The Rumored Con Damage Nerf

[juniorpfactors]

If you have mentioned nerfing w/p in the last couple of months i hate you. Nerf that.

Nominated for Greatest post of the year


jrp

[Thorzian]

the hp/con argument is dumb. lets go through pucturing by the levels.

at low level (i have a lvl 6 puncturer) the power is useless. mobs have a con in the teens and a crit from an axe will one shot them.

at mid to upper mid... gianthold grind quests... puncturing catches up. the hp/con of the mobs increased. con still in the teens, maybe low 20's, but significantly more hp.

lets move on to high end content. con for mobs still in the high teens-high 20's... with an extrodinary amount of hp. puncturing rules.

the hp of the mobs were not a reaction to big damage dps, or to big damage spells. they are simply a natural progression of monsters in dnd. as you level up, your hp goes up. how many casters or rogues, barring items and tomes, have a single point more con at cap than at level 1? how many more hp do you have? the same cold be said for virtually all str and dex based toons as well. stat damagers of all kinds never should have been introduced into this game in the form they have been. any kind of serious power coming on a crit should have taken into account improved crit, keen, crit rage, the natural range of scimitars and rapiers and such but it wasnt.

these things are whats broken. not the mobs hp. it should be hard to take down a cr 21 giant when yer lvl 16 for crying out loud. it should barely be possible for an entire party. but to do it in seconds?

ive said it before.. the fix is easy.. a saving throw for stat damage effects. for the w/p example, the save for the puncture would be higher than the wound. a higher ml weapon would have a higher save for both. it could start at 10 and go as high as anybody wishes.

[Quikster]

not sure a saving throw is a bad idea, it works well on banishers on a lot of the content, but, im not sure it needs to be on both wounding and puncturing, a saving throw on a puncture would be fine. Many of the builds w/p is the most useful for will not be getting much for wounding anyhow on any dr mobs.

i do think there are more important things than this discussion that need to be addressed in the game however.

[EightyFour]

Change it so that that people kills mobs faster with DPS than with WoP's and watch the majority of people stop using them. Maybe lower hp and raise con, like give them more realistic hp values.

I don't think it should take a party of 4 to 6 people to beat on a giant and have it take 30 seconds to take him down. 5 seconds at the most for a decently equipped party.

And than you start talking about elite and that changes everything, hp are even more insane and the time to kill something takes even longer.

But I figure whatever is going to happen well happen, so roll with the punches per say weather it's WoP's getting turned into a nerf bat or it's still going to be the top form of weapon for insane hp mob's, I figure whatever right.

[Holgar]

I think that the new WoP argument arose when people started thinking about what was still to come after Level 16 (and I confess that my early Review of Mod 8 was one of several posts that helped bring this issue back to the forefront of discussion).

Personally, I don't think DPS should outkill (or even be equal to) WoP strategies, because WoP doesn't work on red names, and that gives an edge to DPS. But I do believe the disparity is far too vast right now and will continue to get worse. If the pattern continues as is, we are going to see an average mob with 5,000 hp and a Con of 25 - 30, and you will simply have no choice except to play Wounding or you will be kicked out of your group (you already see a bit of this with Prey on the Hunter).

Either that, or you are going to see increasing numbers of Red Names, which is a blanket disqualification to all sorts of other cool attacks.

Either way, the future looks bleak with conditions as is. Arguing that this is the case only in a couple of quests is really being short-sighted, because these quests are clearly a sign of what is to come if the Dev solution is "add more Red Names" or "Mobs with 5,000 hp and Death Ward". Something needs to be done BOTH to WoP AND to Mob HPs. The status quo is just not going to hold up indefinitely, and the game is going to suffer for it.

Holgar

[Aesop]

Step 1. Leave WoP alone (or you can go with Impact's suggestion about an on 20 effect... I don't care really)

step 2. Fix Stat Damage. Con Kills the rest make the critter helpless... that means no MOVING no Attacking and no Casting... none of this he's out of Str and still hits me for 30 damage stuff


step 3. Reduce certain mob HP to a reasonable number... this whole 5k hp for a mob on normal is crazy.


step 4. Work on more important stuff


Aesop

[Quikster]

Step 1. Leave WoP alone (or you can go with Impact's suggestion about an on 20 effect... I don't care really)

step 2. Fix Stat Damage. Con Kills the rest make the critter helpless... that means no MOVING no Attacking and no Casting... none of this he's out of Str and still hits me for 30 damage stuff


step 3. Reduce certain mob HP to a reasonable number... this whole 5k hp for a mob on normal is crazy.


step 4. Work on more important stuff


Aesop

I'll buy that for a dollar

[HumanJHawkins]

Step 1. Leave WoP alone (or you can go with Impact's suggestion about an on 20 effect... I don't care really)

step 2. Fix Stat Damage. Con Kills the rest make the critter helpless... that means no MOVING no Attacking and no Casting... none of this he's out of Str and still hits me for 30 damage stuff


step 3. Reduce certain mob HP to a reasonable number... this whole 5k hp for a mob on normal is crazy.


step 4. Work on more important stuff


Aesop

Or you could do number 1 and then jump straight to #4. The whole point of this thread was to say, if you really have to mess with stat damagers, please just take the one thing out of the game that everyone seems to be complaining about. DON'T ruin all of them!

[Frodo_Lives]

Step 1. Leave WoP alone (or you can go with Impact's suggestion about an on 20 effect... I don't care really)

step 2. Fix Stat Damage. Con Kills the rest make the critter helpless... that means no MOVING no Attacking and no Casting... none of this he's out of Str and still hits me for 30 damage stuff


step 3. Reduce certain mob HP to a reasonable number... this whole 5k hp for a mob on normal is crazy.


step 4. Work on more important stuff


Aesop

Easiest solution that seems workable.

Killing mobs through Con damage is vastly superior than straight DPS at end game. Let's face it, when one option is so far and above the others then it is time to take a look at it.

There should be more than one viable way to fight mobs at end game, more options makes for a better game.

[Issip]

Wow, I really really feel sorry for those who think kill count is everything - you're not understanding the game very well.

The person who wins the kill count generally attacks the easiest to kill mobs first, or goes after wherever there is the most to kill. You have to ignore the orthon that is tearing your cleric apart to hit all those torglodytes if you want the kill count. You have to ignore those casters that deal massive damage but run away and have to be chased when you try to attack them and go for the easy melee mobs that stand still and don't represent much of a threat.

In short, you have to ignore most or all strategy.

Yes it's wonderful when you're doing an easy loot run, but if you are doing something chllenging and there is a chance your party could wipe, then this type of ignoring strategy will cause the wipe.

I realize that many people only run shroud on normal with their capped toons in guild runs - then sure go for kills - of course if everyone does then you'll never get past part 1 becuase what non-contributing looser would waste time attacking portals?

You've reduced the game to it's dumbest, least interesting form, and I'm glad you're in the minority.

I prefer to work as a team and employ strategy to overcome enemies that can actually hurt you, in which case people have to play roles aside from straight zerg and kill the easiest and weakest first as fast as possible before someone steals your kill. To each his own, but don't ask the devs to **** up the game for the rest of us.

[EightyFour]

I think that the new WoP argument arose when people started thinking about what was still to come after Level 16 (and I confess that my early Review of Mod 8 was one of several posts that helped bring this issue back to the forefront of discussion).

Personally, I don't think DPS should outkill (or even be equal to) WoP strategies, because WoP doesn't work on red names, and that gives an edge to DPS. But I do believe the disparity is far too vast right now and will continue to get worse. If the pattern continues as is, we are going to see an average mob with 5,000 hp and a Con of 25 - 30, and you will simply have no choice except to play Wounding or you will be kicked out of your group (you already see a bit of this with Prey on the Hunter).

Either that, or you are going to see increasing numbers of Red Names, which is a blanket disqualification to all sorts of other cool attacks.

Either way, the future looks bleak with conditions as is. Arguing that this is the case only in a couple of quests is really being short-sighted, because these quests are clearly a sign of what is to come if the Dev solution is "add more Red Names" or "Mobs with 5,000 hp and Death Ward". Something needs to be done BOTH to WoP AND to Mob HPs. The status quo is just not going to hold up indefinitely, and the game is going to suffer for it.

Holgar

I think DPS should be king, but not because WoP's should be hit with a nerf bat, I think mob's should be hit with a small nerf bat. Your looking at WoP and DPS like they should be balanced to both be good strategy's most of the time.

Like DPS has it a little better because that's what you use against red names, so how about we make it so red names only take stat damage but can't be hurt by DPS, sound a little ridiculous?

I think that everything should have a time and place, and even though I think DPS should be king I also think that the weapon finessing character should have a chance to shine as well.

Which is why I think it's ridiculous in most circumstances that a WoP should do better than DPS. But regardless what happens, someone is going to gain and someone is going to suffer.

[EightyFour]

There should be more than one viable way to fight mobs at end game, more options makes for a better game.

Totally agree, more options do make a better game.

[Holgar]

I think DPS should be king, but not because WoP's should be hit with a nerf bat, I think mob's should be hit with a small nerf bat. Your looking at WoP and DPS like they should be balanced to both be good strategy's most of the time.

Like DPS has it a little better because that's what you use against red names, so how about we make it so red names only take stat damage but can't be hurt by DPS, sound a little ridiculous?

I think that everything should have a time and place, and even though I think DPS should be king I also think that the weapon finessing character should have a chance to shine as well.

Which is why I think it's ridiculous in most circumstances that a WoP should do better than DPS. But regardless what happens, someone is going to gain and someone is going to suffer.

Well, we are basically arguing two different slices of bread on the same sandwich, Eighty Four.

Basically, I am a DPS player and not a W/P player, but my point was that I don't mind if W/P is just a little bit better than DPS against trash mobs. Believe me, that would be a vast improvement over our bleak future, where it seems DPS will be like an angry gnat against most mobs, and W/P will be like the god of thunder.

Certainly, I agree it would be ridiculous for Red Names to be immune to DPS, because, much as DDO is a separate game from PnP, it is still based at least loosely on PnP, and that game is all about HP and Damage, baby!

Holgar

[HumanJHawkins]

Wow, I really really feel sorry for those who think kill count is everything - you're not understanding the game very well.

The person who wins the kill count generally attacks the easiest to kill mobs first, or goes after wherever there is the most to kill. You have to ignore the orthon that is tearing your cleric apart to hit all those torglodytes if you want the kill count. You have to ignore those casters that deal massive damage but run away and have to be chased when you try to attack them and go for the easy melee mobs that stand still and don't represent much of a threat.

Yeah... What he said... 'nuff said.

[Aesop]

Or you could do number 1 and then jump straight to #4. The whole point of this thread was to say, if you really have to mess with stat damagers, please just take the one thing out of the game that everyone seems to be complaining about. DON'T ruin all of them!

Why not fix the ones that aren't working as written? I mean it'll add value back to other types of melee besides pierce spec and help people who can't get a wop rapier to save their perverbial bums. I'm not sure who everyone is that is complaining about WoP, but given the feedback on the forums its not a whole lot of people. I think they need to make it where multiple combat choices are viable, but I don't want to nerf too much right now and would perfer alternate options.

Aesop

[Mindspat]

Cloudkill is also not overpowered.

Answer this:

How long does it take to kill any particular mobs with Cloudkill?

How long does it take to kill the same mobs with WoP affects on weapons?

The difference in time spent is where I think the problem is. I have a WoP and I enjoy using it. The WoP is more logical of an attack then melee dmg or spell casting in a very large percentage of the encounters.

I don't want affects to change to the point they're truely functioning like nerf weapons, but there needs to be a LOT of global adjustments to get other things in line so it's not a must have. Currently, WoP is a must have and therein is where it's broken.

[KuRRuPT]

to fix this instead of gimping toons just crank up the monsters def make all monsters more harder I think that will fix every thing accross the board...

I am really tired of every one crying about how hard stuff is in the this game only. The game has been ez sense day one now we have people crying about this is to hard or we can't kill this mob then good i say try harder to work on the mob instead of wanting the dev's to make it ez ask for it to get more harder i hope they start puting in mobs that are like this to make the game harder because all this ez stuff is really sickning to me.... I like a challange

[EightyFour]

Well, we are basically arguing two different slices of bread on the same sandwich, Eighty Four.

Basically, I am a DPS player and not a W/P player, but my point was that I don't mind if W/P is just a little bit better than DPS against trash mobs. Believe me, that would be a vast improvement over our bleak future, where it seems DPS will be like an angry gnat against most mobs, and W/P will be like the god of thunder.

Certainly, I agree it would be ridiculous for Red Names to be immune to DPS, because, much as DDO is a separate game from PnP, it is still based at least loosely on PnP, and that game is all about HP and Damage, baby!

Holgar

Yeah I don't totally hate the point that WoP's work better on trash mob's in higher level quests, I just feel that dps should be brought up to match the speed that a WoP brings a trash mob down. I just don't think that a high level mob should take 100 or so hits with a standard mob beater and with a WoP should only take 10 to 15 hits or sometimes less, like even two or three hits.

But also I don't think that WoP's should be nerfed or that mob's should learn to become immune to them, I think that if anything that WoP's should be balanced with dps as far as the amount of swings go. But in my eyes I don't even mind them being a little better, the main thing I would like to see is that if you use WoP's or you use a high damage weapon that things could go the same way.

The way it is now, mob's have very high hp and taking them out with dps is the slower way of doing it. I'm thinking that the dev's when they build the hp of the mob's that they think that 4 to 6 players are all beating on one mob, and normally it's one or two people beating on one mob.

Oh well though, It's going the way it's going to go, and it doesn't upset me, but my observation is that higher level mob's have way to many hp compared to their con, it seems to me that most mob's as it stands now it seems that it takes about 6 times longer to take high level mob's down without WoP's. Even if it was twice as long, it would be a major improvement.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Yeah I don't totally hate the point that WoP's work better on trash mob's in higher level quests, I just feel that dps should be brought up to match the speed that a WoP brings a trash mob down. I just don't think that a high level mob should take 100 or so hits with a standard mob beater and with a WoP should only take 10 to 15 hits or sometimes less, like even two or three hits.

But also I don't think that WoP's should be nerfed or that mob's should learn to become immune to them, I think that if anything that WoP's should be balanced with dps as far as the amount of swings go. But in my eyes I don't even mind them being a little better, the main thing I would like to see is that if you use WoP's or you use a high damage weapon that things could go the same way.

The way it is now, mob's have very high hp and taking them out with dps is the slower way of doing it. I'm thinking that the dev's when they build the hp of the mob's that they think that 4 to 6 players are all beating on one mob, and normally it's one or two people beating on one mob.

Oh well though, It's going the way it's going to go, and it doesn't upset me, but my observation is that higher level mob's have way to many hp compared to their con, it seems to me that most mob's as it stands now it seems that it takes about 6 times longer to take high level mob's down without WoP's. Even if it was twice as long, it would be a major improvement.

I agree. If I'm using the best DPS weapon in the game, I should be able to compete with the guy with the best stat damager in the game and we should be able to kill the mob in roughly the same amount of time, all other things being equal.

A potential nerf to w/p wouldn't be necessary at all if it wasn't for the silly high HP that simply add no fun or play value.

Step 1. Leave WoP alone (or you can go with Impact's suggestion about an on 20 effect... I don't care really)

step 2. Fix Stat Damage. Con Kills the rest make the critter helpless... that means no MOVING no Attacking and no Casting... none of this he's out of Str and still hits me for 30 damage stuff


step 3. Reduce certain mob HP to a reasonable number... this whole 5k hp for a mob on normal is crazy.


step 4. Work on more important stuff


Aesop

Best solution I've seen.

[Dracolich]

Easiest solution that seems workable.

Killing mobs through Con damage is vastly superior than straight DPS at end game. Let's face it, when one option is so far and above the others then it is time to take a look at it.

There should be more than one viable way to fight mobs at end game, more options makes for a better game.

The only reason it is superior is their con scores do not reflect their HP as it should be. In PnP it would be almost an equal time to DPS a critter with a 30 con as it would be to knock out his 300hp. When that 30 con critter has 10k hp what do you think people will do. We have greensteel weapons that are critting over 200hp+ the devs dont want their minions one shotted so they bloat up their HP, forgetting to increase their con respectivly.

It all goes back to the beginning of the game were we had too good of loot for our level, and it has gotten exponetially worse.

The answer to me isnt to change stat damage, it is to change the creatures and the greensteel items that are driving the HP skyward. Oh fix the khopesh