Barbarian Paths: A Dilema

[Stevo_AK]

Like most Barbarians I have closely watched all of the debating over the new berserker path vs. the critical rages and the quipping between both sides. What I have failed to see thus far is mathematical support for either side to resolve the issue of who outputs the most DPS and is better able to mitigate aggro of a mob. I understand that as a critical rage barbarian you have a greatly increased chance of obtaining a critical hit, and as a berserker barbarian you have an increased critical multiplier, this much is clear simply by reading the name/description of the enhancements. However, nobody as of yet has brought to light all if any of the variable that need to be considered when comparing the two paths. Some of these afore mentioned variables that need to be considered are, firstly, are we comparing two two weapon fighters or two two handed fighters? What weapon type is being used by these barbarians? It is common knowledge that the heavy pick has the potential of being the highest DPS weapon due to its natural x4 crit modifier, however its base damage will always be outshone by a great axe. As far as I am able to understand if you are comparing a two handed barbarian that has critical rage to the concept of the new berserker rage, the berserker will in the end outperform the critical due to the modifier. I have drawn this conclusion based on the fact that wielding a greensteel great axe a critical rage barbarian will obtain a critical hit on a 17-20 with a x3 modifier, whilst are berserker barbarian will obtain a critical strike on a 19-20 with a x5 modifier and potentially a +4 str modifier added to the base damage (+2). I would however like to see how a carnifex compares to a completed greensteel great axe.

Yet, when you consider heavy picks the debate seem to take a new turn, as you then have to compete with a deathnip. Firstly, for those of you that believe that a deathnip is "gimp", I would like you to supply me with the numbers to prove me wrong when I say that this is one of the highest DPS weapons in the game. I am not looking for posts that flame my claim with no basis, and provide personal opinion in Lu of facts that are proven from both experience and testing. When you are comparing two two weapon fighter barbarians, which seems to be the latest trend these days, both wielding death nips, I do not see how a berserker build can outperform a critical rage barbarian. As a critical rage barbarian you are obtaining a critical strike on a 15-20 with a x4 multiplier, and as a berserker barbarian you are scoring a critical hit on a 17-20 with a x5 multiplier, and a 19-20 with a x6 multiplier. I have not yet taken the time to formally run the numbers however it would appear to me that having the increased crit range would be of more benefit, meaning dps and aggro mitigation, than an increased multiplier at a smaller crit range.

One other aspect which has not been brought forth directly is this; even if a berserker barbarian is able to out dps a critical rage barbarian, what of smiting, banishing, puncturing, enfeebling, and bonebreaking? Will the berserker build be able to provide that in lue of a critical rage barbarian? I understand that currently wounding and/or puncturing has been the core of many barbarians, and is the cause of much strife between different barbarian builds as well as other classes. Will this be nerfed to "balance" that/these classes/builds? Maybe. Maybe not. As to whether or not I think they should is a matter of personal opinion. However will they nerf ALL manner of stat damage to "balance" this dilemma? Will we see a beholder take ten critical hits from a weakening of enfeebling weapon and still leave us smoldering in the ground from a spell because it has "resisted" our attempts to drop its strength? I found this scenario very doubtful.

Bearing all that I have stated and questioned above, I am forced to ask, which will be more viable, a two handed barbarian, or a two weapon barbarian? And which path? As a two handed barbarian your base damage will be higher, however, as a two weapon barbarian you receive several more attacks in a attack sequence. As a berserker barbarian you will crit for a x1 multiplier on all attacks unless on a 19-20, in which case you will crit with a x2 multiplier, but as a critical rage barbarian you will crit 10% more than the base critical modifier (provided I have done my math correctly).

I hate to be as repetitive as I have been in this thread but with all of the bickering I feell it is necessary to baby step this and throw in every aspect that needs to be brought into consideration. I personally do have my own bias, that being that I believe the two weapon critical rage barbarian to be the more adaptable to any scenario brought forth to it with regards to stat/instant kill as well as damage output (due to the increased rate of crits and number of attacks), however I obviously have not played a berserker barbarian and have not on my own run each and every scenario past both paths. What I am looking for is a response to either prove my bias wrong or support my hypothesis. Time two pull out the handy pen and paper pad!

[bobbryan2]

It's pretty generally accepted that Frenzied Berserker will do a little more damage, but lose the ability to increase weapon's effects that are on crit.

[Gunga]

There are a lot of words in your post, but I don't think I see any new ideas.

[Stevo_AK]

"What I am looking for is a response to either prove my bias wrong or support my hypothesis."

Just thought I would refresh this point of my thread as currently the responses have lacked "facts that are proven from both experience and testing."

I understand what the generally accepted idea is currently and yes, there are alot of words, and no, no new ideas are being presented here. What I am aiming for is to go past the "generally accepted" idea and get some concrete numbers. I know there has to be at least one guru out there who has taken the time pick apart the two paths and developed some sort of idea as to which will be more viable and why.

[Gunga]

http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22

Check that out to answer most of your questions.

[BlackSteel]

did the math in a previous post, you end up doing about 10% less DPS with Rage only. (using natural 20 weapons) but when using the frenzy boosts, you end up doing about 60-70 DPS more.

before everyone started crying for the multi to be on 19/20 only, the multi barb was doing about 50 DPS more than a crit rage barb. (with a falchion weilding WF approaching 500 DPS *drool*)

what you do lose like previous posters have mentioned is the high percent chance of on crit effects, which is primarily only useful for the TWF barb, as the THF barb doesnt see many of those anyway since both slashing and blunt are pretty gimp on those effects.

So a 10% every day loss in damage to gain a boost for a good deal more.

[Angelus_dead]

It is common knowledge that the heavy pick has the potential of being the highest DPS weapon due to its natural x4 crit modifier

That's not common knowledge, and that's also not true. The pick doesn't exceed the khopesh, although it is close.

I would however like to see how a carnifex compares to a completed greensteel great axe.

That's an easy one: the Carnifex sucks. You don't even have to go to mod6 greensteel to see that it sucks; just hold it up against a Sword of Shadow from mod1. (Carnifex is fine when you're level 6-9, don't get me wrong, but it's not an endgame weapon)

Yet, when you consider heavy picks the debate seem to take a new turn, as you then have to compete with a deathnip. Firstly, for those of you that believe that a deathnip is "gimp", I would like you to supply me with the numbers to prove me wrong when I say that this is one of the highest DPS weapons in the game.

That's an easy one. Here's the number to prove you wrong:
DR 60/Good+Silver
Here's the other number
50% Fortification

One other aspect which has not been brought forth directly is this

Wrong. In reality, it has been discussed multiple times.

Bearing all that I have stated and questioned above, I am forced to ask, which will be more viable, a two handed barbarian, or a two weapon barbarian?

Going by everything we've been shown so far, the two weapon is better.

And which path?

The indications are that Critical Rage is better, although that depends heavily on how much the inability to adjust your other APs hurts you.

[Cold_Stele]

OK here's the bottom line with Crit Rage vs FB.

With FB you are performing as the game is intended. You are nerf proof.

With Crit Rage you are taking advantage of mechanics the devs have stated they regret ever implementing and have started demonstrating that they wish to change. You are vulnerable to nerfing.

Nothing more to say really...

[Roxie]

Here is the math when it comes down to it a beserker barb with a +5 Holy greensteel and lets say u go trip pos so holy,holyburst and holyblast. So out of 20 attacks u crit on a 19-20 10% of the time u crit so we going to only add in madstone rage and barb rage to this 3d6 +48 X5 muilt with power attack and enancments to power attack dwarf barb and we going to say u roll perfect numbers 3d6=18+48=66 a hit base damage no effects. 66x5=330crit add seeker 6 x5=30 360 burst effects 6d6=36+ 6d6 for vis =36 and 2d6 for holy=12 on crit 444x2 for 10% of 20attacks=888 now the other 18 attacks to add. 66+36for vis and +12 for holy=114 on a hit X by 18=2052+888=2940 damege from 20 attacks. K now deathnip gtw barb with crit rage now a gtw barb get 3 more attacks to a twohander for 4 attacks. So 7 attacks to 4 on a beserker 1d6+27X4 in one hand in opp hand 1d6+19X4. so in 20 attacks for a beserker a gtw will have done 35 attacks. 6+27=33 in the otherhand 6+19=25. So deathnips crit on a 15-20 for a cirt barb that 14 times out of its 35 attacks 33X4=132 and in other hand 25X4=100 now seeker and maiming 3d6 for maiming and seeker 8X4=32+18=50 so 182in one hand and 150 in other 182X7 for half the crits=1274 and 150X7=1050+1274=2324 in crits. now the other 21 attacks 33X11 for that hand=363 and 25X10=250+363=613+2324=2937 so beserker got it beat by 3 points so is it worth going beserker build yes if u are a THF but no for GTW i hope this helps anyone out thats been wanting too see the damage diff.

[TommyBoy]

I would however like to see how a carnifex compares to a completed greensteel great axe. try it with a falchon

other then that your missing the whole added effect for glacing blows which will add a lot more damage to the thw barb.

also there is a reason your numbers scew better for crit rage on a twf barbis because they are hence the reason its being dropped. twf barbs are somewhat overpowered. me personally im a two hander and twf dont really bother me but i geuss the devs had thf more inmind for barbs. and this is also only one of the paths there should be two more and one is probibly going to be a twf on.

lastly dude we're barbs we cant read all that our int scores are 8ish

post point so um pp I for one would like to see barb crit come back as a thw ap only as I'm betting that it was intended to help with those crit on 20 weapons

[sephiroth1084]

OK here's the bottom line with Crit Rage vs FB.

With FB you are performing as the game is intended. You are nerf proof.

With Crit Rage you are taking advantage of mechanics the devs have stated they regret ever implementing and have started demonstrating that they wish to change. You are vulnerable to nerfing.

Nothing more to say really...

Sure there is.

You do not need to inflict a TON of damage to yourself while using Crit. Rage in order to perform well. FB changes a barbarian from a mana-sponge to a mana-gravity well.

[Stevo_AK]

Here is the math when it comes down to it a beserker barb with a +5 Holy greensteel and lets say u go trip pos so holy,holyburst and holyblast. So out of 20 attacks u crit on a 19-20 10% of the time u crit so we going to only add in madstone rage and barb rage to this 3d6 +48 X5 muilt with power attack and enancments to power attack dwarf barb and we going to say u roll perfect numbers 3d6=18+48=66 a hit base damage no effects. 66x5=330crit add seeker 6 x5=30 360 burst effects 6d6=36+ 6d6 for vis =36 and 2d6 for holy=12 on crit 444x2 for 10% of 20attacks=888 now the other 18 attacks to add. 66+36for vis and +12 for holy=114 on a hit X by 18=2052+888=2940 damege from 20 attacks. K now deathnip gtw barb with crit rage now a gtw barb get 3 more attacks to a twohander for 4 attacks. So 7 attacks to 4 on a beserker 1d6+27X4 in one hand in opp hand 1d6+19X4. so in 20 attacks for a beserker a gtw will have done 35 attacks. 6+27=33 in the otherhand 6+19=25. So deathnips crit on a 15-20 for a cirt barb that 14 times out of its 35 attacks 33X4=132 and in other hand 25X4=100 now seeker and maiming 3d6 for maiming and seeker 8X4=32+18=50 so 182in one hand and 150 in other 182X7 for half the crits=1274 and 150X7=1050+1274=2324 in crits. now the other 21 attacks 33X11 for that hand=363 and 25X10=250+363=613+2324=2937 so beserker got it beat by 3 points so is it worth going beserker build yes if u are a THF but no for GTW i hope this helps anyone out thats been wanting too see the damage diff.

So if you where to add the alchemical force damage to the greataxe as well as the two deathnips we would see a two weapon barbarian weilding deathnips do 12 more points of damage. And how would this compare to khopesh?

That's not common knowledge, and that's also not true. The pick doesn't exceed the khopesh, although it is close.

I tend to disagree however if roxie could pull the numbers it would be greatly appreciated. Further note on khopesh regardless of the numbers, how exactly do you plan on have all of the two weapon fighting feats, toughness, power attack etc. AND fit in khopesh proficiency? and 50% fort. . . would that not give all the more reason to try and broaden your crit range to compensate for that, seeing as how a berserker barbarian weilding a greataxe will then only crit on a 20, there by negating the damage boost provided by the improved crit multiplier.

[Angelus_dead]

I tend to disagree however if roxie could pull the numbers it would be greatly appreciated.

Here are the numbers: 1d8 15-20/x3 vs 1d6 17-20/x4.

Further note on khopesh regardless of the numbers, how exactly do you plan on have all of the two weapon fighting feats, toughness, power attack etc. AND fit in khopesh proficiency?

Toughness doesn't contribute to weapon damage. The fact that khopesh costs more feats doesn't mean it doesn't do more damage.

and 50% fort. . . would that not give all the more reason to try and broaden your crit range to compensate for that

Absolutely not. The higher a monster's fort, the less important crits are, and the more you must rely on base damage plus other damage-dice

[seldarin]

So if you where to add the alchemical force damage to the greataxe as well as the two deathnips we would see a two weapon barbarian weilding deathnips do 12 more points of damage. And how would this compare to khopesh?



I tend to disagree however if roxie could pull the numbers it would be greatly appreciated. Further note on khopesh regardless of the numbers, how exactly do you plan on have all of the two weapon fighting feats, toughness, power attack etc. AND fit in khopesh proficiency? and 50% fort. . . would that not give all the more reason to try and broaden your crit range to compensate for that, seeing as how a berserker barbarian weilding a greataxe will then only crit on a 20, there by negating the damage boost provided by the improved crit multiplier.

You can get toughness on a helm at this stage, so that would be one feat you dont have to worry about at the moment. And im sure you can fit the khopesh in there somewhere, its well worth IMO, the higher the fort the less relevant crits become and the more emphasis is placed on damage. So the higher the fort on a monster the less concern there would be for broader crit ranges.

[Roxie]

Here are the numbers: 1d8 15-20/x3 vs 1d6 17-20/x4.


Toughness doesn't contribute to weapon damage. The fact that khopesh costs more feats doesn't mean it doesn't do more damage.


Absolutely not. The higher a monster's fort, the less important crits are, and the more you must rely on base damage plus other damage-dice

Ok for one this post has nothing to do about khopesh and two a crit rage barb crits on a 15-20X3 u got that right but a deathnip does not crit on a 17-20 it crits on a 15-20X4. k I assume that your toon is a GTW so u will have the same amount of attacks. K first the deathnip barb and the khopesh user both crit 14 out of 35 attacks so again 613 base damage with out crit+2324 crit damage=2937 out of 35 swings. K let say u using a greensteel khopesh so a 1d10+28X3 in main hand and 1d10+20X3 in other hand so 10+28=38X3=114 and 10+20=30X3=90 just base crit k bloodstone 6X3=18 so now a 133 and 108 now the khopesh is a tripe acid, k so d6 for acid blast 1d10 for crit and 2d10 for muilt and we will say u rolled 2 natural 20's so 4d6 so +36 on to your crit not on a 20 so now 169 and 144 X that by 7 for each weapon so 1183 in main hand and 1008 in the other hand for crits so 2191 in crits and +48 for your 2 nat 20=2239 now other 21 attacks 38+d6 for acid and 30+d6 acid = 44 in main and 36 in off 44X11=484 and 36X10=360+484=844+2239=3083 in 35 swings so the khopesh user with 2 greensteel wins about 150 more points of damage.

[Roxie]

Now to answer your other question stevo about a carnfix and a greensteel greataxe. We going to use that same greataxe i used in my other 2 post is a beserker barb with that greensteel does 2940 damage in 20 attacks. A carnfix now is a +2 greataxe that crits on a 17-20X3 so 1d12+45X3, it crits 4 times out of 20 attacks instead of 2 times like a greensteel, on a 17 and 18 crit the weapon does 12+45=57X4+seeker6X4=24+57=81X4=324X2=648 for your 17 and 18 crit, add 6d6 for vis, 6d6=36X2=72+648=720. Now your other 2 crits on a 19 and 20. 1d12+45X5 so 12+45=57X5 seeker 6X5=30+57=87X5=435X2=870 add vis to both crits 36X2=72+870=942+720=1662 in crits for 20 attacks. K lets do the other 16 attacks 1d12+45=57+36 in vis=93 a hit, X by 16X93=1488+1662=3150 in 20 swings, so a lvl 4 weapon does more damage then a greensteel greataxe if both barb go beserker. The carnfix does 210 more damage, that good for a lvl 4 weapon.

[Noctus]

@ Roxie
Can you please make useof the "Return" key? Your posts are terrible to read.
Just some breaks and it will be much more pleasant to read.

[Roxie]

I are sorry. . . Hehe yes I can get a little carried away, but at least my numbers are right! =)

[Thrudh]

I are sorry. . . Hehe yes I can get a little carried away, but at least my numbers are right! =)

They may be right... It's impossible to read them though.