Implementing Artificers in DDO - the Bufficer/Constructificer/Repairficer

[DoctorWhofan]

I haven't given much thought to the implications of this, but I thought it'd be neat if they could recharge an item or two between shrines...basically reset the clickies on an item or two.

now that's a neat idea!

[Aspenor]

I'm not sure where people got the idea that Turbine will *ever* implement a real, full crafting system. If they did, it would be a MAJOR MISTAKE to make artificers the kings of crafting. It'd create unbalance within the game, big time. Crafting may be the major feature of the PnP artificer, but it is ALSO the most EXPLOITABLE feature of the class. Trust me, I've been the artificer run amok. I toned it back out of mercy for my DM.

Turbine may have expressed interest in a "full" crafting system, however I wouldn't expect it. It would create a dramatic disparity between the "haves" and the "have-nots," much more so than is currently present in the game.

I advocate the artificer as "golemkeeper" because it keeps the playing field even.

[Aspenor]

Metamagic Spell Trigger: You spend additional charges on a wand to apply metamagic feats such as extend, empower and what not.

Metamagic Spell Completion: You increase the DC of the UMD check to apply metamagic feats to scrolls.

With the tons of wands and scrolls in this game, this lends itself perfectly to the artificer. Suddenly those 10th level fireball scrolls can be empowered instead of just vendored. The artificer could throw out quickened heal scrolls to back up a cleric. Enchancement lines could be created to aid the person that centers on this play style.

If true D&D crafting was put in place, the only thing missing would be gnomes to staff the shops.

The limited boost is fine, I don't have a problem with that. The class features I pulled from the ECS have a limit of doing them 3+Int mod times a day, so that fits well.

I see your point regarding the unknown damage consumables could produce, but keep in mind that many wands and all scroll are produced at the lowest caster level possible. I still think that such a feature would make scroll and wand consumables useful beyond cashing in for a few plat at the bar.

In regards to true crafting, it would be nice to see it implemented in a way that limites powerful items. Hard time limits could be set. For instance if rules state that it takes 7 days to craft an item, you can't craft anything else in that time. Per rules that character can do nothing BUT craft the item, but in an MMO, I would be wary of locking people out of using their characters. The full XP consumption should be there as well, per level. The problem is at cap, the person can simply refill their XP bar via quests. I'm not sure where that leaves us, but most likely there would be a reasonable solution. I agree that it would need to be controlled tightly to ensure it does not break the economy.

For the record, the artificer may use his metamagic spell trigger ability as many times as he pleases every day, the metamagic spell completion ability is limited by 3+INT mod. The difference is merely that the former applies to items such as wonderous items/artifacts/wands, and the latter applies to scrolls/schema.

True DnD crafting is a dream in this game, realistically. The more I think about it, the less I'm in favor of it. Artificers also have ways to circumvent the penalties for true to DND crafting that are not really replicable in DDO. Artificers don't worry about using XP to craft, and beyond level 10-ish they no longer care about how long it takes to craft anything, as they are carrying around a portable hole with a workshop inside, and a dedicated wright doing their crafting for them.

The original 3.5 artificer is broken, no doubt about it. Through crafting, an artificer can do ANYTHING that any other class can do, only the artificer does it better.

Food for thought - a level 20 artificer using RAW can turn undead as a level 30+ cleric, and a level 15 artificer can cast time stop.

[Aspenor]

The original 3.5 artificer is broken, no doubt about it. Through crafting, an artificer can do ANYTHING that any other class can do, only the artificer does it better.

Food for thought - a level 20 artificer using RAW can turn undead as a level 30+ cleric, and a level 15 artificer can cast time stop.

I'm sure some of you have seen this concept before, I didn't come up with it, but I'll break it down just for yucks:

Artificer crafts a Phylactery of Undead Turning, located in the DMG. This allows him to turn undead at a +4 level bonus. Using a UMD check, the artificer mimics the undead turning ability of a cleric. Utilizing nightsticks for Turning Attempts (as although he has mimicked the ability to turn, he still has 0 turn attempts, nightsticks give extra turns) the artificer uses a UMD check minus 20 in place of his cleric level for turning. A level 20 artificer will have 23 ranks in UMD, a UMD item (up to +30 to UMD checks ), a possible skill focus feat, and a charisma bonus (let's assume he only has 14 charisma, that's +2). That's a UMD skill check at a +58, with a +4 bonus from his phylactery putting him at 62.

In the above example, the artificer can turn undead as if he were a level 62 cleric if he rolls a 20.

[Zuldar]

I'm sure some of you have seen this concept before, I didn't come up with it, but I'll break it down just for yucks:

Artificer crafts a Phylactery of Undead Turning, located in the DMG. This allows him to turn undead at a +4 level bonus. Using a UMD check, the artificer mimics the undead turning ability of a cleric. Utilizing nightsticks for Turning Attempts (as although he has mimicked the ability to turn, he still has 0 turn attempts, nightsticks give extra turns) the artificer uses a UMD check minus 20 in place of his cleric level for turning. A level 20 artificer will have 23 ranks in UMD, a UMD item (up to +30 to UMD checks ), a possible skill focus feat, and a charisma bonus (let's assume he only has 14 charisma, that's +2). That's a UMD skill check at a +58, with a +4 bonus from his phylactery putting him at 62.

In the above example, the artificer can turn undead as if he were a level 62 cleric if he rolls a 20.

The problem with that is umd only let's you emulate the class feature for the purposes of items, umd doesn't let you actually use the class feature itself. Meaning he could use those items but would still not be able to turn undead.

[Aspenor]

The problem with that is umd only let's you emulate the class feature for the purposes of items, umd doesn't let you actually use the class feature itself. Meaning he could use those items but would still not be able to turn undead.

That's what the nightsticks are for Carry around 4 or 5.....viola...turn attempts.

PS - that's the thing, artificers don't NEED to have class abilities, they just fake it and use items for everything.

PPS - read the entry for the Phylactery of Undead Turning, it actually allows those that cannot turn to be able to turn undead, just assigns them no charges

[Vanda]

I really don't see some of PnP problems that you posted as being a problem in DDO. We still don't have the fly spell outside of very limited circumstances that NPC grant us. Restrictions on crafting would be inherit in the system to prevent your worst (or is it best) scenarios.

But all that is really moot. The system as we have it, while far from great, is good enough and is what I'm sure we'll stick in some form until the game ends. What I would like to see and what expect are completely different animals.

I still think that applying metamagic to consumable items would be feasable. As I said, reasonable restrictions I have no problem with. Even if the PnP says the daily only applies to completion items, there is no reason DDO can't do that on trigger items. There are tons of house rules here already and a few more well considered ones won't break the game.

[Chaos000]

I still think that applying metamagic to consumable items would be feasable. As I said, reasonable restrictions I have no problem with. Even if the PnP says the daily only applies to completion items, there is no reason DDO can't do that on trigger items. There are tons of house rules here already and a few more well considered ones won't break the game.

besides, a lot of infusions have a 1 min casting time which would definitely make sense to keep in DDO.
(i.e. stand still for 1 min to cast greater bane on weapon)

and if the infusion components were actually collectables, and magic items could be broken down for collectables to create items in the ritual altars that bind on pickup... would kinda make sense

... although it sounds like a whole lot of work

[JakLee7]

Sounds like ALOT of work, but makes very good sense.
I think that an artificer; much like a bard, could have a very welcome spot (in limited numbers) in many quests. With some buffing ability, pets (or whatever you wanted to call either the Homunculous or defenders), high UMD, and some limited personal crafting (you know, temporary, time limited, bound, ect) craftable items that along with some helpful abilities (like reset clickies,) that it could be a usefull class.

There is nothing inherantly wrong with a class that "uses" consumables (look at archer classes; even with 75% returning arrows you still have to replace some, what happens when you run out in the middle of a quest, you pick up a melee weapon & go to town; er keep fighting, whatever). With some creative design I think this could be one of the most creative classes to run.

[Zuldar]

That's what the nightsticks are for Carry around 4 or 5.....viola...turn attempts.

PS - that's the thing, artificers don't NEED to have class abilities, they just fake it and use items for everything.

PPS - read the entry for the Phylactery of Undead Turning, it actually allows those that cannot turn to be able to turn undead, just assigns them no charges

Phylactery of Undead Turning

This item is a boon to any character able to turn undead, allowing him to do so as if his class level were four levels higher than it actually is.

Moderate necromancy [good]; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, 10th-level cleric; Price 11,000 gp.

Eh, all it does is make your class level 4 higher for turning. Doesn't help you if you don't have it in the first place.

[Aspenor]

Phylactery of Undead Turning

This item is a boon to any character able to turn undead, allowing him to do so as if his class level were four levels higher than it actually is.

Moderate necromancy [good]; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, 10th-level cleric; Price 11,000 gp.

Eh, all it does is make your class level 4 higher for turning. Doesn't help you if you don't have it in the first place.

I suppose in this case, we'll just have to agree that depending on how liberal your interpretation of UMD, he may or may not be able to do it depending on the DM. Remember, the artificer is mimicking the ability to turn undead, so by making a UMD check he "fakes" the ability to turn undead. This qualifies him to use the item, and by "allowing him to do so at [CL+4]" bestows the ability to actually turn upon the artificer, stressing the part where it says "allowing him to do so."

Maybe I should put rules lawyer in my sig.

[Aspenor]

I suppose in this case, we'll just have to agree that depending on how liberal your interpretation of UMD

Let me show you what I mean real quick, here's the table of UMD DC's for various tasks:
Task Use Magic Device DC
Activate blindly 25
Decipher a written spell 25 + spell level
Use a scroll 20 + caster level
Use a wand 20
Emulate a class feature 20
Emulate an ability score See text
Emulate a race 25
Emulate an alignment 30

Note the bolded text. The artificer makes a 20 DC UMD check to emulate the ability to turn undead to be able to use the item. Since the text says that the phylactery says it ALLOWS the user to turn undead, it allows the artificer to turn undead.

Phylactery of Undead Turning

This item is a boon to any character able to turn undead, allowing him to do so as if his class level were four levels higher than it actually is.

Moderate necromancy [good]; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, 10th-level cleric; Price 11,000 gp.

I suppose it's not really even up to liberal UMD interpretation, it's right there.

The same mechanic can be used to allow an artificer to wildshape like a druid, utilizing the Druid's Vestment. He makes a 20 DC UMD check to emulate the class ability of the druid to wildshape. The vestment grants him one additional use of wildshape, and 0 + 1 = 1.

You have to remember that in PnP UMD is not just for scrolls and wands. It basically is built upon the idea that if you pretend "well enough" that you have a certain characteristic, you do.

[Zuldar]

Let me show you what I mean real quick, here's the table of UMD DC's for various tasks:
Task Use Magic Device DC
Activate blindly 25
Decipher a written spell 25 + spell level
Use a scroll 20 + caster level
Use a wand 20
Emulate a class feature 20
Emulate an ability score See text
Emulate a race 25
Emulate an alignment 30

Note the bolded text. The artificer makes a 20 DC UMD check to emulate the ability to turn undead to be able to use the item. Since the text says that the phylactery says it ALLOWS the user to turn undead, it allows the artificer to turn undead.



I suppose it's not really even up to liberal UMD interpretation, it's right there.

The same mechanic can be used to allow an artificer to wildshape like a druid, utilizing the Druid's Vestment. He makes a 20 DC UMD check to emulate the class ability of the druid to wildshape. The vestment grants him one additional use of wildshape, and 0 + 1 = 1.

You have to remember that in PnP UMD is not just for scrolls and wands. It basically is built upon the idea that if you pretend "well enough" that you have a certain characteristic, you do.

Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

UMD doesn't let you use the class feature itself, just items that are based on it.

[Aspenor]

Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

UMD doesn't let you use the class feature itself, just items that are based on it.

The catch here is that the items allow the use of the class feature itself.

In the example of the Phylactery of Undead Turning used in conjunction with a Nightstick, the nightstick grants 4 additional turn undead uses to any class that can turn undead. The artificer makes a UMD check to emulate the ability to turn undead, and then has 4 uses of turn undead due to the Nightstick he holds. The Phylactery of Undead turning grants +4 character levels any character able to turn undead, and since the artificer easily passes his UMD check to emulate the class feature turn undead, the artificer has four attempts to turn undead at a +4 bonus to his UMD check -20.

[Gelandor]

Wow, can we say thread necro?

[Aspenor]

Wow, can we say thread necro?

Well, since they're adding a new class (again) I figured I should get this back to the front, since artificers are a core class in the Eberron setting.

How can it be Eberron: Unlimited when it's not got a core class? That seems pretty limiting!!!

[StelionisIgnigenae]

I'm resurrecting this thread. Now that crafting is being iterated upon more and more with each update, with a huge crafting expansion in U9, who now thinks adding the Artificer class would be totally awesome, or totally game breaking and horrible? Would balancing the class for DDO make it worthless to play?

What I had in mind for the Artificer was, instead of buying enhancements with his action points, he uses them to power supped up crafting of items. This way the artificer has a limited number of items he could possibly make.

[wemery73]

i just hope they get crafting bonuses

[Nerate_Mireth]

Coming soon to Stormreach...Artificers! FINALLY...see link...

http://www.ddo.com/update11/#/

This is official!

[Requiro]

Since this thread was Necro I post my thoughts how Artificer can look like. This is my own pure speculation.

• Infusion
  
  • Act like spells, spells book contains Divine and Arcane spells
  • No Spell Point – instead something like KI Monk Ability or uses per rest like Bard Songs
• Homunculus
  
  • Upgraded version of Iron, Steel, Mithral, Adamantine Companion
  • You can have probably both
  • You can improve it by some Infusion and Enhancements
• Bonus feat on level 4,8,12,16,20 (from the special new list)
• UMD and Disable Device class skills
• +2 INT, -2 STR, Will save, ¾ BAB, 4 skill point per level.
• Item Creation
  
  • Imbues for weapons
  • You can Imbues your or friend weapon and your Pet (Homunculus)
  • Depends of character level and target.
• UMD: Additional bonus on level 1: +2, 3: +2, 7: +2, 13: +2, 19: +2 (total +10)

Like I said: this is pure speculation. Hope that this class will be well balance.