Why DDO is on a down ward spireral and how to fix it.

[osirisisis]

Loot running was one of the biggest hits to do back the day and it seemed regardless of whatever time we as the playerbase spent loot running it never got old.

It was the pure thrill of getting a chance at something big. Turbine made decisions to rework old quests just to negate these loot runs. Of course the playerbase moved on to something different, but one has to wonder looking back now, not allowing loot runs in quests such as PoP or Von4, Co6 really doesn't matter since today everything is so inflated.

Shroud crafting was one of the biggest mistakes and in the end, imo, it will destroy the game. As a result of tier 3 weapons, everything post this is inflated, HPs, stats, blanket immunities. Instead of addressing the real problem, the rumor mill has a nerf to W/P coming. So as a result of the mistake of introducing shroud weapons, Turbine has chosen to rework other game mechanics. See a trend? Expect more blanket immunities and inflated stats in the future.

Unfortunately, there isnt a simple easy fix, but things need to be reworked from the base up not from the top to the bottom. It's a common problem MMOs face...as the game evolves, developers do not appear to think about the ramifications of introducing new material. Cause and effect. Introducing new material will always have an impact to the existing game. Developers/designers need to outline those effects and make better judgement calls based off the consequences that "best" suit the games goals and long term plans.

A good designer will always go back to the original goal whether a quest, a code rework or at larger scale the whole game. The same process can be applied to other applications, whether a new business, a office building design, a city park or even a sports organization. During the design process and following years, one must keep going back to the original goals and plans and revaluate if the current system is still following the goals and objectives that were laid out.

signed

[osirisisis]

I agree with the OP that loot tables need a boost (which is sad in in itself considering the monty haul nature of DDO) to prop up interest.

However, revisting the P5 is not the way to go about it. The green steel genie is out of the bottle and without the willingness to accept a nerf the only choice is to come up with random loot that can compete. So instead of limiting the P5 and improving it, they need a new P5. These weapons need a ML of 7 or greater and effect that is commensurate with that cost. Either better version of the P5 (greater smiting, superior smiting) or some new effects that cannot be obtained in game yet.

signed

[osirisisis]

You and your friends leave a game because you don't know enough about it, and then disagree with the OP's expert opinion while professing your lack of knowledge. I've got an opinion of you. PM if you'd like to know.

OP: Nice post. I think that the ingredients for the shroud still hold value because people desire the things they can craft, so I'd like to see a way to make the DT runes trade-able as well. I think being able to sell/buy a +5 Resist/GFL/+3AC rune for your DT armor would bolster the DDO economy.

Thank you and agreed... I would like to see bound removed from the game completely including raid loot and most importantly attuning rituals.

[osirisisis]

ddo doesnt need an economy. its a game. a game economy invite plat farming and massive inflation. whenever the vendors do get a good item its pounced on by someone who knows plat is soon to follow in the ah. the ah and an economy crippled the casual player for the most part and is the only reason plat farming exists. why would you want to bolster that?

I find the economic part of the game very entertaining and I know many other players who agree. I think the AH was one of the best additions to the game. I enjoy pulling/buying something rare and valuable that I can use or give away to a friend or guild when they say " i been looking for a ____ for a while to you have one" and making there day.

The economy is one pieces of the DDO puzzle of the many pieces that I enjoy.

[osirisisis]

[I may have spelling and grammar errors, but my delete key is iffy today so please don't focus on those.]
First to the OP I've been playing video arcade games since PONG was out. Yes the FIRST arcade video game. I played D&D for over 31 years now. And depending on what the evolution of a MUD to a MMORPG is (and Wikki literally deleting ALL evidence of them when proof is shown as to the facts and people get banned is exactly why I never trusted such a system of reporting over the proof-readership of encyclopedias on-line, but I digress...) I played MMORPGS for 9-18 years; yeah those Diablos and Ultima onlines and Meridian 57's existed LONG before EQ and others before them, with graphics and stuff too .

I vary in playing here from as little as 0-4 hours a week to as much as 40-50+, depending on my work schedule (also when employed, thanks economy,) my personal obligations, my friends outside this community, my family and other stuff that gaming has no link to.


I have min-maxed and role-played. Experimental built and sped ran. Made the least likely to fail build then threw that away when I started permadeath as the rules (when I play) for that play style vary differently.

I've been here officially and unofficially coming up on 3 years but listed more like 2 years nine months if you look at the "final" account I settled with checking back up on the game and it's rocky beginnings.


You know what?

SFW?!

We have many "experts" here with "credentials" in their field. The power gamer is as important (or maybe even less) as the casual gamer, or the MMORPG jumper (the one who plays several not quits for the new thing.) Not addressing an entire segment of the population is like a upper middle class person who is a college professor addressing the "middle class, the homeless and those in that group."

No common sense and no experience in that area, yet it makes up the entirety of what we are. Yes I am making a veiled political allusion which will remain nameless, but simply treat as an allegory. For those who don't get it, just move on for now.


Address ALL player types (like Merlask-now Tolero-did in her VERY detailed multi server review pre merge) their habits and their vocal opinions.


And if you got the lofty goal to go into "analysis mode," well, it's been said better by others. I shall simply state please review your posts, correct some spelling and grammar for professional reasons and use DIRECT factual correlation both in your observations and proposed solutions.

Better yet, don't do an analysis and use the simple words, "in my opinion." Scientific critics are the meanest of the bunch because their whole world of construction is attempted to be shattered by some ego, and if they "win" they act as if "all others are not fact but simply attention to their opinion, not LAW."

Yep, the biggest logic adherers and proof demanders are the biggest bullies out there, but they at least demand evidence that overrules any DISPROOF (Einstein was so ahead of his time and without his formal training, many of his colleagues wrote him off as a kook or not well...yes the failing of math person simply because he thought literally outside the Euclidean box.)


So, address your future opinions based on solid correlated fact (not simply saying this was up and this was down, but look how the gamer DNA did theirs even WHEN population levels are classified on a Turbine level.)


As for my OPINION on the system we have.....it went too powerful too fast and the monster inflation has put us in a Monty Hall situation at higher levels just to be productive or even survive. This has caused many (a lot seen in pugs from personal experience) to have laundry lists of requirements and being run like a military rush mission by some "I know the best method and the formula starts with 2 casters, 3 tanks........")

In other words, not fun.

The Shroud.....man did that unbalance a lot of things. The big 5 STILL have their place as a weapon for every occasion, but making people ONLY go for Shroud items makes a degraded player when it comes to variety combat, that is thinking about ALL options sometimes. Also it Monty halls us again.

The rules of DDO must be followed when they can be implemented in a game, so no breaking and making more weapons that simply cannot exist.

The prefix and suffix go back to the book loot tables so embraced, so that cannot change either.

But I also agree more exceptional items with multiple surprises in the rules allowed. The Planar Gird was an EXCELLENT choice versus the Shroud high grind for low drop items and puzzle piece it together (this also is true for our "alchemical" improvements to original stuff and the inflation it unrealistically causes components....I never pull a Lightning split soarwood...and now for ONCE get 1...do I GRIND MERCILESSLY for 8 hours for #2 or pay 100,000+ gold for each? I suggest none of the above.) Redo the whole system, including this random loot roulette for shield high levels who spent enough time and strategy just getting access to the quest and succeeding to do it in time for the last part. More potential for adding RARE items that have special things...make the journey exciting instead of some shopping list!


Finally, enough with the spiraling of doom crud. We're about to enter the third year of the game's "dying" anniversary February, and new users based on the NEW SYSTEM of creation and playing low levels ARE trickling in (I met them so it's definitely true.) In that aspect, Turbine better have that coordinated marketing launch ready or this experiment is not going to last without advertising and making this more of a referral game never getting the fair advertisements of others, including the supported LOTRO by the same company.


"Yush," the rework DOES require a ground up (not top to bottom) if we are to address the monster/player inflated values, and that WILL take time, with calls Nerf a plenty when it REALLY is for game balance.

Until we have REAL crafting and customization, a lot of the support or augmentation are moot anyway, and who knows what the new capstones and enhancements (with some of those weird unneeded pre-reqs) will do?


None of all these things has condemned the game nor is is saved. But if I do an analysis I will treat this like any college or business report and make sure I have plenty of references, interviews, experts in the area, and a conclusion based on ALL information.

It still most likely would be hotly debated.

But I'm not doing this.

Why? Prime rule 1:


IT'S A GAME, NO MORE NO LESS!

I love my game and hobby, but sometimes you got to just step back for a bit, no matter how short or long you do.

All those objectifying, please do for a bit, as when you return, it does give you a fresh perspective on things.


Oh yeah, and have fun!
That's on page 1032; instructions written out on standard flowchart/Boolean including XOR Logic Tree

I should of said no trolling or no one reply if your on acid or perma fried on acid.

First of all here's some advises. Speaking is circles, tangents and advanced vocabulary is counter efishant to communication. So your very long winded sugar coded vocabulary, circle jerk post with your ideas bury deep with in was probably past up by most.

As for your passive aggressive comments ... well you are entitled to your opinion

As for the facts on population during what times, there is only a few who truely know, all reference is word of mouth theory unless your the accounting department at turbine. I can only link to what others have posted and say its probelely true see how I can see over the years how many are on at different times on my server.

As for your idea about rules........... Well you know rules are made to be broken and if are not broken then there is no evolution or growth.

[Delt]

I should of said no trolling or no one reply if your on acid or perma fried on acid.

First of all here's some advises. Speaking is circles, tangents and advanced vocabulary is counter efishant to communication. So your very long winded sugar coded vocabulary, circle jerk post with your ideas bury deep with in was probably past up by most.

As for your passive aggressive comments ... well you are entitled to your opinion

As for the facts on population during what times, there is only a few who truely know, all reference is word of mouth theory unless your the accounting department at turbine. I can only link to what others have posted and say its probelely true see how I can see over the years how many are on at different times on my server.

As for your idea about rules........... Well you know rules are made to be broken and if are not broken then there is no evolution or growth.

All you do is mindlessly agree (/signed) with people who echo what you are trying to say and call anyone that disagrees with you a troll. And if you want to talk about vaccuous posts, I suggest you re-read your own.

You got a lot to learn about communication and logic....and courtesy for that matter.

[dragonofsteel2]

This thread makes me laugh a bit, think going keep the player base in the game giving people a +4 vorpal of maiming instead of there +3vorpal maiming. Now I might agree that shroud weapons went little far to fast, but to say it was a mistake I will never agree with. This was one best raids and to me a good way to get loot. I do not have worry about running this quest 20+ times to get one item. I have heard of people getting real unlucky at pulling scales and stuff, but still lot better then running the titan of late and waiting for the titan belt. Dam that titan is boring and never get anything of use out there just hoping for the one piece of loot. At least if I do not get my L. scales, I can make shroud clickies and wait..

Shroud tier 2 weapons really not even that powerful, not a single one I would use to fight current bosses or trash mobs. I do not know about everyone on the server but slight upgrades can let me skip mods until the upgrade becomes worth it so in turn lowering the play time of people grinding for gear. How long did take you to get all the vod and hod loot? Is the name loot in there powerful? If was not powerful were the incentive to get it? The loot in chest needs to add more of side attraction not being the uber weapons everyone wants, which for some reason still has the biggest demand weapon in the game w/p rap's, its easier to buy the S. Ing., M. Ing. and the L. ing to make a uber shroud weapon then buy one these. Yes some of the reason is the supply of them, compare to the supply of shroud items. This thread still makes me laugh, oh we need uber loot to do boring runs through pop for the 100+++++ times. The only difference is instead the boring runs through pop we doing shroud. I do not need the excitement open the chest and seeing what I get, dam pass the 100 time open the chest I fill like the game owes me the item so not exciting to me. I guess little more pragmatic I want to see progress not hoping roll that 100 this time, helps me feel like I am working toward something.

Oh by the way your chart shows ddo going up to 90,000 subs down to 50,000 then holding at 50,000 then down again to 45,000, so your analysis sucks. The highest population was when it was release and then started a decline til mid 2006, then held steady til 2007. Then slow decline, there is were the information of this chart stops. Reavers bane was induced 4month into 2007 and this chart does not even give information on this. (So have no idea were pop up the population of the game) Even though in general thought gainthold of whole was one the best mods. If list best mods would be Gianthold, The Thirteenth Eclipse and then the twilight forge. If reading this chart and analyzing it, I would say people try out the game the were disappointed and move on, it did not hold there attention for whatever reason. Part of the problem was the game on release was to easy. So in turn does not support your loot runs of c06, giant caves and threnals. Threnal prob. was the biggest loot run back in the day 2min to run easy chest good chance for vorpals, til they nerf that for people complaining it was to easy.

The real problem to me has been material for the end game, I want new quest and new things to strive for not to make old dry material fun again. The old material should just be for new leveling toons or for me to run back with my high level laugh how easy it has gotten. Just sounds funny to me oh my vorpal is not as good use to be at level 10-12, that is how it should be. There should be new toys and power weapons to work for not a +5 vorpal of pure good/maiming/ect...

[Riggs]

I should of said no trolling or no one reply if your on acid or perma fried on acid.

First of all here's some advises. Speaking is circles, tangents and advanced vocabulary is counter efishant to communication. So your very long winded sugar coded vocabulary, circle jerk post with your ideas bury deep with in was probably past up by most.

As for your passive aggressive comments ... well you are entitled to your opinion

As for the facts on population during what times, there is only a few who truely know, all reference is word of mouth theory unless your the accounting department at turbine. I can only link to what others have posted and say its probelely true see how I can see over the years how many are on at different times on my server.

As for your idea about rules........... Well you know rules are made to be broken and if are not broken then there is no evolution or growth.

Wow if you call querys post trolling....*proceeds to ignore anything said by quoted player from here on.* (Not that I was putting a lot of weight on opinions that centered around greater wops or something as a way to make the game better)

[branmakmuffin]

All you do is mindlessly agree (/signed) with people who echo what you are trying to say and call anyone that disagrees with you a troll.

Yet the person to whom he was replying, and whom he accused of trolling, was indeed trolling.

Sometimes there really is a wolf.

[Riggs]

I would say the game depends on the level of enjoy the game offers over other MMO.
Random loot excitement is apart of of the level of enjoy. Random loot excitement declines and population declines. This correlation needs to be addressed. Cloning and Droning on raid loot and crafting lacks verity and I would bet will create a grind effect that will continue the loss of population. The game relys on old player staying, players who have left coming back, and new players influx with major upgrades in marketing.

The game isnt having a huge problem because there isnt greater vorpals, greater disruptors, greater wops etc in the random tables. Lack of 'more random loot' is not the issue.

The game is having a problem because 99% of random drops are useless, and no random drop can match named items and raid loot. And raid loot has become 'must have' for high levels. Even a crummy Ring of Lies from the reaver would be a min level 44 ring using random tables - hence impossible. +4 to a stat, and +10 to FOUR skills, when randomly each one is considered a level 9 item alone. A str 6 greater false life belt would be level 21 or so at least. etc etc.

D&D has crafting. D&D has customization. D&D has 'being able to buy things for the right price'.

DDO has randomness. DDO has long, long, long grinds for the only thing of value - named items. or wops say. Everything else is basically of little to no value.

Instal kill weapons, or wops, are only so valuable because monsters have been inflated since MOd 5 to have way more hit points than they should. 3000-6000 hit point monsters are insane in a D&D system.

The game has become unbalanced in monsters vs damage. Loot has become unbalanced where random chests are 99.999% worthless as anything other than "cash to buy potions and scrolls with...or loot for my lowbie".

At high levels the game is balanced assuming players have named/raid geat for hard or elite on any higher level quests.

There are far too many dodge/insight ac items being added. A 45 ac used to be useful in mod 3, now only 4-6 levels later - you need a 75+ ac to matter on elite, if you have a 45 -50 ac? nice for lower level trash, but not for real monsters, might as well be naked for all 45 ac will help. Six levels, 30 ac change - thats extremely unblanced.

The game doesnt need greater disruption, greater vorpals, greater smiting etc. It would be nice, but thats not why the game is in trouble.

DDO took a game that was balanced, customizable, had crafting and buying, then left out crafting (shroud is only partly crafting, as you only get to pick from '1 of 24 preset results'), added enhancements, but left out any kind of item customization (where is my staff of power? ring of fireball 3/day?), and no where in the game can you purchase useful equipment from NPCs other than scrolls and potions.

That is why the game is having a problem. D&D was balanced over many years more or less. DDO is missing a number of elements that balance things out, and also made monsters more unbalanced after mod 5.

**edit, ok I just ignored my last post, but just since I was posting all at once.

[Magi]

From my perspective, I see a lot of people rush through this game to get to the "top" really fast. I know somebody who does that with this game. Got his sorc capped in less than 2 months time, now working on the alts in the same way. Rush rush rush, now says there's nothing left to do. I've been playing this game for nearly a year now, not even close to capped on any of mine, I don't rush, I'm a casual player no question, but I seem to enjoy the game more. Not saying this is the same for everybody, but this guy concentrates on the beginning, and the end. He has no use for anything in the middle. He does the same 10 "grind" quests over and over. And then he wonders why he gets bored.

This is hilarious. I understand you've only been playing a year but for those of us powerlevel type players from the beginning the middle is boring. Its when you toon is not good enough but past the ww period. I do have to say this....2 months?? You need to buckle down man, thats slow. My last sorc was lvl 16 with 1750 favor in 8 days.

2 months, rofl

[branmakmuffin]

My last sorc was lvl 16 with 1750 favor in 8 days.

That's not a reason to be impressed by you, that's a reason to pity you.

[Magi]

That's not a reason to be impressed by you, that's a reason to pity you.

wow, you're brilliant. sorry i'm not worthy of my opinion. please go ahead and tell a large corporation how to save their company with your walmart greeter experience.

[branmakmuffin]

wow, you're brilliant. sorry i'm not worthy of my opinion. please go ahead and tell a large corporation how to save their company with your walmart greeter experience.

So you're saying players like you are DDO's salvation?

[Magi]

So you're saying players like you are DDO's salvation?

Players like me have 3 capped accounts because players like you cry after a year and quit. Get off the forums and go cap a toon. The end game is the best part, but you wont know that for at least another year

[HeavenlyCloud]

Players like me have 3 capped accounts because players like you cry after a year and quit. Get off the forums and go cap a toon. The end game is the best part, but you wont know that for at least another year

I'm still capping the second account .

[swooshrp]

Shroud weapons are the sole reason we see inflated hps and blanket immunities. The introduction of these weapons will always make any new content having to use that system as a background for development in quests. Anything less will make the quest unfulfilling and too easy.

Full "real" crafting will never come imo. Introduction of making scrolls or pots maybe but its too far down the pipe and too far from being worth it now. Turbine has already indicated the introduction of taking existing raid items and having the ability to add to them in the next mods.

The result will be the continuation of the same path of blanket immunities and inflated hps, stats and saves. Casters will become buff bots and nothing else. Melees will reign and the "gimped" classes will not be wanted.

It's not an easy problem to solve and it may never be able to be resolved....unfortunately.

[BlackSteel]

Shroud weapons are the sole reason we see inflated hps and blanket immunities. The introduction of these weapons will always make any new content having to use that system as a background for development in quests. Anything less will make the quest unfulfilling and too easy..

sooooooooo the reason certain mobs have 400% the hp of other same level content is b/c my shroud greataxe does 16-20% more damage than +5 holy weapon (not counting a 1 percent proc, or if you do include, then up to a 25% increase with Lit 2) heck even really rare approprate greater banes will beat a shroud weapon for DPS. Its a bit lopsided on the HP vs DPS comparison. And if shroud weapons were truely the cause then shouldnt all the new content have the same inflated HP?

Monastery and Kobold do not have this problem. And the trogs and tieflings in the subt. dont have crazy amounts of HP, heck even the beholders dont have too much.

I think the monsters in question were just built to be hardy creatures; its just some Dev overshot their HP by abit, and forgot to take into account their con score. 2/3 or 1/2 of their HP would be about the perfect ballpark range for a tough trash mob (2500-3000 HP). My barb would definetly put down the wounder when faced with that range and pick back up his shroud weapon.

[swooshrp]

sooooooooo the reason certain mobs have 400% the hp of other same level content is b/c my shroud greataxe does 16-20% more damage than +5 holy weapon (not counting a 1 percent proc, or if you do include, then up to a 25% increase with Lit 2) heck even really rare approprate greater banes will beat a shroud weapon for DPS. Its a bit lopsided on the HP vs DPS comparison. And if shroud weapons were truely the cause then shouldnt all the new content have the same inflated HP?

Monastery and Kobold do not have this problem. And the trogs and tieflings in the subt. dont have crazy amounts of HP, heck even the beholders dont have too much.

I think the monsters in question were just built to be hardy creatures; its just some Dev overshot their HP by abit, and forgot to take into account their con score. 2/3 or 1/2 of their HP would be about the perfect ballpark range for a tough trash mob (2500-3000 HP). My barb would definetly put down the wounder when faced with that range and pick back up his shroud weapon.

Its not the comparison of one weapon, its the collective group. 9-10 shroud weapons versus not having 9-10 shroud weapons equals a lot less DPS.

Trash mobs have inflated hps already and the reason they are called trash mobs is the they are meant to be just a bump in the long travel of the road not an end all be all to the quest.

There is a reason the group chooses to wound/puncture mobs versus just DPS them outright. In your example of a "ballpark range" of hps your decision only had wounders or shroud weapons. My point is exactly that...as a result of shroud weapons, we have inflated hps, as a result we have to use wounders to get by. And now as whole groups use wounders, more blanket immunities are added.

Now take away shroud weapons and imagine if they were never introduced. Everyone is wielding a +5 weapon with some form of 1-2 enhancements. HPS would need to drop, and wounding would have been less of a priority, and likely the evolution of them in groups would have never been needed.

IMO, the most horrific part is where does it stop?!

[branmakmuffin]

Players like me have 3 capped accounts because players like you cry after a year and quit.

Neither my nor anyone else's casualness has any bearing whatsoever on your obsessive gaming.

Get off the forums and go cap a toon.

A "toon." What is a "toon?" I don't have any toons.

The end game is the best part

Wrong. The part you're playing is the best part. Remember what Yoda said about how Luke was always looking to the future, and that his mind was never on where he was or on what he was doing.

but you wont know that for at least another year

What was it Buzz said to Woody? Something like "You're a sad little man, and you have my pity."