Dear Devs: Information please on Air Elementals

[Riggs]

I have never seen a developer post about air elementals that I can recall, and would like some clarification please.

Is there a game breaking reason knockdown had to be changed from pnp rules to make it impossible to stand up around them?

As it is now;

- the dc is so high most people cannot stand up for more than 2 seconds no matter what their stats.

- Balance skill, despite the name, doesnt help you stand up if you skill is higher than your str/dex bonus. And getting up after isnt a lot of help if you keep getting knocked down every 2 seconds and starts a fresh 6 second timer. Pnp rules show a reflex save not a dex save, which would let people stand up a lot more if that was the case in DDO. And the save dc in pnp is a LOT lower than it is in DDO.

- pnp Air elementals are like the way Genies are implemented in DDO currently. One form that can 'punch' characters, then for short periods of time, followed by several turns of rest, they can assume whirlwind form and try to knock people down. but the knockdown is an attack, not a area all around that causes auto-knockdown to anyone that is within weapon range. So the implementation of how they work in pnp already exists, and in theory could be changed for air elementals also.

- Air elementals are present in every raid and flagging set of quests except Vons and Titan(well and the Sub, but beholders are another annoying broken monster). Chains and Wiz king(for Queen), Sos, Reaver, Vale and Ritual. So they are pretty much impossible to avoid if you run anything added to the game since 2 years ago.

- overrun/knockdown/charge affects players even when the monster doesnt hit you. Charging Minotaurs, Mariliths that just wander by and knock down an entire party, and air elementals that knock down everyone within range, and zip around all over throwing entire parties down basically at will.

There are many things about DDO that people love, and love playing for long periods of time.

But when most players I know of get to a point where they run into air elementals, they start getting really angry at the game, and at Turbine for adding this monster to the game, and never changing it or taking them out despite numerous complaints.

Dear Turbine, if your intention is to make otherwise happy players really, really angry at you you are succeeding. If your intention is to make a monster so broken from pnp rules that capped characters that can beat up on a pit fiend run screaming from an air elemental sighting you have succeeded.

If your intention is to so break a monster and overpower them that it is seemingly no different than a pnp DM deliberately griefing the players at the table you have succeeded by a wide margin.

If the intention is otherwise, can we as players get some kind of timeline if there is going to be a change? or some kind of feedback as to why they are designed this way? So far I do not recall seeing anything official about them after much hopeful waiting for some kind of change, and something official would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
Riggs

[Griphon]

My guess is they needed a monster type to slow things down... With something that players couldn't save against, nor find a way around....

Example: They upped the HD of the Elementals in the Reaver raid... When it was 'too easy'.... Now it's significantly harder to CC the beasties or banish them. Why did they turn it up? Simple.. Too many Reaver Raids were being completed in 10M or less and they decided to 'fix' that..

Even though it's been stated over and again that: (paraphrasing) They have no intention of altering previous content as they see it as a waste of time.

[EinarMal]

Even though it's been stated over and again that: (paraphrasing) They have no intention of altering previous content as they see it as a waste of time.

Ahem unless is is anti-player adjustments that is. They continually go back and make old content more difficult over time, even content many levels below cap to challenge more cap players running through old content.

[Riggs]

Oh, and to state as well one of the reasons air elementals are so broken...

Everything in D&D is balanced in some way. Every attack has a defence, every defence has a weakness or a hole. Almost every DR has something that bypasses it. Monsters are strong at some things, weak at others.

A player could prepare defences against some attacks, or attacks vs some defenses. Potions, magic items, skills etc, there is a way past everything, a way to beat anything somehow.

Air elementals have no preparation. There is nothing a non-caster can do. Unless you can finger or destruct one the second you see it - your getting knocked down. No defence, no way around it, just pure knockdown over and over and over again.

It is not a reasonable option for someone to be told 'well just be a caster, or hide behind a caster'. Everything else in the game is beatable in some way, or some action you can take that helps. Saying sit back and wait for someone else to handle this is not a reasonable argument, or a balanced way to design a monster.

*Edit
As he said - old content is constantly being 'updated'. All the time. That quote was about raid flagging mechanisms for queen and vons.

[Turial]

....
Air elementals have no preparation. There is nothing a non-caster or non-acrobat rogue can do. Unless you can finger or destruct one the second you see it - your getting knocked down. No defence, no way around it, just pure knockdown over and over and over again.

It is not a reasonable option for someone to be told 'well just be a caster, or hide behind a caster'. Everything else in the game is beatable in some way, or some action you can take that helps. Saying sit back and wait for someone else to handle this is not a reasonable argument, or a balanced way to design a monster.
.....

Acrobat rogues can avoid being knocked down through their showtime buff which grants immunity to knockdown.

[sephiroth1084]

I don't know why the devs decided to remove the fire and earth elementals in the puzzle room only to replace them with air elementals. Honestly, wasn't everyone crying out for the opposite: replacing some of the air elementals in the puzzle room with earth and fire ones?

I honestly would have prefered for the elementals to gain Deathblock in this case. They really are the most irritating monster in the entire game, the least liked, and yet, they have proliferated, spreading throughout nearly all of the content. Couldn't we find something else to use?

It is very frustrating to play anything but a caster when there are air elementals about. The Reaver's Fate was a cakewalk before, and was boring for anyone that wasn't tanking or a caster/cleric. Now, it is no longer a cakewalk, but went from boring to frustrating for the non-casters, and has become frustrating for everyone else as well. Not exactly what I'd call a fix.

[RATRACE931]

cmon guys im sure they are "Functioning as intended" just like potions that dont prot or DC being bugged on grease and sleet storm or giant with 24 con but 3,500 hitpoints.

[baddax]

Acrobat rogues can avoid being knocked down through their showtime buff which grants immunity to knockdown.

I would also like to add that Everyone who gets "charged completely" is Immune to All Air elemental knockdown effects! Thats why its very important to get as many people charged and keeping charged as often as possible. If you are lucky then as the Casters are setting up CC then the melees can go in and get their chargees. After that its time to slice and dice. I prefer stat damagers because of the complete chaotic nature the raid atm. If you can weaken them enugh through stat damagers then when/if you loose your charge they will not be as bad to deal with, and the caster might even be able to get of some insta kills to boot. Lastly heightened Mind fog and dancing balls seem to work well for croud control of the eles.

[Riggs]

I would also like to add that Everyone who gets "charged completely" is Immune to All Air elemental knockdown effects! Thats why its very important to get as many people charged and keeping charged as often as possible. If you are lucky then as the Casters are setting up CC then the melees can go in and get their chargees. After that its time to slice and dice. I prefer stat damagers because of the complete chaotic nature the raid atm. If you can weaken them enugh through stat damagers then when/if you loose your charge they will not be as bad to deal with, and the caster might even be able to get of some insta kills to boot. Lastly heightened Mind fog and dancing balls seem to work well for croud control of the eles.

Ummm thanks....

I was however speaking of air elementals, in the game, all over the place. Reaver raid is only one quest, it just has a lot of them.

Kinda tough to get a charge in Chain of Flame. Or the Vale. or SoS.....

[xberto]

Air elementals have no preparation. There is nothing a non-caster can do. Unless you can finger or destruct one the second you see it - your getting knocked down. No defence, no way around it, just pure knockdown over and over and over again.

Now I don't like the air eles any more than the rest of you, however you can prepare. Bringing a caster is preparing. It's like saying there is no way to prepare for a trap filled quest because you don't want to bring a rouge.
And besides, there are alternatives to taking down air eles, perhaps less effective. A prepared group will all have a ranging combat alterntive. You spread out and range them. Of course bringing a fingerer is just so easy.

[baddax]

Ummm thanks....

I was however speaking of air elementals, in the game, all over the place. Reaver raid is only one quest, it just has a lot of them.

Kinda tough to get a charge in Chain of Flame. Or the Vale. or SoS.....

The reaver is the place where they are the most nuissance and not only because of the shear numbers. Others Air Eles. are Easily banished,charmed,fingered etc etc., However these New and improved Reaver eles. Seem to have developed quite a resistance to standard practice, similar to the way viruses become immune to penacillin.

[sephiroth1084]

I would also like to add that Everyone who gets "charged completely" is Immune to All Air elemental knockdown effects! Thats why its very important to get as many people charged and keeping charged as often as possible. If you are lucky then as the Casters are setting up CC then the melees can go in and get their chargees. After that its time to slice and dice. I prefer stat damagers because of the complete chaotic nature the raid atm. If you can weaken them enugh through stat damagers then when/if you loose your charge they will not be as bad to deal with, and the caster might even be able to get of some insta kills to boot. Lastly heightened Mind fog and dancing balls seem to work well for croud control of the eles.

True, but it does not last very long, takes some time to acquire, and can be impossible to acquire if the reaver spawns air elementals with one of his first charges, or spawns swarms back to back.

While I do appreciate that the devs have made an interesting and overlooked portion of the raid more necessary, it doesn't do much to change the fact that these are the most irritating creatures around, and that, even with this defense available, little can be done to deal with them, particularly in droves. Even a single air elemental can make for a very unpleasant play experience.

[GlassCannon]

While I do appreciate that the devs have made an interesting and overlooked portion of the raid more necessary, it doesn't do much to change the fact that these are the most irritating creatures around, and that, even with this defense available, little can be done to deal with them, particularly in droves. Even a single air elemental can make for a very unpleasant play experience.

Especially with no Arcane Support.

[Riggs]

Now I don't like the air eles any more than the rest of you, however you can prepare. Bringing a caster is preparing. It's like saying there is no way to prepare for a trap filled quest because you don't want to bring a rouge.
And besides, there are alternatives to taking down air eles, perhaps less effective. A prepared group will all have a ranging combat alterntive. You spread out and range them. Of course bringing a fingerer is just so easy.

That is not what I mean by preparing, and I tried to spell it out in a previous post.

Preparation is when YOU, and YOUR character, take some kind of action, bring some kind of item, turn on a skill, stance, or enhancement - to deal with a situation, monster, or puzzle etc.

It is not a valid agument to say, "Well to be prepared - dont be who you are, reroll a new character and bring that one instead, or just bring SOMEONE ELSE to deal with this problem."

Thats not preparation, thats saying "Anyone who is NOT x cannot handle this monster no matter what they do, what skills they have, items, potions, clickies, actions, abilities, there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO, so just BE someone else, or leave".

In D&D a high level character, of ANY class, can take steps, bring an item, set a trap, use tactics, and find a way to deal with something, as everything has a weakness. DDO you have very few tactics to use, a fraction of the items and spells that would be available to a paper character, and skills, saves, and monsters dont work the same way as in paper D&D.

So instead of having mutliple options in handling something, the ONLY response that people seem to have when defending elementals is; be someone else, or bring someone else. That is no way to design a game if you want any degree of balance or fairness.

It is not about "Oh something beat me", but because there is NOTHING you can do to stop them, other than being a caster/acrobat/ranger on a unreachable spot shooting at them. Every other class is completely pooched when fighting them, because you cant melee them (unless they are in a dancing ball, which goes back to 'bring a caster').

Air elementals cheat, and cheat hard, and it makes a LOT of people very angry each and every time they are encountered. And there is no game design reason they HAVE to be that way, as Genies are also air creatures, also have whirlwind form, but only use it sometimes. So the mechanics for the 'as they are in the pnp rules' way to handle them already is in the game...it is just not being used. I for one would like to know why.

[Riggs]

The reaver is the place where they are the most nuissance and not only because of the shear numbers. Others Air Eles. are Easily banished,charmed,fingered etc etc., However these New and improved Reaver eles. Seem to have developed quite a resistance to standard practice, similar to the way viruses become immune to penacillin.

As above, if the only way to handle them is 'bring a caster' thats not really useful to most players.

They are not a pain because the reaver ones are harder to kill. They are a pain because their knockdown mechanic is completely overpowered compared to anything else in the game.

Charm some air elementals in Ritual of Sacrifice. Now sit back and watch as NOTHING in that quest, including earth elementals which are next to impossible to trip can stand up while near them. When one charmed monster in a quest can take out EVERY SINGLE OTHER MONSTER IN THAT QUEST thats broken, and broken in a big way.

If players could summon air elementals instead of earth at level 9, the game would completely break, as nothing but red named monsters would ever be able to stand up again.

[Hafeal]

I love it when you actually have the chance to hit an elemental and on some extraordinary chance they fail their save and are paralyzed. Then you move in for the kill ... and get knocked down while they are paralyzed!

Awesome.

[Blazer]

The reaver is the place where they are the most nuissance and not only because of the shear numbers. Others Air Eles. are Easily banished,charmed,fingered etc etc., However these New and improved Reaver eles. Seem to have developed quite a resistance to standard practice, similar to the way viruses become immune to penacillin.

Actually I find the reaver is where they are the least troublesome simply because you CAN get a defense against them in the form of the charge. The air elementals in the fourth part of SOS are far more frustrating/annoying than the reaver ones.

[Turial]

....
It is not about "Oh something beat me", but because there is NOTHING you can do to stop them, other than being a caster/acrobat/ranger on a unreachable spot shooting at them. Every other class is completely pooched when fighting them, because you cant melee them (unless they are in a dancing ball, which goes back to 'bring a caster').....

Last I checked everyone could use a ranged weapon of some sort. Carrying a cheap wounding bow or crossbow will do wonders for your preparation for odd critters like air elementals. Will it be as easy as other methods...no but its still preparation for what may be and what you will eventually encounter.

[sephiroth1084]

Last I checked everyone could use a ranged weapon of some sort. Carrying a cheap wounding bow or crossbow will do wonders for your preparation for odd critters like air elementals. Will it be as easy as other methods...no but its still preparation for what may be and what you will eventually encounter.

Except that you will not kill the air elemental before it reaches you, and after it does, you may not have a chance to stand up again. For example, in Fleshmaker's, I got knocked off of the top area at the final boss, and was tossed around for 25 minutes by the 3 or 4 air elementals on the bottom. I got taken from over 400 HP to -10 only on natural 20s doing around 10 damage a hit. I could not stand long enough to use a Lay on Hands. And there wasn't a **** thing I could do about that. Nothing. And my party couldn't save me because they had to deal with the same up top.

[bobbryan2]

Last I checked everyone could use a ranged weapon of some sort. Carrying a cheap wounding bow or crossbow will do wonders for your preparation for odd critters like air elementals. Will it be as easy as other methods...no but its still preparation for what may be and what you will eventually encounter.

If by wonders, you mean it's still a terrible way of dealing with things. Especially with those high AC air eles that you can only hit on a 20 because you have an 18 dex.

See how long it takes to kill a named air ele, hitting only on 20s.

It's stupid... using a crossbow is stupid. They shouldn't be impervious to melee.