Rogue: Assassin and Mechanic (Official Preview)

[wamjratl1]

Well a +5 greater bane in the hands of an Assasin would tend to confirm more often than a +1 vorpal right? Then again, in the end game vorp-fest few do nearly as much damage as a sneak-specced rogue, even with 40% hate reduction, so sneak attacks are few

At least unitl I finish my Radiance Rapier...

[Junts]

Even ignoring that constructs are a low-priority enemy, that's quite a bit worse than Smite Evil because the bonus damage is multiplied on crits. Smite Evil is mostly used on things which are succeptible to crits, so the +16 damage bonus is equivalent to +22 when you factor in the chance of a khopesh crit (and that's without any rank of Exalted Smite).

True, there's a chance that the rogue will have previously used Wrack Construct, but that's yet another button to press, and something that can fail. Suggestion: Give Smite Construct 100% penetration of construct fortification, for that attack only.

Based on what Assassin and Hunter of the Dead got, we can assume that Mechanic3 will give you a chance to insta-kill constructs on a natural 20.


Regarding the buffs to Rogue Mechanic
I don't think that a burst DPS effect against constructs has much value. Even within the limited objective of fighting constructs, rogues of level 9-16 mostly use Smiting weapons to accomplish this; adding DPS from a few smites probably won't have any benefit, because the construct will probably fail a Smite save before its hp get low.

Suggest to fix that: Give Mechanic rogues a way to worsen the Smiting saves. For example, Smite Construct could debuff the target construct with -4 Fortitude for 60 seconds. Also, give Smite Construct +1 crit range (like Exalted has)

16? I am confused, the smite damage added equation is 'based on' level and is equal to 10 + ((pallylevel-1) * 3)

a level 16 paladin adds 55 damage on smite evil; before criticals, which is why it's good, and still useful even on undead/etc.

The low number of uses and opportunities to use this ability are what make it lackluster; though in theory, with wrack construct, they could crit smite.

[Angelus_dead]

Rogue Assassin III:
Prereqs: Rogue level 18, Rogue Assassin II, Sneak Attack Accuracy IV, Sneak Attack Training IV
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: Your lethality is unmatched in battle. Grants an additional +2 bonus to damage on critical hits (before multipliers), +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and Fortitude saves against poison. Also, any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (natural 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make has a chance of producing a lethal strike will kill most living targets.

I am concerned about unpreventable overkill from the semi-vorpal passive feature, and wonder if it should be a toggle.

There are various scripted objectives where killing a hostile creature with a single lucky hit is a bad thing, or even a failure thing. Sleeping Dust Lie is one clear example, but there are other situations when a rogue might want to attack a monster, but not kill it (Hound of Xoriat, or unknown future quests). Vorpal weapons can be intentionally swapped-out on those occasions, but Assassin 3 looks like it will be permanent.

[riexau]

16? I am confused, the smite damage added equation is 'based on' level and is equal to 10 + ((pallylevel-1) * 3)

a level 16 paladin adds 55 damage on smite evil; before criticals, which is why it's good, and still useful even on undead/etc.

The low number of uses and opportunities to use this ability are what make it lackluster; though in theory, with wrack construct, they could crit smite.

I remember spending hours of play testing before finally figuring out that formula lol.

Makes me wish I still had my level 10 pally kicking around. He'd probably still be level 10 though.

[Deathseeker]

I am concerned about unpreventable overkill from the semi-vorpal passive feature, and wonder if it should be a toggle.

There are various scripted objectives where killing a hostile creature with a single lucky hit is a bad thing, or even a failure thing. Sleeping Dust Lie is one clear example, but there are other situations when a rogue might want to attack a monster, but not kill it (Hound of Xoriat, or unknown future quests). Vorpal weapons can be intentionally swapped-out on those occasions, but Assassin 3 looks like it will be permanent.

This is a very good point.

[Turial]

I am concerned about unpreventable overkill from the semi-vorpal passive feature, and wonder if it should be a toggle.
....

/Agree

A highly trained assassin would be able to prevent the accidental death of a target should they want the target to live.

[Pwesiela]

I am concerned about unpreventable overkill from the semi-vorpal passive feature, and wonder if it should be a toggle.

There are various scripted objectives where killing a hostile creature with a single lucky hit is a bad thing, or even a failure thing. Sleeping Dust Lie is one clear example, but there are other situations when a rogue might want to attack a monster, but not kill it (Hound of Xoriat, or unknown future quests). Vorpal weapons can be intentionally swapped-out on those occasions, but Assassin 3 looks like it will be permanent.

DANG IT A_D!!

I thought I told you to stop making sense!!!

Very good point.

[moorewr]

I am concerned about unpreventable overkill from the semi-vorpal passive feature, and wonder if it should be a toggle.

There are various scripted objectives where killing a hostile creature with a single lucky hit is a bad thing, or even a failure thing. Sleeping Dust Lie is one clear example, but there are other situations when a rogue might want to attack a monster, but not kill it (Hound of Xoriat, or unknown future quests). Vorpal weapons can be intentionally swapped-out on those occasions, but Assassin 3 looks like it will be permanent.

Should it be a stance, do you think?

[Angelus_dead]

Should it be a stance, do you think?

One interesting way to do it would be to look to the D&D rules, and give Assassin2 a toggle which turns their death effects (whether active or passive) into paralysis attacks.

That way, the default state is fatal attacks (which you probably want), so you won't accidently miss out on kills if it got reset somehow. And the Assassin class gains a little more flexibility for special encounters.

[moorewr]

One interesting way to do it would be to look to the D&D rules, and give Assassin2 a toggle which turns their death effects (whether active or passive) into paralysis attacks.

That way, the default state is fatal attacks (which you probably want), so you won't accidently miss out on kills if it got reset somehow. And the Assassin class gains a little more flexibility for special encounters.

I'm automatically in favor of this.

Given DDO's foibles it might end up being coded as two stances, but even so it would be attractive.

[drachine]

eladrin, i like the work you are doing on the rogue enhancements. it is an interesting ability. it's not bad at all. however, it doesn't seem like it will be all that amazing in higher level content. i just have two questions.

the first is did you guys considering giving us abilities like it actually states in the PnP rules listed here. while i realize all of these cannot be implemented, was wondering if you guys considered them?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)
At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

Assassin Spell List
Assassins choose their spells from the following list:
1st Level
disguise self, detect poison, feather fall, ghost sound, jump, obscuring mist, sleep, true strike.
2nd Level
alter self, cat’s grace, darkness, fox’s cunning, illusory script, invisibility, pass without trace, spider climb, undetectable alignment.
3rd Level
deep slumber, deeper darkness, false life, magic circle against good, misdirection, nondetection.
4th Levelclairaudience/clairvoyance, dimension door, freedom of movement, glibness, greater invisibility, locate creature, modify memory, poison.

2nd question i have is about the rogue special abilities or feats rogues get at level 10, 13, 16 and 19. in the rules it says rogues may choose a regular feat in place of a rogue special ability or feat. i am just wondering if you guys have any plans to let us do this in the future. as it stands now, rogues eventually end up with all the same special abilities or feats anyway. by level 19 everyone will have the same rogue special abilties or feats. we should be able to build our characters how we want. is this on the docket to be changed in the future?

it's listed here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm

[query]

MAYBE it might have been better for one option as a refreshing clickie a la Smite Evil (I KNOW there are too many) for assassins to sneak attack undead and/or mechanics to do the same with constructs (as per the 3.5 spells gravestrike and golemstrike now moved to the 3.5 spell compendium.)

But can't say I am considering paying more AP for something even more expensive than paladin requirements, sans feats.

And ditto to choose any qualified feat for those special feat grantings instead of MUST choose the same rogue abilities. If I wanted WoW or AoC, I would have played that (well, assuming AoC would be around when I made that decision )

[Thoreg]

All I have to say is blahh.

[drachine]

eladrin this is a great addition. however, every way of assassin 1, 2 & 3 gives a bonus to bluff which still remains a useless skill. besides a few NPCs, one of the best skills in the game for rogues is useless.

improved feint is pretty useless in that it is not an attack and the time length that creatures stay bluffed is so short that you can hardly make an attack in that time window.

many have said this before so, i appreciate way of the assassin 3, but gives bonuses to useful game skills. that's my only gripe.

[skraus1]

Instead of vorpals, could Assassin 3 be changed to Sneak attack + confirmed natural 20 = assassinate attempt.

It would add 1.75 to damage per swing on average against vorpal immune mobs, which honestly isn't all much of a damge increase but would be considered fun by players.

[Coldin]

Actually, won't a vorpal be sorta useless by level 18?

Think about all the giants in the new quests that all have an undispellable deathward buff. Vorpal won't do anything against them, and I wouldn't be surprised to see that trend continue through later levels.

I'm a bit skeptical of the smite construct ability as well. With a limited ability to actually make critical attacks against a constructs, a big part of what makes smites so fun it lost.

I still think a way to bypass fortification for additional sneak attacks and/or crits on all creatures would be a nice addition to a rogue enhancement, even if it was divided into seperate enhancements based on creature type.

[Delacroix21]

Any chance we can get Way of the Acrobat 3 to use your Dex modifier for to hit and damage?


I dont understand why the show time buff even buffs dex, yet all our DDO acrobats are clumsy huge armed bodybuilders instead of agile well.... acrobats!

[Borror0]

I dont understand why the show time buff even buffs dex, yet all our DDO acrobats are clumsy huge armed bodybuilders instead of agile well.... acrobats!

There are a lot of non-quarterstaff Acrobat out there that like what the PrE has to offer other than the speed bonus with quarterstaff.

[Delacroix21]

There are a lot of non-quarterstaff Acrobat out there that like what the PrE has to offer other than the speed bonus with quarterstaff.

Right, and those builds also dont go 18 rogue for way of the acrobat 3 (let alone use quarterstaves like you said) so WHY should you care about Dex effecting quarter staves?


I am just training to make quarterstaves a more viable option as they would have far more synergy with a dex build then a strength one. Nothing will change for non-staff users anyway, so there is no reason to be sour.

[Velexia]

The chance is already less than 1/20th (needs crit confirmation, weak). Why stack another chance on top of that? That makes it basically useless... If it's a 50% chance say, that's one out of every 40 sneak attacks. You can forget about caring for that.

I'd rather have Hide in Plain Sight as well (real Hide in Plain Sight, hide while being observed).

If it was changed to A: Any crit, or B: 100% chance on a 20, it would be nice, not to mention, worth my AP.