New record of Elite Abbot run

[alchilito]

D&D players have a word for someone who thinks it's immoral to workaround a bug in paid software: Lawful Stupid.

No one is talking about morality AD.

I know a TON of players that are beating the abbot, probably in times similar to the ones posted by OP. Do they come here to brag about their completion ? No. Because they don't care.

I always love reading your all mighty, my word is the final word posts. They always deliver.

[Strakeln]

bro please explain to me how beating a broken quest obviously using cheese is an achievement at all

Because even with using cheese and/or exploits, it's still quite a difficult task to accomplish. Most groups that go in there - cheese/exploits or not - fail time after time after time.

For a silly example, say you decided to swim across the Atlantic, and succeed at doing it... but I know you used a boat for the first half. I'd still remain impressed, as you swam across half the ocean - a notable accomplishment in its own right.

Now, if it was revealed you rode a boat across the entire ocean, I would no longer be impressed.

Applying that to this situation - I assume some level of cheese, especially regarding the asteroid room, but I highly doubt there was any blue-flag-level exploiting going on (walk in, auto-attack, afk, come back and get loot).

btw I did necro my old Asteroid Survey thread.

Cool, hopefully that'll catch some dev attention.

[Angelus_dead]

No one is talking about morality AD.

That is untrue, as would be obvious to anyone who has read these posts.

I know a TON of players that are beating the abbot, probably in times similar to the ones posted by OP. Do they come here to brag about their completion ? No. Because they don't care.

And if they did publicize it more, they might encourage Turbine to actually fix their product.

I always love reading your all mighty, my word is the final word posts. They always deliver.

I love it when people act like being right is a bad thing.

[alchilito]

Because even with using cheese and/or exploits, it's still quite a difficult task to accomplish. Most groups that go in there - cheese/exploits or not - fail time after time after time.

For a silly example, say you decided to swim across the Atlantic, and succeed at doing it... but I know you used a boat for the first half. I'd still remain impressed, as you swam across half the ocean - a notable accomplishment in its own right.

Now, if it was revealed you rode a boat across the entire ocean, I would no longer be impressed.

Applying that to this situation - I assume some level of cheese, especially regarding the asteroid room, but I highly doubt there was any blue-flag-level exploiting going on (walk in, auto-attack, afk, come back and get loot).

Not gonna respond to this one Strak, just gonna let someone else tear it up.

[alchilito]

I love it when people act like being right is a bad thing.

I am terribly sorry for starting an argument with DDO forums all mighty poster. Please show us the right way oh mighty one.

[Quanefel]

D&D players have a word for someone who thinks it's immoral to workaround a bug in paid software: Lawful Stupid.

And we in game have a few words for someone who uses cheese and is caught: Banned and no longer playing.

Immorality is not the issue. Rules are rules whether people like them or follow them.

[Quanefel]

That's really too obvious to deserve an answer, but anyhow:
The word "achievement" means "finishing successfully", especially if it involved unusual levels of ability. The Abbot raid is difficult to complete even if you do cheat, and to finish it in under 10 minutes is even more difficult.

Thus by the minimal meaning of those words, it is an achievement. To claim otherwise is to spread a damaging myth that the "cheat" used by Abbot-raiders is some kind of godmode passcode that gives you a free victory as long as you're willing to do it. It's not: in reality, the cheat simply brings the raid down to approximately the difficulty the designers had intended.

The asteroid room doesn't work like they meant it to. Maybe they can't tell, or haven't looked, or just don't want to admit it. But players cannot be blamed for the mistakes of the developers, as long as the players aren't going around claiming that the raid is fine and needs no editing.

Blame Turbine for the actions of the players abusing something? Good one! I am sure the Dev's or GM's would take no issue with that. So now anyone can claim an achievement, even if they did not actually acheive it? To claim a "cheat" is some kind of myth, that is damaging? Yeah, I guess it is best not to give such a negative feel to the word "cheat", to prevent those who do from feeling...guilty or something.

Maybe someday people will accept responsiblity for their own actions, not make excuses or blame others for it.

[Angelus_dead]

And we in game have a few words for someone who uses cheese and is caught: Banned and no longer playing.

That's blatantly wrong, and for two definitions of "wrong": it's both untrue and a bad idea.

Immorality is not the issue. Rules are rules whether people like them or follow them.

If your community has any "mentor" figure or wise advisor like a teacher, pastor, or respected elder, I suggest you visit and ask her to explore that problem with you. Even a lawyer would probably be happy to explain it.

[bobbryan2]

And we in game have a few words for someone who uses cheese and is caught: Banned and no longer playing.

Immorality is not the issue. Rules are rules whether people like them or follow them.

Except that there have been plenty of threads with full on explanations about how to 'cheese' through the asteroid room, including videos posted.

None were deleted.

So apparantly the devs don't agree with you. Sorry!

[Quanefel]

That's blatantly wrong, and for two definitions of "wrong": it's both untrue and a bad idea.


If your community has any "mentor" figure or wise advisor like a teacher, pastor, or respected elder, I suggest you visit and ask her to explore that problem with you. Even a lawyer would probably be happy to explain it.

It is untrue and a bad idea that if a player is caught cheating they do not get banned for it? Are you really sure you want to state that with the rules being available to anyone stating differently and common sense says otherwise?

I do not need to do any such thing. A rule is there for all to follow, you can not suggest otherwise. If a person does not like a rule or law, then it is up to them to work to change rule or law. Breaking them as some kind of protest will still get a person in trouble. Fact of life.

[Angelus_dead]

Except that there have been plenty of threads with full on explanations about how to 'cheese' through the asteroid room, including videos posted.

Not entirely. I've never seen a video of the currently popular method (give a link if you know one!).

But in the more general sense you are correct: there are plenty of players who have admitted to cheating through that raid, and they weren't banned. It would be bad business for Turbine to drop paying customers for something like that (as I'm sure you know).

[bobbryan2]

It is untrue and a bad idea that if a player is caught cheating they do not get banned for it? Are you really sure you want to state that with the rules being available to anyone stating differently and common sense says otherwise?

I do not need to do any such thing. A rule is there for all to follow, you can not suggest otherwise. If a person does not like a rule or law, then it is up to them to work to change rule or law. Breaking them as some kind of protest will still get a person in trouble. Fact of life.

And if a person thinks a law is unconstitutional... and wants to take it to the supreme court.

How exactly do they go about it?

Oh yeah, they have to break it and go on trial.

Oh... that doesn't help your point though, sorry.

[bobbryan2]

Not entirely. I've never seen a video of the currently popular method (give a link if you know one!).

But in the more general sense you are correct: there are plenty of players who have admitted to cheating through that raid, and they weren't banned. It would be bad business for Turbine to drop paying customers for something like that (as I'm sure you know).

Nah.. last few videos I saw were stoning ghouls and hanging off ledges... But the ultimate point is that the devs have washed their hands of the raid. Pretty much any discussion is allowed on the forums, with regards to beating the puzzles.

[deadkitty]

That is you avoiding my question for a second time. I think it is clear you had really nothing to back up your accusations. It is probably reasonable for me not to expect an answer. Just you throwing out unsupported wild statements about my character.

I did answer you question read the post.

I understand people can accomplish something I might not understand fully, that is why a person will ask questions. TO understand what they do not know. Get it?

The way you ask questions insinuates that you are accusing them of exploiting.

Generally you give positive congratuations when they are deserving, I am not going to give them out simply because someone else thinks I should. People have the freedom to congratulate others as they see fit.


I was not resorting to finding alternate motives to instigate that their methods amounted to using cheese. Others maybe but not me. I asked a question and had discussions to others about using cheese in a general sense. If you assume I was pointing the finger at anyone or this instance, you are incorrect, yet again.

Do you even read your own posts? You are the only one here coming off with derigitory posts.

[Angelus_dead]

It is untrue and a bad idea that if a player is caught cheating they do not get banned for it? Are you really sure you want to state that with the rules being available to anyone stating differently and common sense says otherwise?

Common sense is on my side, as is ten thousand years of human history.

I do not need to do any such thing. A rule is there for all to follow, you can not suggest otherwise. If a person does not like a rule or law, then it is up to them to work to change rule or law. Breaking them as some kind of protest will still get a person in trouble. Fact of life.

That kind of thinking will get you in trouble. Optimistically I hope that you don't really believe that in your heart.

[Big-Dex]

Gratz to the OP and his crew on their accomplishment!

Considering the time (7 minutes) and the difficulty (Elite), a few deductions can be made about their achievement.

The Phase Tile puzzle was old school challenging during their run. On eliite, the timing is what it orginally was when the RAID first came out and that was tough to do. It took a ton of practice and I know of no exploitive means around it. Interestingly enough, most can't do it with the new timings on normal, so... great job!

The traps on Ice Wand puzzle on the ice wand puzzle hit hard enough on normal. On elite, a mistep there is still gonna be tough as the traps will hit with elite power. There are a few sidesteps here, but most don't require them, as this has always been the most doable of the puzzles.

The asteroid puzzle is broken. I do not know if they used a tactic to get around doing it, nor will I accuse them of such. That is for them to say. Nevertheless, the flesh-to-stone tactic (which is approved by the DEVS) is tough to do under any circumstance. The other known tactic is ... well ... cheezy is an understatement... but who could fault them under the circumstances. Most skilled players have succumb to it. This room would be my only fault with any current accomplishment... but who knows... maybe these guys are doing it right. I will not speculate on their method.

Overall, even if you can get past these three puzzles, which most can't, once you get back to the platform, you are in for one of the toughest fights in game right now. Based on their time (7 minutes), these guys are obviously not waiting for his mantle to come down, so they can't use the persistent spells on him. On elite, his HP are ramped up significantly, so they are genuinely bringing some seriously BIGTIME beatdown on him! And, save scoring an encasement over an ice flow, they still have to have some serious skillz and coordination to make this happen while surviving his inferno, his encasements and his phased wraiths. Death Pact will help the clerics to survive a party wipe, but as I stated, having been to this point many times, this is no easy fight ... let alone on elite. Those who have rolled this RAID, many of whom are among the most skilled players in DDO, can attest to the fact that even if you get the puzzles done, you are not nearly done yet. It is no smooth ride to the end. You couple this with the fact that the ice flow wands (as well as the other items of power) are still destroy on death, they are doing something right in there.

So, 7 minutes on elite is an accomplishment and is worthy of recogniition. Outside of a faster time on elite with the RAID in its current form, the only achievement more boastable would be to prove positive a straight up roll on the asteroids or to do so with only six going to the puzzle.

FLAME RETARDANT: I know I have been down on such boasts before, but I have worked this RAID extensively and know what it takes to do what they are doing. My only hope and/or complaint would be, even in my past rants on this, is that the folks would share their tactics so the DEVs could see what is really going on in there. I can say beyond any shadow of a doubt that they do read these threads, that they are listening and that this information does help them. It would be nice to see this RAID just a touch more widely achievable, as it is only better for the DDO community as a whole.

Gratz again to the OP and his crew!

Dex was here.

[Angelus_dead]

Nah.. last few videos I saw were stoning ghouls and hanging off ledges... But the ultimate point is that the devs have washed their hands of the raid. Pretty much any discussion is allowed on the forums, with regards to beating the puzzles.

Maybe the discussion is allowed, but players still don't act like it. There remains "Wink Wink Nudge Nudge" in Abbot explanations.

I still haven't seen a person come out on this forum and simply fill in the blanks: "When you get to the Asteroid room, both players need to ******* ***** ******* ****** and then **** **** **** ** after **** ******"

I'm not brave enough to fill in that sentence. I wonder if anyone is...

[BlackSteel]

I knew someone who was banned, from game and forum b/c of the abbott. Mostly for posting videos of hanging off the ledge back when the devs did care if the players cheesed the quest or not.

[bobbryan2]

Maybe the discussion is allowed, but players still don't act like it. There remains "Wink Wink Nudge Nudge" in Abbot explanations.

I still haven't seen a person come out on this forum and simply fill in the blanks: "When you get to the Asteroid room, both players need to ******* ***** ******* ****** and then **** **** **** ** after **** ******"

I'm not brave enough to fill in that sentence. I wonder if anyone is...

Oh.. I have.

It was quite prevalent there for a while. Players are just wary, because they know if any forum mod has the slightest change in attitude, it could come crashing down... so why put yourself out there for people that weren't actually interested in learning in the first place, and merely wanted to crucify you.

There were step by step instructions and videos with both ledge hanging and dispel/stone methods.

[bobbryan2]

I knew someone who was banned, from game and forum b/c of the abbott. Mostly for posting videos of hanging off the ledge back when the devs did care if the players cheesed the quest or not.

Really... that video was up for months.. I figured it still was.