Why DDO is on a down ward spireral and how to fix it.

[feynman]

I don't know about anyone else, but for me D&D was NEVER about how much loot you got at the end of the quest.

Commie!

[Draccus]

Haven't read all the replies but I'm not sure I agree with your initial logic leap.

What it seems like you missed is that many players who used to be running those wonderful, nostalgic loot runs you speak of are now the ones running multiple Shroud runs.

Those players may not have left, they just moved from loot runs to The Shroud.

Your "fix" may have no impact at all. In simple marketing speak, you're assuming incremental sales when it's really cannibilized sales with little net gain.

[Widdle]

Not going to be adding much, just another casual gamer voice. The thing I loved about DDO initially was exploring the quests, not the grind as it is now. I have not really seen the high level content, and on the occasions I lucked out and found a friendly group some of the quests are fun (as they are new to me). I loved Rainbow in the Dark, but equally I hated Enter the Kobold, I sat gobsmacked that they had created monster so plainly ludicrous as the end boss(s), due to lack of equipment (and possibly poor group tactics) I only died 15 times. I realize DDO isn't PnP but still - not fun.

-Greensteels and the current crafting set up aren't really broken in terms of the game, they just arrived too early, really the best of the best, teir 3, should be more towards Level 20 (like Thorzian says in his post)

-WOP are an evolution of the game, due massively inflated Mob hit points. As a player of melee's without the best equipment this makes any of the high level quests pretty much a pain, a game of patience while the casters clear the mobs out, or the well equipped melees rack the kill count, so its a solution to one of DDO problems.

-Random loot is fun and may be an important factor (why else would trading card games be so popular)

But the important factor for the casual gamer is new quests, and new toys to play with. The rumored Druid and Half-Orc will help a bit, but new quests at all levels of the game are needed. Korthos was fun once through, but after a while you begin to notice how easy it is, and how dull it gets too.

People talked about more dungeon random-ness in terms of mobs and mini-bosses, but it should be possible to make quests 'random' or at least have multiple version of the maps. But this result in more work for the Devs and this is already the major issue to all things.

What I would love to see is crafting for all, the ability to take your junk items and make something useful from them. I would love to see quest making. In far fetched la-la land the ultimate version or example of this would be to give each player access to two new classes, the Artificer and Sage. The Artificer acts to turn stuff donated to him into components, and then craft this using ingredients (making use of an existing in game resource) to create new 'normal' items. It could just be done through a series of mini games to give you something to do, with difficulty increasing based on complexity and level of the item. Have you played Puzzle Quest or any of the other puzzle games? It would give you something to while you waited for you Guild or pals to get organized before questing, or for the non-crafting groups just be able to turn out Potions on the cheap.

The Sage would design quests, and make them open to people while they are about (using another tab in social, or touts in the market place etc etc). He could get new elements from quest drops (more use of ingredients) or add trophies (a la LOTRO (boo hiss)). Other MMORPG have used this (SW Galaxies or the feature upcoming in City of Heroes as examples, there are others) to add content to a game, and those quests which are popular could get votes and eventually upgraded to be included in the game full time. More content, and people would pay (happily) to be able to end up doing one of the Dev's jobs for them, leaving them to make the major quests and swing the old nerf bat (sorry but it would be true). Thus solving the problem succinctly summarized by CSFurious (who made me laugh)

If done right the crafting and quest design would be another couple of strings to the DDO bow, and mean people could still go hunting for the right items to make their Keen Adamatine Rapier of Wound and Puncture (supporting the loot excitement concept that started this thread). And when your bored you could run and random quest, rather than grind the Shroud for the twelfth time that week, or just play games while socializing with you DDO pals.

Sorry massively off topic really, but the idea has been bugging me ever since actually doing some of the fun and exceptionally not fun high level quests. Not that the Devs have the time to implement such and idea, but I can dream.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Not going to be adding much.

Really?

I call shenanigans;

Not going to be adding much, just another casual gamer voice. The thing I loved about DDO initially was exploring the quests, not the grind as it is now. I have not really seen the high level content, and on the occasions I lucked out and found a friendly group some of the quests are fun (as they are new to me). I loved Rainbow in the Dark, but equally I hated Enter the Kobold, I sat gobsmacked that they had created monster so plainly ludicrous as the end boss(s), due to lack of equipment (and possibly poor group tactics) I only died 15 times. I realize DDO isn't PnP but still - not fun.

-Greensteels and the current crafting set up aren't really broken in terms of the game, they just arrived too early, really the best of the best, teir 3, should be more towards Level 20 (like Thorzian says in his post)

-WOP are an evolution of the game, due massively inflated Mob hit points. As a player of melee's without the best equipment this makes any of the high level quests pretty much a pain, a game of patience while the casters clear the mobs out, or the well equipped melees rack the kill count, so its a solution to one of DDO problems.

-Random loot is fun and may be an important factor (why else would trading card games be so popular)

But the important factor for the casual gamer is new quests, and new toys to play with. The rumored Druid and Half-Orc will help a bit, but new quests at all levels of the game are needed. Korthos was fun once through, but after a while you begin to notice how easy it is, and how dull it gets too.

People talked about more dungeon random-ness in terms of mobs and mini-bosses, but it should be possible to make quests 'random' or at least have multiple version of the maps. But this result in more work for the Devs and this is already the major issue to all things.

What I would love to see is crafting for all, the ability to take your junk items and make something useful from them. I would love to see quest making. In far fetched la-la land the ultimate version or example of this would be to give each player access to two new classes, the Artificer and Sage. The Artificer acts to turn stuff donated to him into components, and then craft this using ingredients (making use of an existing in game resource) to create new 'normal' items. It could just be done through a series of mini games to give you something to do, with difficulty increasing based on complexity and level of the item. Have you played Puzzle Quest or any of the other puzzle games? It would give you something to while you waited for you Guild or pals to get organized before questing, or for the non-crafting groups just be able to turn out Potions on the cheap.

The Sage would design quests, and make them open to people while they are about (using another tab in social, or touts in the market place etc etc). He could get new elements from quest drops (more use of ingredients) or add trophies (a la LOTRO (boo hiss)). Other MMORPG have used this (SW Galaxies or the feature upcoming in City of Heroes as examples, there are others) to add content to a game, and those quests which are popular could get votes and eventually upgraded to be included in the game full time. More content, and people would pay (happily) to be able to end up doing one of the Dev's jobs for them, leaving them to make the major quests and swing the old nerf bat (sorry but it would be true). Thus solving the problem succinctly summarized by CSFurious (who made me laugh)

If done right the crafting and quest design would be another couple of strings to the DDO bow, and mean people could still go hunting for the right items to make their Keen Adamatine Rapier of Wound and Puncture (supporting the loot excitement concept that started this thread). And when your bored you could run and random quest, rather than grind the Shroud for the twelfth time that week, or just play games while socializing with you DDO pals.

Sorry massively off topic really, but the idea has been bugging me ever since actually doing some of the fun and exceptionally not fun high level quests. Not that the Devs have the time to implement such and idea, but I can dream.

[Delt]

Really?

I call shenanigans;

Everyone get your brooms - it's shenanigans!

[Gunga]

I can't really understand your post, but I will disagree. At least from the casual gamer standpoint. The main reason that my casual group of friends stopped playing DDO is because of the die hard gamers. Turbine lost at least 4 subscriptions from my group of friends because they all played 12 hours or less a week and felt like idiots when they didn't know some small intricacy on a quest they've never run before.

Course, there aren't going to be many casual gamers taking time out to post on a forum dedicated to a game that they just casually play, so I might be the minority opinion on this one.

OP: Nice post. I think that the ingredients for the shroud still hold value because people desire the things they can craft, so I'd like to see a way to make the DT runes trade-able as well. I think being able to sell/buy a +5 Resist/GFL/+3AC rune for your DT armor would bolster the DDO economy.

[MysticRhythms]

... have all chest in the game randomly spawn ingredients?

Maybe lower level chests spawn fractional ingredients like the Siberys Dragonshards. As you accumulate enough of them, you can combine them to make the ingredients necessary for the same greensteel stuff the Shroud gives you or combine them as-is at lower levels to craft your +1 Acid Khopesh of Pure Good.

That makes every chest in the game valuable regardless of level.

You can also have an option to make it such that any magic item you pull from a chest can be decomposed into fractional ingredients instead of sold for platinum OR have an ingredients shop where you can buy fractional ingredients for platinum.

This way, everyone gets the gear they want by simply ... playing the game ... and then no chest pull is pure trash and you don't have to "get lucky" to get the item you really want - you jsut put enough time in to get the ingredients to make it.

[Thorzian]

You and your friends leave a game because you don't know enough about it, and then disagree with the OP's expert opinion while professing your lack of knowledge. I've got an opinion of you. PM if you'd like to know.

OP: Nice post. I think that the ingredients for the shroud still hold value because people desire the things they can craft, so I'd like to see a way to make the DT runes trade-able as well. I think being able to sell/buy a +5 Resist/GFL/+3AC rune for your DT armor would bolster the DDO economy.

ddo doesnt need an economy. its a game. a game economy invite plat farming and massive inflation. whenever the vendors do get a good item its pounced on by someone who knows plat is soon to follow in the ah. the ah and an economy crippled the casual player for the most part and is the only reason plat farming exists. why would you want to bolster that?

[query]

[I may have spelling and grammar errors, but my delete key is iffy today so please don't focus on those.]
First to the OP I've been playing video arcade games since PONG was out. Yes the FIRST arcade video game. I played D&D for over 31 years now. And depending on what the evolution of a MUD to a MMORPG is (and Wikki literally deleting ALL evidence of them when proof is shown as to the facts and people get banned is exactly why I never trusted such a system of reporting over the proof-readership of encyclopedias on-line, but I digress...) I played MMORPGS for 9-18 years; yeah those Diablos and Ultima onlines and Meridian 57's existed LONG before EQ and others before them, with graphics and stuff too .

I vary in playing here from as little as 0-4 hours a week to as much as 40-50+, depending on my work schedule (also when employed, thanks economy,) my personal obligations, my friends outside this community, my family and other stuff that gaming has no link to.


I have min-maxed and role-played. Experimental built and sped ran. Made the least likely to fail build then threw that away when I started permadeath as the rules (when I play) for that play style vary differently.

I've been here officially and unofficially coming up on 3 years but listed more like 2 years nine months if you look at the "final" account I settled with checking back up on the game and it's rocky beginnings.


You know what?

SFW?!

We have many "experts" here with "credentials" in their field. The power gamer is as important (or maybe even less) as the casual gamer, or the MMORPG jumper (the one who plays several not quits for the new thing.) Not addressing an entire segment of the population is like a upper middle class person who is a college professor addressing the "middle class, the homeless and those in that group."

No common sense and no experience in that area, yet it makes up the entirety of what we are. Yes I am making a veiled political allusion which will remain nameless, but simply treat as an allegory. For those who don't get it, just move on for now.


Address ALL player types (like Merlask-now Tolero-did in her VERY detailed multi server review pre merge) their habits and their vocal opinions.


And if you got the lofty goal to go into "analysis mode," well, it's been said better by others. I shall simply state please review your posts, correct some spelling and grammar for professional reasons and use DIRECT factual correlation both in your observations and proposed solutions.

Better yet, don't do an analysis and use the simple words, "in my opinion." Scientific critics are the meanest of the bunch because their whole world of construction is attempted to be shattered by some ego, and if they "win" they act as if "all others are not fact but simply attention to their opinion, not LAW."

Yep, the biggest logic adherers and proof demanders are the biggest bullies out there, but they at least demand evidence that overrules any DISPROOF (Einstein was so ahead of his time and without his formal training, many of his colleagues wrote him off as a kook or not well...yes the failing of math person simply because he thought literally outside the Euclidean box.)


So, address your future opinions based on solid correlated fact (not simply saying this was up and this was down, but look how the gamer DNA did theirs even WHEN population levels are classified on a Turbine level.)


As for my OPINION on the system we have.....it went too powerful too fast and the monster inflation has put us in a Monty Hall situation at higher levels just to be productive or even survive. This has caused many (a lot seen in pugs from personal experience) to have laundry lists of requirements and being run like a military rush mission by some "I know the best method and the formula starts with 2 casters, 3 tanks........")

In other words, not fun.

The Shroud.....man did that unbalance a lot of things. The big 5 STILL have their place as a weapon for every occasion, but making people ONLY go for Shroud items makes a degraded player when it comes to variety combat, that is thinking about ALL options sometimes. Also it Monty halls us again.

The rules of DDO must be followed when they can be implemented in a game, so no breaking and making more weapons that simply cannot exist.

The prefix and suffix go back to the book loot tables so embraced, so that cannot change either.

But I also agree more exceptional items with multiple surprises in the rules allowed. The Planar Gird was an EXCELLENT choice versus the Shroud high grind for low drop items and puzzle piece it together (this also is true for our "alchemical" improvements to original stuff and the inflation it unrealistically causes components....I never pull a Lightning split soarwood...and now for ONCE get 1...do I GRIND MERCILESSLY for 8 hours for #2 or pay 100,000+ gold for each? I suggest none of the above.) Redo the whole system, including this random loot roulette for shield high levels who spent enough time and strategy just getting access to the quest and succeeding to do it in time for the last part. More potential for adding RARE items that have special things...make the journey exciting instead of some shopping list!


Finally, enough with the spiraling of doom crud. We're about to enter the third year of the game's "dying" anniversary February, and new users based on the NEW SYSTEM of creation and playing low levels ARE trickling in (I met them so it's definitely true.) In that aspect, Turbine better have that coordinated marketing launch ready or this experiment is not going to last without advertising and making this more of a referral game never getting the fair advertisements of others, including the supported LOTRO by the same company.


"Yush," the rework DOES require a ground up (not top to bottom) if we are to address the monster/player inflated values, and that WILL take time, with calls Nerf a plenty when it REALLY is for game balance.

Until we have REAL crafting and customization, a lot of the support or augmentation are moot anyway, and who knows what the new capstones and enhancements (with some of those weird unneeded pre-reqs) will do?


None of all these things has condemned the game nor is is saved. But if I do an analysis I will treat this like any college or business report and make sure I have plenty of references, interviews, experts in the area, and a conclusion based on ALL information.

It still most likely would be hotly debated.

But I'm not doing this.

Why? Prime rule 1:


IT'S A GAME, NO MORE NO LESS!

I love my game and hobby, but sometimes you got to just step back for a bit, no matter how short or long you do.

All those objectifying, please do for a bit, as when you return, it does give you a fresh perspective on things.


Oh yeah, and have fun!
That's on page 1032; instructions written out on standard flowchart/Boolean including XOR Logic Tree

[Shyver]

ddo doesnt need an economy. its a game. a game economy invite plat farming and massive inflation. whenever the vendors do get a good item its pounced on by someone who knows plat is soon to follow in the ah. the ah and an economy crippled the casual player for the most part and is the only reason plat farming exists. why would you want to bolster that?

While I agree that the AH wasn't neccesarily a good thing for the casual player, I wanted to point out that plat farmers were in the game since launch and well before the AH came to be. However it did make their presence stronger.

[Widdle]

Really?

I call shenanigans;

I accept your call. I rambled on a tad. Back to bed with me now, all this public exposure has made me sleepy.

[SableShadow]

I think the OP has a strong point re: random chest l00t that competes or exceeds GS. Some of it is out there now, but is so incredibly rare as to not be worth hoping for. Maybe an alternate crafting system, based on chest l00t, would also help?

[query]

While I agree that the AH wasn't neccesarily a good thing for the casual player, I wanted to point out that plat farmers were in the game since launch and well before the AH came to be. However it did make their presence stronger.

/QFT

If we have an AH and there are Plat farmers, "moving" goods that shoulodn't be gotten as they did and post them in the AH (causing its own misinterpretation to the Joe/Jane player wondering why the 3 million bids no longer work) then we need to regulate the AH just like the SEC does for our markets. If they don't play by the rules and slip by, we need more nets on our game economy when they offload their laundry.

IMHO of course.


Let's get back to just grouping with our buddies and have fun again!
I second that post!

[frugal_gourmet]

I am curious whether green steel will continue to be the premiere loot with the cap going up by 4 levels. The Shroud's going to get easier with 4 more levels under our belts.

[SableShadow]

I, too, did not understand why Turbine tried to fight loot runs. They were fun and added something quick to do to the game.

Curiously, when Turbine wants to put on a "reward" event for xmas, they put in the coins: random drops, with random returns, that can be found in any chest.

People are pulling lvl 16 weapons and saying "meh", but pulling a gold and saying "kewl!".

[Turial]

......
So now we move on to resolution

1. Reduce drop rate of power 5's back to where they were when giant hold was released rewarding all players who have played up to this point who have them. This would be a trickle down fix that would take a while to correct the issue. With many people currently holding a set of power 5 weapons it will take a large number of new players to make such weapons "rare" again.

2. Fix disruption so that in all cases on normal hard and elite it is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs Undead. Disruption still goes off about 5% of the time, unless the mob is immune to disruption a saving throw of a 1 still kills them. Greater Disruption only fires off about 2% of the time. If you are refering to damage from a tier 3 vs a disruptor then you are wishing for a bit much. A +1 holy blank of pure good or a greater undead bane will kill the mob prior to a disruptor in most content past level 12 let alone end game content.

3. Fix smiting so that in all cases on normal hard and elite it is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs constructs and mix more constructs back into the mob table. They could change this one back to the pnp basis for the weapon but they would also have to adjust what weapons get smiting. Having a scimitar or rapier simply kill all constructs on a crit would be a bit much.

4. Fix banishing so that in all cases on normal hard and elite it is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs banish able mobs and mix more banish able mobs back into the mob table. We are hitting content where the mobs now have more HD then allowed by banishing. Most of the fiend blood creatures in the vale can be banished as well as the devils on normal settings.

5. of all the power 5's I think vorpal is fine the way it is thus as we see vorpal still holds some value in the market today. The value of vorpals is dropping for some content as more and more mobs are deathwarded.

6. I can't really think of how to help paralyzing even tho I believe it needs a boost.

7. these 2 ideas are a stretch but remove the prefix suffix rule and even tho I would make them 100 time more rare then the newly rarer made power 5's make it possible to have a + 1 vorpal-paralyzer min LVL 16 or a greater undead bane disruptor ect.
This would add great great excitement into the loot table.

8. Make it possible to have keen stack with improved crit since in almost all cases feats stack with effects so that one out of 35 w/p's would be a keen w/p doubling the puncturing effect This is one of those effects that specifically states it doesnt stack in the rules. It is fine the way it is......

Rather then boosting existing power 5 weapons it would be better to introduce greater power 5 weapons that have higher HD limits, and higher DC saves that must be made. These weapons would then rightly see an appropriate ML value rather then overpowering the level 10's who happen to have older and more powerful benafactors.

[Clay]

I am curious whether green steel will continue to be the premiere loot with the cap going up by 4 levels. The Shroud's going to get easier with 4 more levels under our belts.

You mean it isn't easy now?

[elraido]

Everyone who I know that are leaving, are leaving because they are bored with the game. Plain and simple. They want to wait for the next mod to see if it worth coming back to. When the game was first released, we had a mod almost every single month. Then mods started to get pushed back a month and a half, then two month, then three months, now 6 months if we are lucky. That is where the unbalencing is coming from. Giving people waaaaaaaaaaay too much time to grind and grind and grind stuff to make 10 greensteel items per toon...because there is nothing else to do. People used to have goals to shoot for in this game. Favor rewards that were a little difficult to get (i.e. having people run DIFFERENT quests to get something instead of the same raid over and over and over).

With a majority of Turbine resources shifting to LOTROL, we have the seen development drop off majorly....that is the main reason why people are leaving. It isn't loot per say.

[Dirac]

I accept your call. I rambled on a tad. Back to bed with me now, all this public exposure has made me sleepy.

Widdle, creative and thoughtful comments and suggestions are always appreciated, even if they are not feasible a the time. Hope to see more of your posts in the future.

I wanted to highlight some of the other good ideas and excellent observations that I agree with, but there are too many. Lots of good thoughts here. One I'd disagree with: I think the AH is good for the casual player. Gold is a whole lot easier to come by than the +3 wis item that your level 7 cleric needs on a ring slot. The power gamer has all the twinking items. The AH allows the casual gamer to tap into that.

[shores11]

Everyone, just thought about one point. Why are we no longer happy to just have fun? I have played for 2 1/2 years and still to this day have never run the titan or DQ. I have no WoP or Dragontouched armor but in every group that I am in I do what is expected of me, and I help others out. I don't need WoP, I don't need Tier III, I need a group of 5 or 11 others, depending, that want to have fun and play DnD.

BINGO!

You hit it on the head Thadiues. The main reason that some people complain and say they are going to leave (Which is strange, if I ever leave I will just leave. It's kind of like the guy who says he is going to kill himself, ok why tell us if you want to do it go do it.) is because they build their total enjoyment of the game on getting the biggest badest loot or leveling their character up in 10 days or less or because they zerg through so many quests it becomes boring after awhile.

When a player I group with says I leveled my character up to level 16 in 9 days I always ask why, why the hurry. I play this game for the enjoyment of the quests and the players. Loot and XP will come when you run a quest. I have been playing for 3 years now and the game is just as fun for me as it was then, I have no intention of quitting.

When zerging through quests for that uber loot which is usually received in the higher level quests and you get them, then what? Ok I have zerged through every quest I know of and received the best equipment I can wield or use in every slot. What happens is the quests become very easy because you have the best of everything there is no more challenge. I am not saying that this loot should not be achieved I am just saying not with the zeal that it is as it results in the burn out I see.

There is NO MMO out there like DDO, I can not believe how well in my opinion the game has been traslated from pen and paper, very good job on that Turbine.

Concerning the 5 power weapons: I personally feel these items are not good for the game also. I do not wield them ever and when I get them I sell them on the AH or the vendor in House Denieth or sometimes to a bartender. I understand the appeal for other players but if this game looses interest to me it will not be because of these wepaons being nerfed or taken away, I wish they did not exist.