New WF toon

[~Sindaera]

Hey I have a question. I am thinking about a new WF toon - the first WF to really play higher than lvl 7 - but there is a point I dont know. The plan is for a 16 pala / 2 Rogue.
Now adamantine Body is not good for evasion. But the 1st rogue level is planned for somehwere around lvl 6-8 and the 2nd for lvl 12-16. So evasion is no biggie at least until I have both rogue levels. Now assuming I take adam body at lvl 1 can I in theory swap it later for mith body ??
Also he gets 14 dex at beginning and could get a tome as soon as I get out of the island. So he does not even meet requirements at lvl 1.

Any help please ? Thanks in advance.

[Noctus]

Hey I have a question. I am thinking about a new WF toon - the first WF to really play higher than lvl 7 - but there is a point I dont know. The plan is for a 16 pala / 2 Rogue.

Not a bad level split.

Now adamantine Body is not good for evasion. But the 1st rogue level is planned for somehwere around lvl 6-8 and the 2nd for lvl 12-16.

This is a bad order in which to take the rogue levels. you will loose 24 (!) skillpoints without any gain. Take the 1st rogue level as your 1st character level. As at 1st character level you get 4 times the skillpoints and can invest them in better class skills than a Paladin could.

So evasion is no biggie at least until I have both rogue levels. Now assuming I take adam body at lvl 1 can I in theory swap it later for mith body ??

Yes, you can swap

Also he gets 14 dex at beginning and could get a tome as soon as I get out of the island. So he does not even meet requirements at lvl 1.

What do you mean with requirements?
Neither Evasion nor Mithril body has any requirements.

Any help please ? Thanks in advance.

Answers in red.

[Impaqt]

If your not planning the rogue levels till later you might as well go Monk....

Evasion Splashes:

Go Rogue IF: You want to be a full Trapsmither
you really need to have a Skill thats specific to Rogue but not Monk (Open Lock, Intim)
Allignment is Restricted (Barb, Bard)

Go Monk: For EVERYTHING Else

[~Sindaera]

Thanks for the replies, were helpful.



Now adamantine Body is not good for evasion. But the 1st rogue level is planned for somehwere around lvl 6-8 and the 2nd for lvl 12-16.

This is a bad order in which to take the rogue levels. you will loose 24 (!) skillpoints without any gain. Take the 1st rogue level as your 1st character level. As at 1st character level you get 4 times the skillpoints and can invest them in better class skills than a Paladin could.

See I don't want another trap monkey. I agree to loosing the skill points which hurts quite a bit. Now I want to go 16 pala/2 rogue. But I also want to have Initmidate, haggle and UMD up as high as I can. And those skills btw are not available for monk, right ?
Anyway instead of a trap monkey I want to invest those skills in these areas. Now I am honestly not sure but you might be right that I can get more out of it when starting right away with the rogue. Just don't wan't to loose any points in the above areas.

So evasion is no biggie at least until I have both rogue levels. Now assuming I take adam body at lvl 1 can I in theory swap it later for mith body ??

Yes, you can swap

Thanks

Also he gets 14 dex at beginning and could get a tome as soon as I get out of the island. So he does not even meet requirements at lvl 1.

What do you mean with requirements?
Neither Evasion nor Mithril body has any requirements.
I know that evasion does not. But I tried to take mith body with a dex of 14 and it was not available. I upped it to 15 and voila there it was available.

[Impaqt]

See I don't want another trap monkey. I agree to loosing the skill points which hurts quite a bit. Now I want to go 16 pala/2 rogue. But I also want to have Initmidate, haggle and UMD up as high as I can. And those skills btw are not available for monk, right ?
Anyway instead of a trap monkey I want to invest those skills in these areas. Now I am honestly not sure but you might be right that I can get more out of it when starting right away with the rogue. Just don't wan't to loose any points in the above areas.

I find UMD to be less than exciting nowadays. Sure its nice, but you can still get to a very respectable UMD in this game without having it as a Class Skill. Plus, there are so many Clickies availabale....... Haggle is generally unecessary. I find its best to go for it or leave it alone... Unless you focus on it, the savings dont add up all that rapidly. You can always have a friend who does have a real haggle toon buy your supplies for ya.

Intim is interesting. If you intend to make a intimitank, then I agree your Plan for rogue levels is sound... But the question is this.. Can you get your AC/DR high enough to justify all the added aggro?

[~Sindaera]

I find UMD to be less than exciting nowadays. Sure its nice, but you can still get to a very respectable UMD in this game without having it as a Class Skill. Plus, there are so many Clickies availabale....... Haggle is generally unecessary. I find its best to go for it or leave it alone... Unless you focus on it, the savings dont add up all that rapidly. You can always have a friend who does have a real haggle toon buy your supplies for ya.

Intim is interesting. If you intend to make a intimitank, then I agree your Plan for rogue levels is sound... But the question is this.. Can you get your AC/DR high enough to justify all the added aggro?

Well let me see what the intimi skill is without Rogue: I get with a max CHA of 12 at lvl 1 and not taking any points extra in there in later levels a +1 right at the beginning. Adding 4 skill points at lvl 1 gets me to 3. let's assume pure Pala I can max it every level makes 1+2+15 = 18. Adding a +6 CHA item 21, put a +15 item on top gets me to 36.
Now having the Rogue it gets tricky. Taking Rogue at level 2+ I get 1 at level 1, max out both times I take the Rogue and have the CHA item and +15 item. Summed up I get the same 36 BUT I have the Rogue boost of at least +2 or +3 AND I can invest the points on Pala somewhere else and even get some sort of Rogue abilities. Ohhh and of course evasion.
Getting the Rogue level 1 it would be even more, could get +5 at level 1, and then max it out with 2nd Rogue level and invest some Pala skill points later. that again gives me another 15 + item + CHA item should get me to 38 plus boost, even better.
Hmmm does the Pala or WF have intimidation as a class/race skill ? didnt check that yet.

Haggle: Agree, that's why I have a bard to sell that lousy loot. Forgot that one
UMD: I want that skill to use wands/scrolls if possible. Makes it easier to solo some higher stuff if I get bored. And UMD i think I can get with a Rogue but not bard.

It almost seems I am screwing that idea and go for pala/monk/fighter mix, think I invest a bit time to look into that one....

[~Sindaera]

Intim is interesting. If you intend to make a intimitank, then I agree your Plan for rogue levels is sound... But the question is this.. Can you get your AC/DR high enough to justify all the added aggro?

Need to add another reply here:
What would be a nice setup for an intimitank ? Mean class wise. For sure rogue or monk for evasion. But go for more Pala levels or introduce fighter levels as well ? Haven't yet looked up the possible AC/DR enhancements for such a combo with a WF.

[Noctus]

See I don't want another trap monkey.

Nobody forces you to invest even 1 skillpoint in any trap related skill, just because Rogue was your 1st level.
You can max out Intimidate and UMD even when not taking Rogue 1st. its about having more ranks in other skills, like Balance, Jump, Haggle and so on, without loosing anything for this.
By going another way of taking the level you will have two absolutly identical builds at level 16, yet one has more skill points in other usefull skills.



I really think you need the CharGen from Ron, an extremly handy program for character planing:
http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO/


Just build your Paladin 14 / Rogue 2 in this program. One with Rogue 1st and then again at 11th level, and one with both rogue levels taken later. You will see the big difference.

Well let me see what the intimi skill is without Rogue:

Without Rogue your max Rank will be 9.5, so 9 effective. On this you add all the modifiers. A pure Paladin can not max out Intimidate.
With Rogue your max rank will be 19. The modifiers added on this base skill rank are the same as not taking Rogue.
---> Rogue splashing raises your effective Intimidate score by 10 points. Not to speak of Evasion, occasional sneak attacks for 1d6+3 extra damage, being ableto max out UMD and having much moreranksin other usefull skills.



P.S.
I dont know what was wrong with your character generator, but Mithril Body does not have any prereq, besides being Warforged.

[~Sindaera]

Nobody forces you to invest even 1 skillpoint in any trap related skill, just because Rogue was your 1st level.
You can max out Intimidate and UMD even when not taking Rogue 1st. its about having more ranks in other skills, like Balance, Jump, Haggle and so on, without loosing anything for this.
By going another way of taking the level you will have two absolutly identical builds at level 16, yet one has more skill points in other usefull skills.

Guess I did not think this part quite through, thanks for the hint. Just wanted to add up the skill points later on but will try this out for sure.

I really think you need the CharGen from Ron, an extremly handy program for character planing:
http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO/

I have it but either too dumb to use or w/e it was, could not really get used to it....

Without Rogue your max Rank will be 9.5, so 9 effective. On this you add all the modifiers. A pure Paladin can not max out Intimidate.
With Rogue your max rank will be 19. The modifiers added on this base skill rank are the same as not taking Rogue.
---> Rogue splashing raises your effective Intimidate score by 10 points. Not to speak of Evasion, occasional sneak attacks for 1d6+3 extra damage, being ableto max out UMD and having much moreranksin other usefull skills.

Sorry, error in my calculation - w/o the generator. Was investing 2 points each level but ur right only one is possible.

P.S.
I dont know what was wrong with your character generator, but Mithril Body does not have any prereq, besides being Warforged.

As said before did not use it. I tried it directly in the game and the mith body was somehow not on the list. That's why I came up with that question.
I just tried again and even with the lower Dex I get it now. I think the error was that I decided already for adam body. In that case the mith body disappears from the list and u only get it back when ur removing adam body from selected feat.

Thanks again. The hints were valuable in re-thinking this toon. Guess before investing any tomes I will play around a bit with the possibilities.

[lolwagon]

Hey I have a question. I am thinking about a new WF toon - the first WF to really play higher than lvl 7 - but there is a point I dont know. The plan is for a 16 pala / 2 Rogue.
Now adamantine Body is not good for evasion. But the 1st rogue level is planned for somehwere around lvl 6-8 and the 2nd for lvl 12-16. So evasion is no biggie at least until I have both rogue levels. Now assuming I take adam body at lvl 1 can I in theory swap it later for mith body ??
Also he gets 14 dex at beginning and could get a tome as soon as I get out of the island. So he does not even meet requirements at lvl 1.

Any help please ? Thanks in advance.

if you're planning on keeping those specific levels of class then you might want to consider having no dex and beefing up your int instead and then taking insightful reflexes. that way, if you take rogue later on, you will have far more skill points to disable, search, etc. and have a great reflex save but it would be at the cost of AC.
if ac is important then the only way to go would be pally/monk. it's really tough to roll out a good wf pally/monk without at least two +2 tomes at your disposal, though. (those being for wisdom and charisma.) in the pally rogue roll i mentioned you would be able to use str as your attack bonus instead of dex for better dps but the monk build would have to be a finesse dexter.
if you plan on being a pally/rogue dexter then i'd say it's fairly straight forward. just beef up your dex get about 14-16 con and try to not have sucky wisdom and charisma. (charisma being most important.) you can always swap those wf body feats out later on.

[Lifespawn]

if you're planning on keeping those specific levels of class then you might want to consider having no dex and beefing up your int instead and then taking insightful reflexes. that way, if you take rogue later on, you will have far more skill points to disable, search, etc. and have a great reflex save but it would be at the cost of AC.
if ac is important then the only way to go would be pally/monk. it's really tough to roll out a good wf pally/monk without at least two +2 tomes at your disposal, though. (those being for wisdom and charisma.) in the pally rogue roll i mentioned you would be able to use str as your attack bonus instead of dex for better dps but the monk build would have to be a finesse dexter.
if you plan on being a pally/rogue dexter then i'd say it's fairly straight forward. just beef up your dex get about 14-16 con and try to not have sucky wisdom and charisma. (charisma being most important.) you can always swap those wf body feats out later on.

dex can be a dump stat if he wants aslong as he gets the cha up his saves will still be high i don't suggest a dex lower than 12-14 tho 12 +1 rogue enh+1 tome+6 item=20