Implementing Artificers in DDO - the Bufficer/Constructificer/Repairficer

[Aspenor]

DDO is missing an important core Eberron campaign setting class, the artificer. While the primary power of an artificer, crafting, is currently missing from DDO, I believe that if the devs find a true crafting mechanic too hard to implement (or, IMHO, too broken) that they can still implement the class, albeit only the combat facet.

The problem that we run into is that the major artificer benefit, free crafting feats, become useless. Over the course of progressing to level 20 artificers gain, for free, scribe scroll, brew potion, craft wonderous item, craft homunculus, craft magic arms and armor, craft wand, craft rod, craft staff, and forge ring. Not only this, but their bonus feats at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 can only be spent on feats from a short list, similar to wizards only being able to take metamagics or spell foci with their bonus feats. Artificers may either choose a metamagic, or: Attune Magic Weapon, Craft Construct, Exceptional Artisan, Extra Rings, Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan or Wand Mastery. The bonuses for all of the above feats except extra rings and wand mastery are void in DDO. Wand Mastery in DDO would be nigh useless, and a bad waste of a feat.

It is my opinion that artificers should be focused on another aspect: creating mechanical pets, buffing themselves, their pets, or others, and healing constructs. This would require that Turbine eliminate the problems we have with pets today, however. These problems include only being able to summon one pet at at time, and pet AI issues. Instead of bringing in crafting (unless that's an achieveable goal, then I'm all for crafting!), give artificers "craft construct" at level 1. A level 1 artificer should be able to control 2 iron defenders. As the artificer progresses in level, these constructs should become more powerful and more numerous.

Here's just a conceptual progression that obviously is no more than a skeleton:
Level 1- 2 iron defenders
Level 2- 3 iron defenders
Level 3- 4 iron defenders
Level 4- 2 mithral defenders
Level 5- 3 mithral defenders
Level 6- 4 mithral defenders
Level 7- 2 adamantine defenders
Level 8- 3 adamantine defenders
Level 9- 4 adamantine defenders
Level 10- 2 Flesh Golems
Level 11- 3 Flesh Golems
Level 12- 4 Flesh Golems
Level 13- 2 Stone Golems
Level 14- 3 Stone Golems
Level 15- 4 Stone Golems
Level 16- 2 Iron Golems
Level 17- 3 Iron Golems
Level 18- 4 Iron Golems
Level 19- 2 Shield Defenders
Level 20- 3 Shield Defenders

The artificer's infusions would be used for buffing the party, buffing his pets, and healing his pets.

Artificers would also fulfill a trapsmith role, and would be another class with the UMD class skill.

Maybe I'll think of more later, but I gotta get back to work. Comments welcome.

[MrCow]

The artificer's infusions would be used for buffing the party, buffing his pets, and healing his pets.

And once reaching level 16 I'm sure blade barrier would be in heavy use on an Artificer.

[Aspenor]

And once reaching level 16 I'm sure blade barrier would be in heavy use on an Artificer.

probably, i suppose I could have used the word "primarily."

[Aspenor]

***!!! nobody wants to have +5 weapons and armor at level 5? nobody wants reptilian bane weapons at level 1??

[Sojourner]

I like that.



Another possibility would be to add an ability to "buff" weapons/items while in a dungeon.

Wasn't there a spell where you could take one arrow and make fire arrows, but only while in a dungeon?

Something similar to that -- you show your rusty shortsword to the artificer while in a mission, he buffs it with "+1 Kobold Bane", and it keeps that while in the mission.

[Aspenor]

I like that.



Another possibility would be to add an ability to "buff" weapons/items while in a dungeon.

Wasn't there a spell where you could take one arrow and make fire arrows, but only while in a dungeon?

Something similar to that -- you show your rusty shortsword to the artificer while in a mission, he buffs it with "+1 Kobold Bane", and it keeps that while in the mission.

yes, that is exactly what i meant by party buffing. the artificer can give enhancement bonuses to items, such as the level 1 infusion which gives a +1 effect to a weapon, meaning things like flaming, shock, or bane. Fighting trolls? The artificer can give you a flaming giant bane weapon at level 1. You only have +2 armor? With a 3rd level infusion it can be +5.

Not to mention all the construct-only buffs to use on your pets and warforged. Stone construct is like stoneskin but available earlier.

[rimble]

I haven't given much thought to the implications of this, but I thought it'd be neat if they could recharge an item or two between shrines...basically reset the clickies on an item or two.

[Angelus_dead]

It is my opinion that artificers should be focused on another aspect: creating mechanical pets, buffing themselves, their pets, or others, and healing constructs.

Yes, I had written-up a proposal for Artificers in DDO, and making them a pet class (instead of a magic-item crafter) was central. I never posted it on here because... well, why bother? There's no druids yet, so suggestions for new classes are beyond vaporware, especially because it would take some serious reprogramming the game engine.

I'll give you the key concepts from my design, though.

* The artificer's pets are called "Homonculi".

* You gain 1 homonculus at level 4, and another at every 4 additional levels.

* You can only deploy 1 homonculus at a time. The others wait in a portable hole (and self-repair in there). The cooldown to swap homonculi is substantial (60 sec), and it also takes 5 sec to power them on.

* You have feat icons for Homonculus Follow, Homoculus Defend, Homoculus Attack, Homoculus Special Action, etc. They're mostly similar to the icons on the hireling bar, except you put them in your normal character bars.

* The homoculus doesn't appear in the party list, so you can summon it regardless of if the group is full. You could even control a hireling at the same time. You have a special feat to target your homoculus, instead of pressing F6.

* Types of homoculi are mechanical dog, scorpion, adamantine-warofrged, iron golem, and smaller warforged titan. They require a certain number of class levels to qualify (Titan is obviously a high-level choice). Different choices have different stats and focuses, plus special attacks.

* Each homonculus has Build Points on it that are used to get improvements like Action Points for a player. They gain more BP as you level. Those can be spent for better stats, featlike improvements, AC, HP, DR< whatever. You can respec the BP at an artificer trainer.

* Your homonculus can wear Handwraps and Docents. They stay in your inventory, but you equip them onto the creature to improve it.

* Starting at level 9, you can spend 30 spellpoints to directly control the homonculus. During that time, the artificer character is steered with the Homonculus control feats, so your body can automatically follow along (which is crucial, because the control has limited range). Although your WASD keys and attack/interact mouse buttons are steering the Homonculus, icons for spells and wands and such are still active, and cause the artificer to cast it on your selected target.

* When artificers shop for consumable magic items, the price is determined by the better of their Repair or Haggle modifiers.

[JakLee7]

I would like to see 2 basic paths for Artificers & both are mentioned:
1. Homunculous summoner - (1 creation, follows you around everywhere til it dies, expensive to summon in actual items & money; you could take a hint from DII and use a magic item as part of the cost of summoning & the Homunculous would be "upgradeable" with feats (think like paladin auras) and temp item effects (want him to have wounding attack - "feed" him a wounder & for X amount of time he has the wounding ability like he is weilding a wounding weapon).

2.The other "path" would be swarm style - with clockwork creations like defenders. less direct control, also less costly as they could be "created" and work on a timer (like summons).

No matter which "path" you go I think the recharge Clicky idea is great too. I think similar to the overlap but differences in Bard spells vs sorc/wiz spells would apply here as well with the Artificer - that is some spells it shares with other arcanes (repair spells, mm, knock, ect) and some it does not get (FOD for example) while also having some "unique" spells that only artificers have access to.

IMHO this class really should be next focus after Druids are completed!

[Chaos000]

I think it would be kind of nice if they introduced a new class by making them a hireling first.

artificer's (until they figure out what they want to do with crafting) would work out as a hireling that would mesh well with warforged characters out there

[Angelus_dead]

want him to have wounding attack - "feed" him a wounder & for X amount of time he has the wounding ability like he is weilding a wounding weapon

That's why my proposal allowed homonculi to equip handwraps and docents. Need a specific magical effect for your pet's attacks? Find the matching handwrap and attach it to your construct.

In that viewpoint, handwraps don't necessarily go on the hands, and instead are magic items that can be carried to give bonuses to whatever natural or built-in weapons a character has. Handwraps would be used by monks, druids in wildshape, and homonculi.

[JakLee7]

That's why my proposal allowed homonculi to equip handwraps and docents. Need a specific magical effect for your pet's attacks? Find the matching handwrap and attach it to your construct.

In that viewpoint, handwraps don't necessarily go on the hands, and instead are magic items that can be carried to give bonuses to whatever natural or built-in weapons a character has. Handwraps would be used by monks, druids in wildshape, and homonculi.

except I would like to see it eaten.

I think that if we had a class that actually is expensive to run WELL that it might really make some old skoolers give it a try simply because have money to burn to try things out
but that is just MHO

[Angelus_dead]

I think that if we had a class that actually is expensive to run WELL that it might really make some old skoolers give it a try simply because have money to burn to try things out
but that is just MHO

That would be terribly hard to balance. The DDO devs have enough trouble balancing things already... adding in an item-sink character powered by eating weapons wouldn't make it any easier. (For a comparison, look at WOW's problem with the Warlock class, which is that game's only class powered by consuming items)

As you mention, that new class would be more attractive for players who already have a bunch of loot accumulated- well, that would hardly be fair to new subscribers who might also want try the class!

[JakLee7]

well the thing of it is; you wouldn't ALWAYS have an item sink, as long as you keep the Homonculous alive it would keep the same attribute, but it COULD be a huge sink depending on alot of play issues. I see it more like the golem from DII; check that one out if you are unfamiliar with DII. It was not overpowered per se, and it was nice to find some item you know your class can't use but works very well for adding an effect to your golem. Since you only have 1 effect at a time in force on your Homonculous then it would only be a serious sink if

1. it dies often
2. you constantly find yourself changing out abilities by "feeding" it


but yeah, I can see what youre saying, I just don't agree

[Angelus_dead]

2. you constantly find yourself changing out abilities by "feeding" it

It'd be pretty horrible if the only way you could switch your pet from con damage (for minions) to DPS (for boss) is by destroying one weapon of each type...

[Vanda]

The artificers has two class feats that would fit perfectly into DDO.

Metamagic Spell Trigger: You spend additional charges on a wand to apply metamagic feats such as extend, empower and what not.

Metamagic Spell Completion: You increase the DC of the UMD check to apply metamagic feats to scrolls.

With the tons of wands and scrolls in this game, this lends itself perfectly to the artificer. Suddenly those 10th level fireball scrolls can be empowered instead of just vendored. The artificer could throw out quickened heal scrolls to back up a cleric. Enchancement lines could be created to aid the person that centers on this play style.

If true D&D crafting was put in place, the only thing missing would be gnomes to staff the shops.

[Quanefel]

I think I like this idea for this class to be added to the game. Although I do not know much about it, I just read some information that might help make this class a viable option in game for a class.

A way to look at them as Master Crafters. At some point we will get Crafting that all can use but an Artificer will be a master at it, he will be able to make better crafted items and add things with his abilities. This would make an Artificier a desired class not only in quests but to bargin with to allow players to get an item crafted more than just crafting would allow.

As far as questing, they will have to "consume" a certian base cost magical item to recharge his temp power points for use in questing/raiding only. Crafting using their feats would be a separate set of power points that would only be used outside of quests in certian places such as a Crafting altar or inside a guild house if that was put into the game. Back to questing. Each time they enter a quest they get a certain base temp power point pool much like monks get with Ki. But in order to fill that temp power point pool they must consume a base cost magical item. Players will more than likely hand over useless magical treasure if it will benifit them with an Artificer uses their powers within quest to help them and party out. They can also carry extra useless magical items to bring up that temp power pool. Furthermore when using a shrine, they can get that starting temp power pool back as though they just entered the quest/raid like a Monk's Ki.

Their in-quest powers as far as I read are temporary to be used much like spells with durations, casting time, etc. They can also make use of Homuluclus or whatnot that would work much like any summon monster. With it being able to be used a certian number of times per day. Of course as the Artificer gains levels, so does the HD and powers of their summoned creations gain slightly in power as well. This way it is not always around and if it does die, you can wait for your timer to run down so you can summon a fresh one at full hit points to be used again. It might open up the summon construct dog enchantment to let them make better use of it, extra uses per day of it, etc.

I have more ideas but I think it would be a great addition to our classes if we can have this added. I did like some of the Prestige classes they can have and the great amount of skills, powers they will make use of. Most look as though it is steering a potential player to remain a full Artificer class rather than multi-class to any great extent. Possible but not really something a person would want to do.

[Angelus_dead]

With the tons of wands and scrolls in this game, this lends itself perfectly to the artificer.

That could be really bad, or at least a huge effort for the devs, because it means a class's power would be tied into the economy. That already happens twice in DDO, and both times it's been pretty negative for gameplay. But at least those have been fairly inadverdent, which isn't what would happen if Artificers were added with class features like that.

The two existing ways that consumable magic items are important for gameplay is Heal scrolls and Mnemonic Enhancer potions. Heal scrolls have nearly become a non-issue over time, as the healing ability of clerics has outstripped their power, and the scroll availability has become high. (Part of this is due to a specific fix made in a 5.X patch, when the cooldown on scrolls was increased to de-power them). Today Heal scrolls are considered a slow fallback healing availble to PCs who either have run low on cleric mana, or want to save it for later.

Mnemonic potions are a bigger problem, because they still have potential for great disparities in effectiveness between haves and have-nots. But at least they have a more limited supply- you can't simply go to a vendor and turn plat into a stack of 100 mana potions. You've got to use the AH, which might not work.

However, if you go ahead and give Artificers the ability to greatly boost up the DPS of wands and scrolls so they have some real combat power, you're opening a Pandora's Box for players to convert plat into burst damage without limit. You'd start to get a taste of some of the major design flaws that made Artificer such an unbalanced class in D&D games: a whole lot of power concentrated in magic items, not the character himself, so that the the character level can't be used to judge if he's appropriate for a quest or not.

Think of a simplified example. Say a sorc has 2000 sp, and for one 60-sp spell does d6*10*1.9*2.5 = 190 damage to a couple monsters. Also assume the monsters in ABC quest will be close enough so 3 can be caught in each spell, so there's 190*3 = 570 hp per 60 sp, or 9.5 hp/sp, or 19k hp damage per sorc. With a party of 4 the players have an assumed easy damage capacity of 76k from the group, so if the quest has 100 monsters, then each monster can have 760 hitpoints.

That's a very rough calculation, but it's how the designers can measure the potential ability of a character build against the challenges in a quest. Against monsters with 760 hp, a single sorc can beat close to 25 of them himself with Fireballs before needing a shrine. Obviously all kinds of factors will complicate things, but that's a starting target.

However, replace a sorc with an Artificer who has your proposed feats, and how do you even start to do the math? He's got fireball wands that are Maximized and Empowered, so d6*10*1.4*2.5 = 140 damage each, and say that takes 4 charges. One wand does 140*3*(50/4) = 5250 total, so it takes him 3.6 wands to meet the damage potential of a sorc. How many wands does he have? We have no idea. But I think if you can blow through charges that fast, they won't last long.

So what you've created is a class that's a decent blaster sometimes, and then when the wands run out is not. Think about how "fun" that would be to play: you're doing a quest with a group, using up your wand charges as you go, and watching your inventory shrink as you contribute to the challenges. Meanwhile all the other characters are mainly watching their spellpoints and daily abilities wear down, and they know that 30 seconds at any shrine will bring them back to full.

Mixing a class limited by consumables with classes limited by daily uses isn't likely to work well. One side or the other will seem overpowered.

Conclusion
Character features that enable expendable magic items to be used as primary DPS tools reduces the designers' ability to balance the game, because it makes the damage potential of an Artificer-like character unpredictable and without bound.

That is why the above proposals for Artificers have stayed away from features to boost magic items, and instead focused on the construct-building "robot master" aspect of the class.

[Angelus_dead]

Mixing a class limited by consumables with classes limited by daily uses isn't likely to work well. One side or the other will seem overpowered.

Conclusion
Character features that enable expendable magic items to be used as primary DPS tools reduces the designers' ability to balance the game, because it makes the damage potential of an Artificer-like character unpredictable and without bound.

With all of that said, there is an acceptable way to create character features that boost wand damage to substantial levels: the abilities must be limited not by extra charges or by increased UMD DC, but by a daily renewable resource of the character.

More specifically, an Artificer might be able to fire a Maximized Empowered Fireball by spending 40 of his own spellpoints to boost the wand. That way, the amount he can keep doing it is limited primarily to a certain number per shrine, instead of by the number of wands in inventory. By moving the ability to a per-shrine quantity just like every other DDO character feature, the class can then be designed to have balance against other DDO classes.

To not do that would be to make a class whose power is limited by the external economy of the supply of wands and plat, and that's uncontrollable.

If true D&D crafting was put in place, the only thing missing would be gnomes to staff the shops.

As the Artificer class shows, true D&D crafting was a mistake for the D&D game. But at least at a tabletop the DM can arbitrarily stop you from breaking the sanity of the world. D&D crafting shouldn't be allowed for an online game.

[Vanda]

With all of that said, there is an acceptable way to create character features that boost wand damage to substantial levels: the abilities must be limited not by extra charges or by increased UMD DC, but by a daily renewable resource of the character.

More specifically, an Artificer might be able to fire a Maximized Empowered Fireball by spending 40 of his own spellpoints to boost the wand. That way, the amount he can keep doing it is limited primarily to a certain number per shrine, instead of by the number of wands in inventory. By moving the ability to a per-shrine quantity just like every other DDO character feature, the class can then be designed to have balance against other DDO classes.

To not do that would be to make a class whose power is limited by the external economy of the supply of wands and plat, and that's uncontrollable.


As the Artificer class shows, true D&D crafting was a mistake for the D&D game. But at least at a tabletop the DM can arbitrarily stop you from breaking the sanity of the world. D&D crafting shouldn't be allowed for an online game.

The limited boost is fine, I don't have a problem with that. The class features I pulled from the ECS have a limit of doing them 3+Int mod times a day, so that fits well.

I see your point regarding the unknown damage consumables could produce, but keep in mind that many wands and all scroll are produced at the lowest caster level possible. I still think that such a feature would make scroll and wand consumables useful beyond cashing in for a few plat at the bar.

In regards to true crafting, it would be nice to see it implemented in a way that limites powerful items. Hard time limits could be set. For instance if rules state that it takes 7 days to craft an item, you can't craft anything else in that time. Per rules that character can do nothing BUT craft the item, but in an MMO, I would be wary of locking people out of using their characters. The full XP consumption should be there as well, per level. The problem is at cap, the person can simply refill their XP bar via quests. I'm not sure where that leaves us, but most likely there would be a reasonable solution. I agree that it would need to be controlled tightly to ensure it does not break the economy.