Why DDO is on a down ward spireral and how to fix it.

[osirisisis]

First of all my credentials

I would bet that I have more DDO hours played then 99% of the DDO population. I have averaged over 140 hours a month for over 2 years.
I am 32 years young and have been a gamer for more then 25 years since asteroids on Atari first home system which I would bet I have more video game hours played life time then 99% of the DDO population. This is not an attempt a arrogance is this simple the truth.....I PLAY....I've played all most all my life.... and I play allot

Overview

DDO is like organ system in any living thing. All organs work with a job to support the system to keep it alive, healthy and growing.

One of the vital organ systems of DDO is the RANDOM LOOT TABLE.

Why?

The random loot table is like a lotto. When a player opens a chest or gets a end reward he or she has a chance to get something so rare and valuable that there is great excitement in the anticipation. That item can make them feel special as they tell stories about where they got it and show it off to friends. This excitement is a major part of the "ENJOYMENT OF THE DDO EXPERIENCE"

Fact 1 Notice in these charts at the link below that U will find that DDO population was highest when Loot Runs were at there highest

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart3.html

Notice how population is at its highest when Gaints caves CO6 and PoP loot runs were popular and then and then when loot runs and random loot tables head south so does population.

Power 5 vs tier 3.

This organ system took a major hit when mod 6

Why?

1. Crafting was introduced.

Tier 3 weapons basically decreased what I would guess to be about 80% of the value of power 5 weapons which is para, vorpal, smiting, banishing, and disruption.

2. Power 5's became more common do to higher level loot tables.

3. Players who had work hard to build up there weapons over the years now lost major value for there work since a tier 3 weapon was more effective in most cases. I would bet that this caused a small percentage of long time players to move onto other games.

Some of the logic I would think behind the crafting system was that newer players felt at a disadvantage due to a lack of gear. Other problems were address with build experience and guided builds in mode 8 to also help new players. Both of these ideas I am in favor of. With a 28 point guided build order and some tier 3 gear new players should hold there own.

Crafting, random loot, and raid loot should work in a synergistic manner all equal and all very important. As it stands now it is very lopsided

The final blow wounding of puncturing.

Wounding of puncturing is like a mutation that turned out to be a great evolution.
It is the last part of random loot table organ that is keeping it alive. It is that one gem in the ruff. It is the one pull left in the random loot table that has any real degree of excitement to it.

MARK MY WORDS .....NURFFF W/P AND THIS ORGAN SYSTEM WILL FAIL .

So now we move on to resolution

1. Reduce drop rate of power 5's back to where they were when giant hold was released rewarding all players who have played up to this point who have them. Add improved power 5's RR LVL 16 or 18 regular and get the drop rate at where they where when Giant hold was released.

2. Fix disruption so that in all cases on normal hard and elite it is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs Undead or add improved disruption at RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs undead.

3. Fix smiting so that in all cases on normal hard and elite it is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs constructs and mix more constructs back into the mob table or add improved smite at RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs constructs.

4. Fix banishing so that in all cases on normal hard and elite it is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs banish able mobs and mix more banish able mobs back into the mob table or add improved banish at RR lvl 16 regular 18 that in all cases on normal hard and elite is more effective then a tier 3 weapon vs banishable mobs .

5. of all the power 5's I think vorpal is fine the way it is thus as we see vorpal still holds some value in the market today. I would continue with the theme add improved vorpal at RR lvl 16 regular 18 that vorpals on 19 and 20.

6. I can't really think of how to help paralyzing even tho I believe it needs a boost. Add improved para with a high dice check at RR 16 or normal 18.

7. these 2 ideas are a stretch but remove the prefix suffix rule and even tho I would make them 100 time more rare then the newly rarer made power 5's make it possible to have a + 1 vorpal-paralyzer min LVL 16 or a greater undead bane disruptor ect.
This would add great great excitement into the loot table.

8. Make it possible to have keen stack with improved crit since in almost all cases feats stack with effects so that one out of 35 w/p's would be a keen w/p doubling the puncturing effect

9. Add Superior bane to the pool at +1 RR 12 and +1 lvl 14 normal thats +10 10D6.

I have many some other ideas which I may post later

Close

DDO is not going to grow in a crafting grind of clones and drones where players level, craft, raid loot, and cap all turning out to be clones and drones of the crafting grind with the most the same crafted gear.

DDO will grow in a context of random loot table strength balanced with a logical and balanced crafting system, strong population for grouping playability, and regular refreshment of new content, with a strong economy based in trade as a foundation.

P.S.
For those of you mindless troll who have nothing to do but bash posts to get attention... I relay this message: if U troll my post and reply with nothing but your opinion and state no logic facts to back your reply then don't waste the space on this post......... I will not reply to mindless flames .. but if you come with facts and good reason for your disagreement of this post I will more then happy to reply

[Uska]

I like many of your ideas except for in particular #8 keen shouldnt stack with improved crit as it goes directly against pnp rules and with certain barbs and kensai able to improve on this anyways its enough. As to why ddo has less players people are fickle some get bored others just want some mindless entertainment and ddo makes them think more then wow, also maybe if ddo was advertised more we would have more players. and your playing hours are impossible maybe per month but not per week 24*7=168-140=28 hours to sleep, eat and bath a week I am sure you did a lot but lets be realistic.

[martryn]

I would bet that I have more DDO hours played then 99% of the DDO population. I have averaged over 140 hours a week for over 2 years.

You don't have a job and you sleep less than four hours a night?

I am 32 years young

...

Parent's basement! Or else really bad at time keeping.

P.S.
For those of you mindless troll who have nothing to do but bash posts to get attention... I relay this message: if U troll my post and reply with nothing but your opinion and state no logic facts to back your reply then don't waste the space on this post......... I will not reply to mindless flames .. but if you come with facts and good reason for your disagreement of this post I will more then happy to reply

I can't really understand your post, but I will disagree. At least from the casual gamer standpoint. The main reason that my casual group of friends stopped playing DDO is because of the die hard gamers. Turbine lost at least 4 subscriptions from my group of friends because they all played 12 hours or less a week and felt like idiots when they didn't know some small intricacy on a quest they've never run before.

Course, there aren't going to be many casual gamers taking time out to post on a forum dedicated to a game that they just casually play, so I might be the minority opinion on this one.

[Drwaz99]

I agree 100% along with the repec thread. For me MOD 9 is a make or break MOD. Diablo 3 will be coming out soon, if not at the same time as MOD 9, and their website looks very promising. MOD 7 and 8 for me, the casual player, flopped HARD (not to mention MOD 8 came out half finished i.e. Hirelings), I have no time to constantly grind for things, it's mindless and boring. If MOD 9 isn't way better than average, I will be moving on. And if it flops I will put money on 3 or less servers by the end of the year. But that's just my opinion that I have discussed with many others and they have agreed. *crosses Fingers* I love playing DDO, but when I have to do the same thing 80 times. I'm glad I shave my head.

[Drwaz99]

You don't have a job and you sleep less than four hours a night?



...

Parent's basement! Or else really bad at time keeping.



I can't really understand your post, but I will disagree. At least from the casual gamer standpoint. The main reason that my casual group of friends stopped playing DDO is because of the die hard gamers. Turbine lost at least 4 subscriptions from my group of friends because they all played 12 hours or less a week and felt like idiots when they didn't know some small intricacy on a quest they've never run before.

Course, there aren't going to be many casual gamers taking time out to post on a forum dedicated to a game that they just casually play, so I might be the minority opinion on this one.

On the nose, the casual gamer is ignored in this game. I'm with you as one.

[osirisisis]

I like many of your ideas except for in particular #8 keen shouldnt stack with improved crit as it goes directly against pnp rules and with certain barbs and kensai able to improve on this anyways its enough. As to why ddo has less players people are fickle some get bored others just want some mindless entertainment and ddo makes them think more then wow, also maybe if ddo was advertised more we would have more players. and your playing hours are impossible maybe per month but not per week 24*7=168-140=28 hours to sleep, eat and bath a week I am sure you did a lot but lets be realistic.

thx for the positive response on the ideas and yes week was a typo its month

[Delt]

I agree 100% along with the repec thread. For me MOD 9 is a make or break MOD. Diablo 3 will be coming out soon, if not at the same time as MOD 9, and their website looks very promising. MOD 7 and 8 for me, the casual player, flopped HARD (not to mention MOD 8 came out half finished i.e. Hirelings), I have no time to constantly grind for things, it's mindless and boring. If MOD 9 isn't way better than average, I will be moving on. And if it flops I will put money on 3 or less servers by the end of the year. But that's just my opinion that I have discussed with many others and they have agreed. *crosses Fingers* I love playing DDO, but when I have to do the same thing 80 times. I'm glad I shave my head.

See, the unfortunate reality with MMO's is there has to be a grind (at least, the way most are designed). The trick is to make that grind fun. Few MMO's succeed in regard, DDO fails completely - because every grind game mechanic they employ is completely uninspired and uses too large a degree of "luck" (raid loot, end reward tables, coins, 20th tables, shards, DT armor...you name it). That's really what the OP is suggesting...he actually wants everything to be MORE of a lottery system, which is idiotic.

Not that stuff should fall in players laps mind you - but every time sink in DDO should provide the player with a feeling of progress and reward. That's why the Shroud is so successful - it's a genuinely good time sink/grind. Every aspect of the Shroud offers a reward and all it really needs to be perfect is offer a ingrediant trade-in NPC to deal with the scale shortage / surplus everything else.

Turbine really needs to expand on the whole crafting system (revamp Sorjek, increase the collectable recipes by a good 20+, introduce something new in mod 9).

[Uska]

See, the unfortunate reality with MMO's is there has to be a grind (at least, the way most are designed). The trick is to make that grind fun. Few MMO's succeed in regard, DDO fails completely - because every grind game mechanic they employ is completely uninspired and uses too large a degree of "luck" (raid loot, end reward tables, coins, 20th tables, shards, DT armor...you name it). That's really what the OP is suggesting...he actually wants everything to be MORE of a lottery system, which is idiotic.

Not that stuff should fall in players laps mind you - but every time sink in DDO should provide the player with a feeling of progress and reward. That's why the Shroud is so successful - it's a genuinely good time sink/grind. Every aspect of the Shroud offers a reward and all it really needs to be perfect is offer a ingrediant trade-in NPC to deal with the scale shortage / surplus everything else.

Turbine really needs to expand on the whole crafting system (revamp Sorjek, increase the collectable recipes by a good 20+, introduce something new in mod 9).

acttually for me shroud is a fail as it put to powerful of items into the game. but I do see your point.

[Kromize]

lol, greensteel tier 2 make most/all random loot worthless...let alone tier 3... I think, to fix it, they need to basically do an edit on all crafted greensteel weapons, whether people like it or not...

Newly thought of fix/edit. Make them exclusive to wearing one at a time, weapon or item. And if purified, 2 at a time, no matter what. weapon + item, 2 items, or 2 weapons.

[osirisisis]

See, the unfortunate reality with MMO's is there has to be a grind (at least, the way most are designed). The trick is to make that grind fun. Few MMO's succeed in regard, DDO fails completely - because every grind game mechanic they employ is completely uninspired and uses too large a degree of "luck" (raid loot, end reward tables, coins, 20th tables, shards, DT armor...you name it). That's really what the OP is suggesting...he actually wants everything to be MORE of a lottery system, which is idiotic.

Not that stuff should fall in players laps mind you - but every time sink in DDO should provide the player with a feeling of progress and reward. That's why the Shroud is so successful - it's a genuinely good time sink/grind. Every aspect of the Shroud offers a reward and all it really needs to be perfect is offer a ingrediant trade-in NPC to deal with the scale shortage / surplus everything else.

Turbine really needs to expand on the whole crafting system (revamp Sorjek, increase the collectable recipes by a good 20+, introduce something new in mod 9).

How could U possible interrupt a post that says random loot table is important to the game, w/p nurff would hurt whats life left in the random loot table, there needs to be more excitment in the random loot table for the game to thive again and that crafting is fine and raid loot as fine........................AS "he actually wants everything to be MORE of a lottery system" I mean honestly did I.Q. just drop sharply while I was away?

[GunboatDiplomat]

Correlation does not mean causality. Even if we assume the highest player populations were at a time when loot runs were at their highest, this does not mean that the better the random loot causes the higher population. Even if we assume that it is a causal factor it is pretty unlikely to be the main, never mind the only such factor.

I think the weapon balance is pretty good as it is at the moment. You can run any quest/raid on elite without green steel weapons and do just fine. Banishers, disruptors, smiters etc are all useful in the right situations, even in elite quests. Part of the fun of being a melee is knowing when to switch, say from a banishher to a vorpal, or dps. Even keen is far from useuless. I found a keen scimitar of smiting the other day and it worked a treat in Rainbow elite. It means I can swap out improved critical slashing feat. Absolutely no reason to make them more powerful, it would destroy game balance, requiring an entire reworking of same by the devs. Time I think they should spend developing new content instead.

I too hope mod 9 is exceptional, something along the lines of mod 4 only much more. If it isn't though, its not the end of the world and probably not of the game. A lot of new blood has come into the game, no doubt helped by the NPE and there is a lot of content for them to explore even if some of the longest running powergamers have exhausted elelements that interest them.

It's admirable that you're trying to suggest fixes for what you think is wrong with the game but, in the words of Ben Goldacre: 'I think you'll find its a bit more complicated than that.'

At the end of the day, from a personal perspective no one game is likely to hold your interest forever. If mod 9 disappoints maybe I'll give it a break for a while and come back or move on to something else.

[Thadiues]

Everyone, just thought about one point. Why are we no longer happy to just have fun? I have played for 2 1/2 years and still to this day have never run the titan or DQ. I have no WoP or Dragontouched armor but in every group that I am in I do what is expected of me, and I help others out. I don't need WoP, I don't need Tier III, I need a group of 5 or 11 others, depending, that want to have fun and play DnD.

[Alshatar]

I know if my con goes down to 0 I die, if my Str goes down to 0 I'm helpless, so if my con goes to 0 can I not die if they nerf W/P cause of con damage vs.. lets say an enemies cloud kill? Cloud kill being the same as W/P from a casters stand point.

I think as far as the "casual gamer" is concerned, did you guys not read anything about the item damage/no xp loss when dying mod? That was to support the "casual gamer" because they whined on the forums so much about not being able to make xp back when all they had to do was log another toon that wasn't in xp debt and play that one.. why.. because no one realised you REGEN'd xp if you were online or not

I'm tired, it's almost 3am here, but I just wanted to put my 2 copper in somewhere..

[Cold_Stele]

I'm personally having as much fun as I ever did but you're very right about the loot tables, despite what the trolls are saying.

I wonder if putting Shroud ingredients and (especially) DT runes into the general loot table would both decrease grind and put the old thrill of opening chests back in the game.

Come to think of it I remember a thread now about putting old named items (like tome pages) into the general loot table - again not a bad idea to make all the non-Shroud chests actually exciting to open once more.

[Uska]

Everyone, just thought about one point. Why are we no longer happy to just have fun? I have played for 2 1/2 years and still to this day have never run the titan or DQ. I have no WoP or Dragontouched armor but in every group that I am in I do what is expected of me, and I help others out. I don't need WoP, I don't need Tier III, I need a group of 5 or 11 others, depending, that want to have fun and play DnD.

Umm I am still having fun and on the server I am playing now I have no power 5 even and still having a blast with wonderful people on a wonderful server(thelanis) although I do miss the great people of ghallanda and khyber I have just about given up playing there due to connection issues and lag problems that only seem to affect me there although I dont know about argo as I never play there and sarlona I only play pd there and havent been in the mood for that recently

[osirisisis]

I'm personally having as much fun as I ever did but you're very right about the loot tables, despite what the trolls are saying.

I wonder if putting Shroud ingredients and (especially) DT runes into the general loot table would both decrease grind and put the old thrill of opening chests back in the game.

Come to think of it I remember a thread now about putting old named items (like tome pages) into the general loot table - again not a bad idea to make all the non-Shroud chests actually exciting to open once more.

This phase is key "chests actually exciting to open once more"
thx for the support

[Aesop]

There are some loot items that were just a bad idea and Greensteel is one of them... not the biggest in my opinion but probably number two.

#1. Dodge Bonuses on Items. This idea should have been nuked from orbit. It has unbalanced Armor Class on a high level and is a large reason for the major inflation.

#2. Greensteel Weapons. Completely breaks the rule of 10 and then some. Too many effects on a single weapon. Bending of the rules is one thing, but these weapons break it with better effects and new made up abilities that were not well thought out.


Those are the two biggest offenders in my book.

However the stated "ideas" will not help the game any especially since they don't actually have any suggestions in there. Making one weapon "more effective than tierIII" is not an idea its a "you broke my toy now fix it" statement. How would you go about this... more immunities? lower the Mob saves?

I will say though that crafting as done in the shroud does not mimic the spirit of crafting in PnP. Crafting, to me, is about customization not about inflation and the shroud is completely about Inflation. Unfortuanately we are stuck with it and must make do. The grinds in the game are a bit of an annoyance (particularly DT Armor with its "haha you can't even tell what you got" moments and Titan Runs with its "haha 100 runs and you haven't even SEEN the Belt or the Ring). You want to make the game better make the grinds feel less like grinds and more like questing again.


Aesop

[BlackSteel]

Never liked any of the Power 5, even in Mods 3 or 4. Pulling one of those in a chest was just pulling an extra wad of cash for me, as would be a w/p if i got so lucky. The loot tables dont need old effects buffed up or made more rare, but a new batch of interesting effects to replace them.

additionally, any idea how broken more powerful power 5 items would be below the level cap? Yeh, lets give the mobs no chance to make their save ><

[Samadhi]

I agree heavily - the benefit of RANDOM loot being such a motivator - is it does not matter what quest you play to get said loot. I can run any quest I want at high end game, and have a chance no matter how small for a nice pull at the end of it.

With current endgame, if I want a high end weapon, I run shroud - period. There is no other option. I actually had a lot of friends come back to the game this fall that had been gone for a while. Half of them have left again already; because they looked at the shroud crafting mechanism, understood that it was the only way to play a high end character, and decided it wasn't worth it and moved on.

[Samadhi]

This phase is key "chests actually exciting to open once more"
thx for the support

Exactly