Why DDO is on a down ward spireral and how to fix it.

[query]

63 Reaver raids one PC only flagged and not ONE (*^&(&(*&^ Tome ever!


Now the ellies are "improved" it's even HARDER to find groups for it.


*Summons wall of brick, bangs head against it, may have accidently crashed Thelanis....oops, looks like Tarrant did it *

[Chaos000]

So you don't mind repetition as long as it doesn't take too long? That sounds a bit off. Either you don't mind the repetition or you do.

Anyway, some casual players (e.g., me) like the fact that uber loot is hard to come by.

I loathe repetition, it's a bitter pill to swallow. The only thing that overrides my dislike to keep me playing is the draw of either a +3 tome, 20th runs and/or desireable named items. So the preferred method is to gear up with a veteran group with characters that make it look too easy and steamroll through it at a rapid clip with a bare minimum of resources expended.

Ever cleric a vision run without drinking a single mana pot, tossing a single scroll and have a quarter of your mana left when the raid is successfuly completed? Run it every three days like that... and you don't mind THAT sort of repetition.

Doesn't even have to be a "let's set a new record" run. So long as everyone is not so underequipped as to drag down the party, it's almost guaranteed to be a successful run.

When a quest/raid epic fails = more repetition.
If the dps is taking more overall damage than they're putting out = more time spent in quest = more consumables spent to keep party alive = loot runs required to re-coup the cost = more unnecessary repetition.

[muffinlad]

Correlation does not mean causality. Even if we assume the highest player populations were at a time when loot runs were at their highest, this does not mean that the better the random loot causes the higher population. Even if we assume that it is a causal factor it is pretty unlikely to be the main, never mind the only such factor.

Look Gunboat, when I used to punch people in the arm all the time, we went to the Moon. As I stopped punching people in the arm, we stopped going. I think it is pretty clear that if I started punching people in the arm again, we would return to manned space flight to the moon. A gut punch would get us to Mars.

Regs,

muffincauser

[Junts]

Right now the only fun at high levels is the hound. It can be accomplished, and it always holds something of value. Contrast that with the utter lack of raid loot in VON6, the Titan, Demon Queen, and the Reaver.

As for VoD, I have only been in that dungeon once, and our WF tank didn't have enough intimidate. I am afraid that our guild doesn't have a level 16 warforged tank with a 50 intimidate, so no one wants to waste the resources on that one.

It doesn't take much to make us happy. Just clone Tempest Spine 5 or 6 times, and you will find more satisfied players.

the dq and titan loot tables are normal now; run full raid parties on elite instead of fast short mans and see a lot of raidloot.

22 titan completions, 17 in full groups (or 11 because someone ld'd), and I've seen 4 rings, 3 gloves, 3 boots, 2 belts and 4 jungle cloaks.


all these raids drop fine and normal amounts of raidloot


an intimitank (much less a wf intimitank) is not required for vod; a wf dps tank or a carefully watched fleshy dps tank is totally acceptable as long as you know what you're doing

[Missing_Minds]

Only 3360 hours in the last two years? light weight.

I started back after mod 1 was released but about 3 months before mod 2. Some period of time after that, I'm going to say 3-4 I finally got around to installing xfire. Given that DDO only recently is coming near its 2 year aniversery (as I recall), and installing xfire late, I have 4,280 hours.

I do have a full time job, and I do sleep nights and weekends while also keeping a bit of a social life.

btw, I stopped playing about a month ago, so you have roughly... 8 months to catch up. Have fun, I'll be out having more fun with life and trying out other things.

[jervonics2112]

the boredom which leads to the downward spiral of this game is not caused by loot

it is caused by playing 140 hours per week & the slow-ass development cycle of this game

This is the most spot on statement I've read here. The fact is the agonizingly slow development of this game is what is sinking it. When I read that Turbine had gotten the rights for Lord of the Rings Online, I knew at that moment that it was going to be very tough for DDO to succeed. Turbine has put 10 times the amount of effort into LOTRO than it has DDO. Over 3 years the game has been out and we have received ONE CLASS addition(MONK) and One New Race (DROW). Now, I don't know about you, but this is completely unacceptable as a fan of D&D. It is apparent that Turbine feels that LOTRO is their long term "keeper" because of the success of the movie bandwagon. Until they are willing to give it an honest go, then no change in the loot table, or new content is going to change the fact that we are just BORED to TEARS doing the same quests over and over. I left for 8 months and just came back about a month ago. I must say it was a good thing I did, because if I had not, I would be playing something else right now, for sure. My loyalty to the D&D brand has kept me around this long, I dare say, MOD 9 better be stunningly innovative. If not, I fear the downward spiral will continue, mirroring our economy and heading into oblivion.

[branmakmuffin]

I loathe repetition, it's a bitter pill to swallow. [...]m When a quest/raid epic fails = more repetition. If the dps is taking more overall damage than they're putting out = more time spent in quest = more consumables spent to keep party alive = loot runs required to re-coup the cost = more unnecessary repetition.

Given that the entire game is unnecessary, I don't understand this attitude.

If it's ceased to be fun, why do it? Obsession? Masochism? I will never understand why people do something which is supposed to be fun when they claim it's no longer fun.

[Fenrisulven6]

"it is caused by playing 140 hours per week & the slow-ass development cycle of this game"

This is the most spot on statement I've read here. The fact is the agonizingly slow development of this game is what is sinking it.

You just going to brush aside the first half of that sentence? 140 hours a week? I'd get bored with anything, including sex, after 140 hours a week.

[Voalkrynn2]

Dragon scale armor is on its way out. For the amount of time (or money) it takes to get a set of scales, you can get enough runes to craft (even with the randomness) a better set or armor.

Yes I have an unhealty obsession with that armor. It is causing aging, weight gain, and hair loss.

[Monkeytoe]

DDO is on a downward spiral because there are now 300 million Chinese internet users. Thats probably more people than actually speak English. That probably triples the amount of people using the internet since last year, so just imagine if last year a game had 10% market share, this year it has 5%! Aaaaiiee!

[Justicesar]

the dq and titan loot tables are normal now; run full raid parties on elite instead of fast short mans and see a lot of raidloot.

22 titan completions, 17 in full groups (or 11 because someone ld'd), and I've seen 4 rings, 3 gloves, 3 boots, 2 belts and 4 jungle cloaks.


all these raids drop fine and normal amounts of raidloot

Since when did Elite Titan loot get better for your groups?? My guild hasd been getting utter garbage on elite.....many runs. Then we started running normal and the drops have been better....heck...2 chattering rings last run. Just checking if by when you say loot is better "now" you mean like days/weeks ago.....or sinse the raid loot mechanic was changed and our luck on elite is just not the norm??

[Healemup]

doing something more does not equal doing something better. If your credentials are simply playing 140+ hours a month in a game... that doesn't make me think more of your ideas...

You tell me that they name hardware after you like they did for fatal1ty--then I'll stop and say, "Wow, now THAT guy knows what he is talking about." You don't even have a ham named after you!

Hey, they named a quest after my character's name Inthedark (Rainbow In the Dark). Alright, so it was just a coincedence. Also, I don't want to think of the imbalance of people who would agree/disagree with "Wow, now THAT guy knows what he is talking about."

Sorry, not quite on topic...

[Chaos000]

Given that the entire game is unnecessary, I don't understand this attitude.

If it's ceased to be fun, why do it? Obsession? Masochism? I will never understand why people do something which is supposed to be fun when they claim it's no longer fun.

I've logged in a lot of time in this game. As a christmas present in about a month, I leveled up a character to a friend's (casual in every sense of the word) character concept on his account to cap, with 1750 favor, two third tier greensteel items (item and weapon), a dwarven thrower, paralyzing of maiming, +5 transmuter, vorpal, disruptor, banisher... 3 +2 tomes, bloodstone, 2 optic nerves, fully upgraded silver flame necklace, +5 mithril tower shield, +5 blueshine mithril fullplate. (My wife was taking care of her grandmother for a couple months at that time and I was free to do what I wanted with my time)

My point is, for me personally, ddo can be a blast despite the grind of repetition. However, anything that might make the repetition take longer (quest-raid failure/lack of dps-ac-hp/partywipe/afk) or require even more repetition of a different sort (loot runs to replenish the cash dump that tends to result from less than steller party members) kills the fun I would otherwise get from it.

I don't see how making the game more challenging or nerfing certain weapons will help make the game "more fun" and easier for less than optimal groups to complete in a reasonable amount of time. All I know is that there's a direct link between time spent and resources consumed. Making it less desireable to group with new players due to inexperience and/or lack of gear won't keep people coming back and really doesn't make business sense.

[GoldyGopher]

osirisisis,

There are a number of items in your Retrospective that I would like to provide an alternative view point.

From my vantage point 32 hours a week is not a lot, well probably more than many players but I doubt it puts you in the top 1% of players. I spend between 28 hours and 35 hours a week in DDO and I know that several of my guildies and people I run with regularly are more frequent players than I.

SirBruce of MMOGCHART has stated that his subscription data for DDO is based upon information provided by an anonymous source, to which he believes the accuracy is worthy of a B. The information he has is from Launch to January 2007, a period of about 10 months. Module 6 was released in January 2008, a period of 12 months after the last reported number on MMOGCHART.

These facts alone represent credible reasons to dismiss your opinion as stated, regardless of your opinions validity.

Your argument in a nut shell is that crafting is driving away players.

I would like to look at other aspects that have been potentially effecting the player population over the same timeframe.

In July 2007 we saw the last of our Monthly Updates. They were no longer monthly but Turbine officially discontinued the practice of updates between Module releases.

In August 2007 we saw a server merge combining 14 servers in 5.

In September 2007 we were introduced to the Black Abbot in Module 5.

Those three aspects probably affected far more players than the introducing of Crafting in Module 6. I state this as my opinion based upon my friends and guildies who have left the game over the past three years. (We are close enough to the Anniversary for me to call it three years). I do keep track. I also keep track of the reason they are leaving. Not one individual sited crafting, actually several sited crafting as a reason they were going to other games, as in they have it. Most people sited personal problems, lack of “fun” in game, or as one individual noted money (they were getting rid of cable, broadband and ddo)
Fun is a tough one to describe as I am lumping of things like lack of content, lack of solo play, lack of people to play with when they wanted to play. Peoples really saw Module 5 as unfun. All you have to do is look at how many people run the adventures from Module 5 today to decide what the general population thinks.

I’d further argue that the game population is currently growing. GamerDNA, MMORPG, Massiviely, and other online resources suggest that it is. In a recent article on GamerDNA (A self reporting study) showed logins on DDO up 300% from last summer. Looking at the who list and the number of LFMs up on Khyber I can’t disagree that more people are playing DDO (or that people are spending more time in game) I just don’t think it is by 300%.

In all I don’t think your opinion matches the information that we have seen nor my experiences with friends and guildies in game.

[ShaeNightbird]

From my perspective, I see a lot of people rush through this game to get to the "top" really fast. I know somebody who does that with this game. Got his sorc capped in less than 2 months time, now working on the alts in the same way. Rush rush rush, now says there's nothing left to do. I've been playing this game for nearly a year now, not even close to capped on any of mine, I don't rush, I'm a casual player no question, but I seem to enjoy the game more. Not saying this is the same for everybody, but this guy concentrates on the beginning, and the end. He has no use for anything in the middle. He does the same 10 "grind" quests over and over. And then he wonders why he gets bored.

[branmakmuffin]

All I know is that there's a direct link between time spent and resources consumed.

And this is a problem (if you're saying it's a problem) why, exactly? Do you play the game to play the game, or to "conserve resources?" Now, I suppose there are those whose goal is to play each quest in the shortest amount of time possible, using the least number of potions and wand charges, but that sounds like Charts & Accounts, not Dungeons & Dragons.

But hey, you don't need my approval to play the way you want.

[Riggs]

The problem is twofold.

One - random loot used to be better, and for the first year of the game at least every time there was 'good chests' that were 'too easy' to get to, they were nurfed.

Now you find items 6-8 levels below a quest, and it really steams people up. "Gee this level 10 quest on elite is supposedly level 12, and the best item I pulled out of 4 chests was a level 8 +1 shatter +6 sword of power 3, and the rest were level 6...or level 4.......wow Im really happy about the rewards for the risk".

The other problem is also what is currently fun. Shroud/green steel. The shroud got a raid right - puzzles that are not stupidly hard or annoying to solve, lots of monsters to kill, lots of chests, and every run, no matter what, you get ingredients. So the randomness is somewhat taken out, as after 20 runs you KNOW your getting something.

Where right now, you can run any other quest, or any other raid, and still not know you will get the one item you actually want - and if 2 solid months of running the same quest isnt enough to get 1 item - thats a lot of grinding for no useful reward.

The problem is that because a tier 3 item is better than any random damage weapon you can possibly EVER find anywhere else randomly. Short is some ultra rare 'silver holy burst greater devil bane khopesh', a min 2 weapon is better than 99% of random weapons out there. So why run anything else?

Yes the shroud is the best raid yet for a variety of reasons. But....there is a limit to how many times you can take 8 characters grinding the same quest day in and day out to get 3 guys set up in green steel. One character running it would take 2-3 months just to get 1-2 items, so you really have to have 2-3 running it for every 1 character you want items...unless you dont mind waiting months on end.

Grinding is boring after a while. Running something 10-20 times can be ok...if you like the people your running with. Running something 100 times gets old. Really old. But where else are you going to go?

This also drains the player population in most other quests in the game. Someone who is somewhat new, and pugs a lot, is going to often be running into the players than dont, or cannot, run the shroud on a regular basis, and often those kinds of pugs = bad experience. I am not talking about people that are decent, but dont have a lot of time, but people that cant get into groups, or guilds, because no one wants them around as they are a known quantity, and a bad one. When many 'good' players are busy grinding the shroud day in and day out, instead of running a larger range of quests - it reduces the play experience of pugs in general. (and yes, many people who are bad to play with also psot lfms a lot, because they cant get into other groups)

So not only is random loot trash, but since you can get guarenteed (with enough time) really nice damage weapons in the shroud, why run anything else? Thats the new loot run.

So yes random loot needs to be better than quest level -8. (Getting level 2-4 items in Xorian on elite say - is a real insult to your idea of risk = reward if your running it at level appropriate levels.)

Next there is no crafting, other than the shroud, so a lot more crafting needs to be added, in something other than the shroud. Random runes does not equal crafting.

People need a reason to run other quests, and it cannot be something that is yet more of the "run this quest 100 times and you might get a named item".

[Hafeal]

I actually had a lot of friends come back to the game this fall that had been gone for a while. Half of them have left again already; because they looked at the shroud crafting mechanism, understood that it was the only way to play a high end character, and decided it wasn't worth it and moved on.

This is disheartening. I finally created my first greensteel item for my cleric and now it will be months more to get all the ingredients to the next tier because I just do not want to grind shroud and be bored. THere is a lot of other content to have fun with ... yet if you run shroud, vod or top level stuff, many a group (high end raids in particular) expect you to have it.

Sorry to burst your collective DOOOOOOM bubbles, but if you read GamerDNA and Massively's year end review of MMOs, they seem to think DDO is actually growing

Thanks for the info and the link. Where are the naysayers?

[Chaos000]

And this is a problem (if you're saying it's a problem) why, exactly? Do you play the game to play the game, or to "conserve resources?" Now, I suppose there are those whose goal is to play each quest in the shortest amount of time possible, using the least number of potions and wand charges, but that sounds like Charts & Accounts, not Dungeons & Dragons.

Think of it this way. Cleric's use consumables (scrolls/wands/potions) to sustain consistent healing over a longer period of time. It helps to cover any inadequacies of a group in a quest/raid (example: pit fiend lasting 5 rounds instead of 1). However, the game is built so that with a decent enough group a cleric can subsist entirely on good mana management without a need to use a single consumable.

Thus, using consumables falls into "choice" instead of "necessity." (true example: successful vision of destruction run, two clerics, 13 heal scrolls, 0 mana pots, 15 charges off a remove curse wand between the two of them)

Therefore by retaining that reserve without the need to re-plenish helps to create more willingness to cleric again in three days time.

[branmakmuffin]

Think of it this way. Cleric's use consumables (scrolls/wands/potions) to sustain consistent healing over a longer period of time. It helps to cover any inadequacies of a group in a quest/raid (example: pit fiend lasting 5 rounds instead of 1). However, the game is built so that with a decent enough group a cleric can subsist entirely on good mana management without a need to use a single consumable.

Thus, using consumables falls into "choice" instead of "necessity." (true example: successful vision of destruction run, two clerics, 13 heal scrolls, 0 mana pots, 15 charges off a remove curse wand between the two of them)

Therefore by retaining that reserve without the need to re-plenish helps to create more willingness to cleric again in three days time.

This doesn't really address what I wrote in my post, but, whatever.