 6. I state this as my opinion based upon my friends and guildies who have left the game over the past three years. (We are close enough to the Anniversary for me to call it three years). I do keep track. I also keep track of the reason they are leaving. Not one individual sited crafting, actually several sited crafting as a reason they were going to other games, as in they have it. Most people sited personal problems, lack of “fun” in game, or as one individual noted money (they were getting rid of cable, broadband and ddo)
Fun is a tough one to describe as I am lumping of things like lack of content, lack of solo play, lack of people to play with when they wanted to play. Peoples really saw Module 5 as unfun. All you have to do is look at how many people run the adventures from Module 5 today to decide what the general population thinks.

Here's what I saw:

Mod 4 Giant hold Strong loot runs, strong easy raid with good items, well done new content, with some +1 loot weekends that hurt power 5's rarity. Population peak.

Mod 5 necro 1 new random loot run, hard to flag for really hard to beat raid with not so good items, good new content population drops some.

mod 6 crafting introduced, hard to complete then was adjusted, loot run declined dramatically, Random loot table strength and excitement declined dramatically due to crafting item strength, no new raids, raid item excitement drops.
Good new content. I would say mod 6 probably didnt changed population level much ether way.

mod 7 slight increase in population for a short time do to monk excitement but after the grind effect of the shroud takes hold and monks not turning out to be that good at the higher levels population drops. Turbine try's to address the raid item excitement issues and does a good job with 2 new raids which helps some, but the last month or so of mod 7 I would say subscriptions where at there lowest since the peak of mod 4

mod 8 new starting area may have increased poplution slightly due to new player influx. I think they did a great job with revamping the starting area.

As it stands now: random loot and loot runs are hurting badly to non exsistant. Random loot table excitement is at a all time low with w/p being its last real strength. Raids and raid loot is ok but could use some help and crafting drone grinding to clone everyone with the same crafting items is in full force. New content, races, classes, loot runs, and random loot excitment are desperately needed.


I’d further argue that the game population is currently growing. GamerDNA, MMORPG, Massiviely, and other online resources suggest that it is. In a recent article on GamerDNA (A self reporting study) showed logins on DDO up 300% from last summer. Looking at the who list and the number of LFMs up on Khyber I can’t disagree that more people are playing DDO (or that people are spending more time in game) I just don’t think it is by 300%.

Show me the chart that GamerDNA has for log in on that last 2 and 1/2 years.

In all I don’t think your opinion matches the information that we have seen nor my experiences with friends and guildies in game.

...

[shores11]

I seem to look at DDO totally opposite. I think it is on a upward trend as I am seeing many new subscribers and I like the direction it is going in as well and I have been playing for 3 + years now. Kudos to Turbine and DDO developers.

[branmakmuffin]

By the way, I think you underestimate 'powergamer' characters; ones like Magi who you are consistently disparaging for their extremely fast leveling, etc, are in fact not dying frequently in doing so. The people who die the most fall into one of two categories:

#1: still learning game, character or quest
#2: think they are awesome, but are in fact far probably far from it.

Anyone who crows on the forums about how powerful his characters are is just that: someone who crows on the forums about how powerful his characters are. Not someone I give a hoot about, not someone I want to group with, not good for the game. "Not dying" is not a trait of "power gamer," it's a trait of "smart player." I'm a smart player, but I'm not a power gamer. One reason I don't PUG anymore is that too many times overzealous players run into rooms or areas, grab too much agro, then "party wipe." That's why, as many have stated over the years, it can be easier to solo. Hirelings do exactly what you tell them (more or less).

The rest of your post makes sense, and is a good argument for not re-implementing the XP loss. But I liked it because it gave death some sting. Now, who cares if your character dies? Just go repair and it never happened.