Help for a new Cleric, please! (pure vs /monk)

[ThePage311]

Sorry to be asking questions that were probably answered months ago. I’ve spent a few hours this week reading and finally decided to ask for help. I would like to start a cleric, but indecision is preventing me from doing so. I have not played in about a year so a lot of the end content and new rules are unfamiliar or confusing to me. I can't figure out if I want to "risk" monk levels. The defense from AC and evasion seems like a huge boon. But giving up spell levels and DC makes me very concerned for the future. I don't really understand the pro's/con's of /monk and after reading forums for a few hours of the last week I still can't make up my mind.

With help I'd like to create a pure cleric that is setup, should I choose later, to splash monk. Changing feats is easy so I guess this is mostly a race and stat question.

Race:
Human - Extra feat and, always nice... especially if you want to reverse course later. Extra skill point for something...
Halfling - Nice defense bonuses... synergies well with monk?
Dwarf - Lots of HP has to be good
Elf & Drow - Not sure these offer as much as the other races

Stats:
Str - Meh, not sure I'd get much use out of this... except for hauling loot
Dex - How high should this be to keep evasion/monk stuff available for consideration?
Con - 12/14 I assume, depending on how I should spend for Dex/Int/Cha
Int - Just enough to cover concentration and... what else is needed really? diplo? balance?
Wis - 18 + level ups
Cha - Meh, I'd like to have more DV's but you can't have it all... probably dump this stat.

And lastly and perhaps most importantly; how much do I really sacrifice to be “prepped” for monk should I never end up doing it?

[Thriand]

The biggest sacrifice to going 2 monk is your gonna need a Superior Potency kama to make full use of the build. If you have on of these its an amazingly survivable build, high AC, high hp, high saves, and evasion with quickened heal is all but indestructible.

As far as race goes I'd consider Dwarf or Human, though halfling seems to be a popular choice.

Human: Gets an extra feat and access to human adaptability which allows for a relatively easy 40 wis, good hp.

Dwarf: Insane hit points, bonus SP from enhancements, and +5 to all saves vs spells via 6 AP into Dwaven spell defense (WAY BETTER THAN HALFLING LUCK!!!!!!!) and can still achieve 40 wisdom via abbot loot.

Halfling: +1 AC, +2 dex, and Halfling luck bonuses (still not as good as dwarven spell defence IMHO) but the -2 STR from wisdom stance and the -2 str from halfy plus the 25% hit to your pack load makes it a lot harder to stay at the light encumrance needed to maintain stance and AC

Drow: bleh roll something else

Elf: see drow

WF: see drow

Half Orc: <--- Obvious choice.

My Dwarf Cleric/Monk started with a 14 Dex and had yet to fail a save vs any spell on a 2 or better.
Saves Breakdown
9/4/9 Cleric levels
3/3/3 Monk levels
9/6/14 28 con, 22, dex, 38 wis (will be 30 24 40 when I get my abbot trinket) <-- this will vary per build though
2/2/2 Wisdom stance
5/5/5 Resistance item
2/2/2 Recitation/Head of good fortune
5/5/5 Dwaven Spell defence
4/4/4 GH
1/1/1 Resistance ritual
=40/32/45 (41 33 46 with abbot trinket and +3 tomes)

And if a 32 reflex isn't high enough for all the dwarf doubters, you can always take lightning reflexs as a monk feat for a 34 reflex.

[redraider]

I have a capped 16 human clr and an up and coming 14/2 halfling (10/2 now) and she is a blast.

I like halfling becasue if you are going to make an evasion cleric (let's be honest, the monk levels are all about evasion, toughness, and two weapon fighting) then you must make those evasion saves or the loss of those 2 clerics levels was worthless. The halfling gives you about +5 to reflex saves with everything factored in.

Dwarf will get you more hitpoints and more spell points with the dwarven enhancement lines, but the hit to save is not worth it in my opinion.

As for stats, I think this is how I started:

str 10
dex 17
con 16
int 8
wis 16
cha 8

This has turned out to be an excellent mix. I put all my lvl ups into Wis. At 12 I have a 30+ reflex save, 864 sps with a magi item (I have a wiz vii mask in bank for 13) and am very pleased. With dual vorps, dual wounders, and dual weak/enf I am very effective in melee as well as healing.

I think clermonks will rule stormreach by lvl 20. 18/2 will be awesome!

[Thriand]

Dwarf will get you more hitpoints and more spell points with the dwarven enhancement lines, but the hit to save is not worth it in my opinion.

How is +5 to ALL saves a hit? Even if only vs spells traps are easy enough to dodge and a 27ish Reflex vs traps is still respectable and trap DCs are ridiculously skewed on elite quests even for rogues with bonuses vs traps.

[Lifespawn]

How is +5 to ALL saves a hit? Even if only vs spells traps are easy enough to dodge and a 27ish Reflex vs traps is still respectable and trap DCs are ridiculously skewed on elite quests even for rogues with bonuses vs traps.

dwarven spell defense was for will based spells i thought?

either way halfling gets higher starting dex dex enhancments and the saves line

[Korvek]

dwarven spell defense isn't for all saves it's for will based saves

It's for all saves against spells. Which when translated into DDO-land, means all important saves.

Traps aren't necessary to save against, as there are remarkably few that can't easily be timed and avoided.

[Thriand]

dwarven spell defense was for will based spells i thought?

either way halfling gets higher starting dex dex enhancments and the saves line

ALL saves.... but a Dwarf start with higher con and doesn't have to dump points into str just to move around with a scroll in his inventory. A halfling can get 2 points higher on his reflex sure, but he has to spend a lot more action points to catch up with the dwarfs other saves and doesn't have acess to the Dwarven faith or as many toughness lines. All in all I'd say the dwarf is a much better deal.

[Angelus_dead]

Human - Extra feat and, always nice... especially if you want to reverse course later. Extra skill point for something...
Halfling - Nice defense bonuses... synergies well with monk?
Dwarf - Lots of HP has to be good
Elf & Drow - Not sure these offer as much as the other races

The reasons a non-melee-focused cleric might want to pick a certain race:

Human: Higher wisdom, extra feat (not very useful)
Dwarf: Extra hp, and without the healing penalty of being WF. Better spell saves.
Elf: Sword/rapier proficiency gives minorly better melee power. Better will saves.
Drow: Better than elf if you don't have 32 point builds.
Halfling: Allows higher AC for monk splash, but that's not helpful if you don't melee. Better generic saves. Jorasco marks allow more healing if you can afford 3 feats.
Warforged: Extra hp, and with more immunities than dwarves have. Better will saves.

[krud]

ALL saves....

That seems weird. They get a higher save vs a fireball than a fire trap? It is a spell, but still it seems you'd avoid damage they same way for both. Learn something new everyday...

[ThePage311]

The replies have been helpful and it sounds like I'm looking for a dwarven cleric. Now that I've got a race I wonder how best to spend my stat points. I think I should have an 18 wis because I'm looking forward to playing around with my spells... command, sound burst, all that good stuff. Like I mentioned though, I want to keep /monk available should I decide to go that way. 14 Dex enough to start with, or do I need to find a way to pull a 16? And what skills do I need other then concentration? How important is balance for instance?

[Thriand]

The replies have been helpful and it sounds like I'm looking for a dwarven cleric. Now that I've got a race I wonder how best to spend my stat points. I think I should have an 18 wis because I'm looking forward to playing around with my spells... command, sound burst, all that good stuff. Like I mentioned though, I want to keep /monk available should I decide to go that way. 14 Dex enough to start with, or do I need to find a way to pull a 16? And what skills do I need other then concentration? How important is balance for instance?

I'd probably go
8 14 18 8 18 6
or
8 16 16 8 18 6
Its basically a choice of 16 hp (20 at level 20)and 1 fort or 1 AC and 1 reflex. Just make sure you carry a STR item to stay at light encumbrance, and a +2 int tome at level 1 is always a good idea (can put the extra points in jump or balance). But theres a lot of room to work with, as long as you keep a decent wisdom and dex you can't go wrong.

[ThePage311]

Ok, last few questions and then I'm rolling my cleric!

What are the base feats I need for a capable healer?

I just realized you can get +Wis from a monk stance and +Wis from a monk enhancement... how much DC would I really be giving up?

What would I need if I did want to add melee ability? Do I need weapon finesse? I'd probably only use power 5 or stat weapons that are not crit reliant, right?

What do I give up if I use something other than a kama/quarterstaff/handwraps? What if I equip a shield or do TWF?

Can I cast a scroll if its held in my off hand? Can you set up weapon sets that include scrolls? If I can hold a scroll off-handed... can I still swing the weapon in my main hand?

What feats to use for Martial Art feats? Can these be respec'd if I change my mind?

[kinar]

Just from the HP perspective here...

My 14/2 halfling has 342hp and started with 14con (+2 tome, +6 item, toughness feat, racial toughness enhancements, IFL, +25 shroud)

342 should be plenty for any cleric...

[kinar]

Ok, last few questions and then I'm rolling my cleric!
What are the base feats I need for a capable healer?
I just realized you can get +Wis from a monk stance and +Wis from a monk enhancement... how much DC would I really be giving up?
What would I need if I did want to add melee ability? Do I need weapon finesse? I'd probably only use power 5 or stat weapons that are not crit reliant, right?
What do I give up if I use something other than a kama/quarterstaff/handwraps? What if I equip a shield or do TWF?
Can I cast a scroll if its held in my off hand? Can you set up weapon sets that include scrolls? If I can hold a scroll off-handed... can I still swing the weapon in my main hand?
What feats to use for Martial Art feats? Can these be respec'd if I change my mind?

Feats for capable healing = extend (not healing but buffing), emp or emp heal, max. Quicken helps as well but, imo as a healer, there is seldom a reason you should be getting hit to need quicken. On the other hand, if you plan to melee, quicken might be a better choice than extend, but imo, quicken takes too much mana for its use on a mana gimped cleric (mine is finally up to 1607 with tier3 shroud sp item, wiz7, and 38wis).

My spell DCs on my 14/2 are actually higher than my DCs on my 15/1 (cleric/sorc) human because I started him with 16wis instead of 18. realisticly, with the monk stance, the DCs are exactly the same if I hadn't gimped my healbot (neither has heighten). If I had heighten on my healbot AND 38wis, his DCs could get to be 1 higher than my 14/2 build (assuming the 14/2 also had heighten)

My 14/2 has weapon finesse, and TWF and usually doesn't need DP to hit stuff (only mob in game I have a hard time hitting are orthons).

You become uncentered if you equip other than qstaff/kama/wraps...which means -2wis (but +2str). On the other hand, if you use a shield, you lose your wis bonus to AC.

scrolls is a bit of a pain due to there not being many potency kamas available. Weaponsents cannot use scrolls. As a result, you have to use a different slot or a qstaff. which means equipping a scroll unequips your weapon. As a general rule with clerics, Always put your potency/devotion 1hander in your off hand so that you still have it equipped when you use a scroll. You cant use a scroll in your offhand. but if you have a scroll in either hand, you default to hand-hand attacks (sucks) instead of swinging whatever weapon is in yer offhand.

[maddmatt70]

You don't necessarily have to go two monk - I much prefer just 1. Evasion on a cleric although nice isn't really necessary, the second bonus monk feat is not that useful, I still get the +2 to wisdom, have 8th level spells, only lose about 100 sp or so, and still have the wisdom to ac.

[maddmatt70]

The reasons a non-melee-focused cleric might want to pick a certain race:

Human: Higher wisdom, extra feat (not very useful)
Dwarf: Extra hp, and without the healing penalty of being WF. Better spell saves.
Elf: Sword/rapier proficiency gives minorly better melee power. Better will saves.
Drow: Better than elf if you don't have 32 point builds.
Halfling: Allows higher AC for monk splash, but that's not helpful if you don't melee. Better generic saves. Jorasco marks allow more healing if you can afford 3 feats.
Warforged: Extra hp, and with more immunities than dwarves have. Better will saves.

Sorry but the extra feat for a human is very useful. The warforged has a -2 to wisdom which is a huge negative. Really the decision comes down to human or halfling although dwarf is o.k especially if he goes pure. If he wants to melee then elf is also an option. Drow is an option if he doesnt have 32 pt builds...

[redraider]

Take the evasion! Play the cleric that does the swim in Crucible where the evasion rangers fear to swim. Play the cleric that w/e the living spells in kobold. Play the cleric that is WAY more fun to play than the 15/1 clermonk.

You play for fun and not just to watch the party's red bars right? A clermonk with a +30 reflex save is MUCH more fun to play.

You can still be primary healer and low end melee, but add that extra bit of fun that most pure clerics miss.

Example: You jump into Necro Elite (delara) run as last man at lvl 8 (6/2). They didn't bring a rog and before you even get in, half die in the fire trap (noobs, I know, but not the point, we don't always run with uber's) and the other half get chewed up by the wights. The clermonk jumps in, grabs all the agro, runs the wights through the fire trap 3 or 4 times, all the wights die a horrid firey death. You raise the party. they praise your resourcefulness and you feel great about yourself and your toon.

I know, a lvl 8 pure cleric would have just called everyone back and raised them one by one, but where is the fun and adventure in that???

Make the build thats a blast to play...

[Phidius]

Take the evasion! Play the cleric that does the swim in Crucible where the evasion rangers fear to swim. Play the cleric that w/e the living spells in kobold. Play the cleric that is WAY more fun to play than the 15/1 clermonk.

You play for fun and not just to watch the party's red bars right? A clermonk with a +30 reflex save is MUCH more fun to play.

You can still be primary healer and low end melee, but add that extra bit of fun that most pure clerics miss.

<snip>

Make the build thats a blast to play...

/signed