Haggle Bard - Mississippi Queen

[NaturalHazard]

That's pretty much the answer... as much as I'd love to disagree with ya. Far more CC variety, as sad as that sounds.

Now to those who enjoy multitasking and understand CC is only PART of a buffing/healing/curing/melee solution, bards are still quite great and unique.

They still are the ultimate team player.

hehe isnt this basically what I said just with the order reversed?



bards are great, but I personally think they could do with a bit of love, i mean the other arcane spell casters got a ton of love, the 2 primary divine classes got a ton of love 2, esp favoured souls.

I think bards should get a little 2, and some of it should be a bit more power to our spell casting. Im not a pnp buff, but where there some good spells and abilities for bards in terms of casting? There was an epic feat/song in nwn2 that did sonic damage as an AOE as the song was activated. IDK something like that would be nice as long as it wasnt over powered. Also a debuffing song vs enemies would also be nice.

[Aashrym]

well bards are especially awesome if you run a lot of raids. And CC isnt the only trick in the bards book. If your in a guild a lot of them will thank you for rolling a bard. A bard is one of the best team player classes, but they can also solo pretty well, a lot of people would be supprised.

anyway if you want crowd control and damage spells roll a wizard.

Bards are awesome depending on the number of melees in the group. In a raid full of casters they don`t do much except add +1 DC and more SP. EDIT: warchanters and virts do less for those groups than spellsingers.

Now that more casters are filling DPS slots there are less benefits from melee buffs. That`s one of those hidden nerfs that is the natural result of game play and a shift in party composition.

More spells exist for bards they just need to be implemented, including some more sonic damage spells. I don`t want to derail this thread with a side conversation on bard casting in general tho. There`s plenty of room for debate in the thread in my sig.

Wizards have been a better choice for CC for a long time. No the better choice became even more better with the U9 changes.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

bards are great, but I personally think they could do with a bit of love, i mean the other arcane spell casters got a ton of love, the 2 primary divine classes got a ton of love 2, esp favoured souls.

I think bards should get a little 2, and some of it should be a bit more power to our spell casting.

NOW you see what I was getting at. Crowd Control is clearly wanted by the bard community at large. I've been utilizing CC extensively on my drow wizard and multiple bards since game start, and I enjoy the art immensely. As many have learned with Aashrym's thread (I knew it all along, as most long time CC vets do), a lot of people feel the same way. Even some that have given up on Turbine's CC implementation (or lack there-of) long ago.

Please take the rest of this nice convo we are having to Aashrym's thread as he suggested. I'm happy to have it here, but it will get better visibility in his thread, which is soley based on just this topic. Definitely voice your opinion there...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Had a chance yesterday to voice my opinion about how to make bards better on the Kalari's Den podcast... might be a fun listen to those who have enjoyed using crowd control on their bards and/or those who want to see the bard class improved....

You can listen to Kalari's show, Episode 5 Song of Heroes on there or on iTunes here:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/k...ou/id447077573

(Downloading it allows you to forward/reverse/pause it etc.)

1:05:35 is the start of our bard conversation.

Enjoy!

[NaturalHazard]

hmm leslie have you had a look at the changes to the elyed edge or what ever its called? Do you think it could lead to a 2wf version maybe of this build if you could max charisma and duel weild epic elyed edges?

[Valindria]

hmm leslie have you had a look at the changes to the elyed edge or what ever its called? Do you think it could lead to a 2wf version maybe of this build if you could max charisma and duel weild epic elyed edges?

It could but it's a waste since you will be forced to use 1 weapon and have feats devoted to TWF. It's possible but I would rather build a good bard with high haggle then have max haggle, forced into 1 weapon set, and not have the CC spells or Healing metas to do other things. You would be better off IMO making a SS and just using 1 EE and a shield with 0% ASF.

Roughly:

Human

1 toughness
1 extend
3 PA
6 WF or Mental Toughness or other WC/SS/Virt Prereq
9 TWF
12 iCrit
15 iTWF
18 gTWF

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

hmm leslie have you had a look at the changes to the elyed edge or what ever its called? Do you think it could lead to a 2wf version maybe of this build if you could max charisma and duel weild epic elyed edges?

It sure can. Max cha/haggle skills/enhancements. Feats exactly the way Valindria laid it out (one possible change: quicken is possible at level 6).

TWF builds must purchase the entire TWF chain. There's no other way.

I love the updated epic Elyd Edge. Its similar enough to what I asked for in Aashrym's bard U9 thread (I love that they went for the sonic dot!... and even included a version of my Medley idea for bard songs...) :

Epic Elyd Edge:

Just holding Eylds Edge empowers a bard with sonic powers unlike any other class. Empowered with new powerful abilities, this bard can benefit nearby party members while damaging creatures that enter it's aura.

+6 Rapier, 2d6 base, Attack Mod: CHA, Charisma +7, good, adamantine, magic damage (just like SOS)

Keen -- 15-20 crit range (bards only: if you have improved crit slashing or piercing, 17-20 otherwise). x3 crit multiplier.

Sonic Weapon -- 1d6 sonic damage per hit.

Wounding Whispers -- Caster is surrounded by a sonic aura that harms those who attack him. Anything striking the wielder with a melee attack takes 1d6 + 1/lvl Sonic damage.

Cacophonic Burst -- on crit: You cause a burst of low, discordant noise to erupt at the chosen location. It deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per bard level to all creatures within the area.

Tactical Precision -- Up to 1 party member per level in a 30’ area are better able to coordinate their attacks. If two of this spell’s subjects flank the same creature, they receive an extra +2 Insight bonus on their attacks on that creature and do +1d6 damage if the creature is vulnerable to sneak attacks.

Anthem -- song regen.

What do ya'll think?

The actual newly updated EEE:

Epic Elyd Edge: Now has Screaming, as well as "Cacophony:" a sonic damage effect equal in proc rate and power to Incineration. It will use the higher of Strength or Charisma for to-hit and damage. Will also have a new effect called "Inspiring Echoes:" a Bard wielder's Inspire Heroics, Inspire Competence and Song of Freedom become AoE while this weapon is held.

Genesi - "The bard songs still can't affect anyone who's not a valid target- that includes the bard him/herself, in the case of Inspire Competence and Song of Freedom. Inspire Heroics, though, will definitely include the bard as part of the AoE. This is more a mechanic of how the songs work than what I would ideally want the weapon to allow, but it's how it will function for now."

[karl_k0ch]

Sorry for not combing through the whole 40 pages where this question might be answered already.

What's the idea behind Heighten on the second build in the OP?

What's your opinion on the following feat layout for a main healer, max haggle, with some mellee potential:

1: Maximize
H: Toughness
3: Extend
6: PA
9: Quicken
12: IC: Slash
15: SF: Haggle
18: Negotiator.

Possible PrEs are Spell Singer and Virtuoso. Possible alterations are taking the Haggle feats earlier and delaying PA (bad to-hit) and Quicken (too much SP).

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Sorry for not combing through the whole 40 pages where this question might be answered already.

What's the idea behind Heighten on the second build in the OP?

What's your opinion on the following feat layout for a main healer, max haggle, with some mellee potential:

1: Maximize
H: Toughness
3: Extend
6: PA
9: Quicken
12: IC: Slash
15: SF: Haggle
18: Negotiator.

Possible PrEs are Spell Singer and Virtuoso. Possible alterations are taking the Haggle feats earlier and delaying PA (bad to-hit) and Quicken (too much SP).

The reason for heighten is to get a longer ride out of the lower/mid cc spells (can always be swapped out at end game). Your layout is also great however. Heighten is for cc/flavor.

[karl_k0ch]

The reason for heighten is to get a longer ride out of the lower/mid cc spells (can always be swapped out at end game). Your layout is also great however. Heighten is for cc/flavor.

Thanks for the insight. I'm still not sure what flavor I want to give to my future Haggle Bard. My main priorities are Healing and Haggling. Secondary is CC (depending on which measures are available). Tertiary is Melee.

I think that my proposed feat spread above is actually not contributing enough, and I am thinking to dump the Melee feats.
Would the caster/CC approach also work if I only took SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, but not the Spell Pen feat? The reason is that I don't want to miss Quicken, which I assume is essential when healing in Raids.

New feat layout for a Healing Hagglebot with casting CC:

1 Maximize
H Toughness
3 Extend
6 SF: Enchant
9 GSF: Enchant
12 SF: Haggle
15 Negotiator
18 Quicken

Is it worth it without Spell Penetration?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Thanks for the insight. I'm still not sure what flavor I want to give to my future Haggle Bard. My main priorities are Healing and Haggling. Secondary is CC (depending on which measures are available). Tertiary is Melee.

I think that my proposed feat spread above is actually not contributing enough, and I am thinking to dump the Melee feats.
Would the caster/CC approach also work if I only took SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, but not the Spell Pen feat? The reason is that I don't want to miss Quicken, which I assume is essential when healing in Raids.

New feat layout for a Healing Hagglebot with casting CC:

1 Maximize
H Toughness
3 Extend
6 SF: Enchant
9 GSF: Enchant
12 SF: Haggle
15 Negotiator
18 Quicken

Is it worth it without Spell Penetration?

The problem with dumping the melee feats is Turbine's p!ss poor response to the bard community's desires for crowd control and sonic powers. I've been saying the bard community has been wanting more spells for years, and Aashrym's recent and highly popular thread highlights this, as I've told him and Turbine it would. Actually the bards' call for more CC, songs, sonic power in Aashrym's thread is more impressive than I could have ever wished for. Yet still NOTHING AT ALL from Turbine.

Because of this refusal to act by Turbine, in light of what the bard community has been asking for, I see the melee feats as a quality path to take the Mississippee build.

However, if you are like me, and desire to be an overwhelmingly solid healer and proud & well tuned CC artist (aka using CC often, essentially as your main weapon), build it the way you have most recently suggested or the way I did in the top build in the OP. I personally prefer the spell pen as well though, as I believe both are important to a CC artist. (Id nuke the haggle feats if you go this route. They are unnecessary and will allow you to go exactly the way you chose AND pickup max spell pen in addition)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

For easy reference, at long last, I've included a summary of my favorite posts in the OP (all the way on the bottom).

[pappo]

For easy reference, at long last, I've included a summary of my favorite posts in the OP (all the way on the bottom).

Hi Leslie
I have my Mississippi clone up to lvl 12 now and she is a blast to play. So after reading Mississippi Queen II I thought I would give that one a try as well.
I read your posts (at bottom of Post #1) and wondered if you have changed your mind on the spells you show in your "my spells" post, since the recent "nerfing". I saw that on your Mississippi Queen II (more melee type) that you are not using hypnotism or soundburst. Is that because it is a melee hybrid of the original Miss ? I have my toon up to lvl 5 and a Maximized Sonic Blast is a stunner over 80% of the time. It's just too bad they recover so quickly.. Sometimes, if I Sonic Blast a caster in the back of a room, they recover before I can jump over and get to them.
All in all though, I am having a lot of fun with Miss Q II.
Thanks as always for your builds and information.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Hi Leslie
I have my Mississippi clone up to lvl 12 now and she is a blast to play. So after reading Mississippi Queen II I thought I would give that one a try as well.
I read your posts (at bottom of Post #1) and wondered if you have changed your mind on the spells you show in your "my spells" post, since the recent "nerfing". I saw that on your Mississippi Queen II (more melee type) that you are not using hypnotism or soundburst. Is that because it is a melee hybrid of the original Miss ? I have my toon up to lvl 5 and a Maximized Sonic Blast is a stunner over 80% of the time. It's just too bad they recover so quickly.. Sometimes, if I Sonic Blast a caster in the back of a room, they recover before I can jump over and get to them.
All in all though, I am having a lot of fun with Miss Q II.
Thanks as always for your builds and information.

I have very limited internet time (library times extremely limited) atm due to major damage from the Hurricane. We've been without electricity since Sunday arent expecting it up til Friday 11pm edt.

I often change spells around, however recently have been very unhappy with a majority of bard spell options. The spells I have posted are the ones I'm using atm, however, I'm looking forward to Turbine getting off their pillow and gettin g to work on bards!

More on this as soon as I get back to my normal connection time, Pappo! As always, glad you are having fun!

[arjiwan]

Hi Leslie,

I read about the crafting / haggle artificer build (that you have blessings). I also read somewhere about the Improved UMD of artificer, and honestly, I don't know the exact details (if it is an enhancement / feat, only for atis).

What do you think about some idea for some bard love, like Improved Haggle? You know, bards should have more street cred than other classes IMHO.


*By the way, I managed to have a sustainable 87-88 haggle iirc*

Cheers!

[Aashrym]

Hi Leslie
I have my Mississippi clone up to lvl 12 now and she is a blast to play. So after reading Mississippi Queen II I thought I would give that one a try as well.
I read your posts (at bottom of Post #1) and wondered if you have changed your mind on the spells you show in your "my spells" post, since the recent "nerfing". I saw that on your Mississippi Queen II (more melee type) that you are not using hypnotism or soundburst. Is that because it is a melee hybrid of the original Miss ? I have my toon up to lvl 5 and a Maximized Sonic Blast is a stunner over 80% of the time. It's just too bad they recover so quickly.. Sometimes, if I Sonic Blast a caster in the back of a room, they recover before I can jump over and get to them.
All in all though, I am having a lot of fun with Miss Q II.
Thanks as always for your builds and information.

I'm not Les but I have an opinion on those spells.

Cost of applying the meta's isn't worth it as we advance to higher levels when we can just apply the higher level spells to better effect, especially after the U9 spell pass. Heightened hypno to make the DC work costs too much for the duration when I can get similar effect but better usage from spells like deep slumber, disco ball, or crushing despair (debuff effect) with longer durations.

I like it better now as a cheap debuff now that we can select active meta's on it in U11 because level 1 spells are not really a crowded group of spell slots for me. Unheightened I can make use of the debuff cheaply.

It's a similar issue with sonic blast and sound burst. Those are decent spells at level but when I get to higher levels I replace them with greater shout. Heightening sonic blast or sound burst only gives me range and normally I can move to hit with a greater shout for better damage and cheaper SP costs. The damage from sonic spells doesn't scale well with higher levels for the cost.

With sonic blast I can replace that using daze monster for a higher DC just because it's an enchantment and carries a debuff. Sonic blast is only better if the target is immune to enchantments. I've carried both to toggle back and forth while leveling, but not at higher levels.

Sound burst has picked up a bit IMO now that we will be able to apply specific meta's too, but the only advantage is a ranged AoE stun over greater shout and that costs me heightening it 4 levels (20 SP) on a 15 SP spell (compared to greater shout also at 15 SP with more damage and no need to heighten) so it becomes situational but at least we're not blowing SP on enhancing the damage for sound burst any more.

Quick recovery is part of the issue with those low level spells. They tend to be replaced by higher level spells for functionality. Just my current opinion on them, subject to change.

[Lunzatis]

wondering if half-elf or drow would be a possible race for this build. If so, any recommendations?

[karl_k0ch]

wondering if half-elf or drow would be a possible race for this build. If so, any recommendations?

It depends on what you are after.

Drow has a negative Con mod, which is bad, and the additional Cha allows you to have one point of Cha more than a human. This might or might not change your DCs (and Haggle score) in a positive way. Also, you lose a feat, which hampers either your casting abilities, or your haggle skills. Additionally, you lose the Human versatility, which is at least a +5 skill boost.

As far as I can see it, Helf has the same benefits as a Human, with the exception of one less skill point per level (this may or may not be a problem, depending on your priorities), and instead of a free feat (which is on a feat-starved class as a bard a huge benefit), you have a dilettante feat. If you find a Dilly which is worth more than +2 Haggle, or one of the Casting feats: Go for it.

[NaturalHazard]

The problem with dumping the melee feats is Turbine's p!ss poor response to the bard community's desires for crowd control and sonic powers. I've been saying the bard community has been wanting more spells for years, and Aashrym's recent and highly popular thread highlights this, as I've told him and Turbine it would. Actually the bards' call for more CC, songs, sonic power in Aashrym's thread is more impressive than I could have ever wished for. Yet still NOTHING AT ALL from Turbine.

Because of this refusal to act by Turbine, in light of what the bard community has been asking for, I see the melee feats as a quality path to take the Mississippee build.

However, if you are like me, and desire to be an overwhelmingly solid healer and proud & well tuned CC artist (aka using CC often, essentially as your main weapon), build it the way you have most recently suggested or the way I did in the top build in the OP. I personally prefer the spell pen as well though, as I believe both are important to a CC artist. (Id nuke the haggle feats if you go this route. They are unnecessary and will allow you to go exactly the way you chose AND pickup max spell pen in addition)

The thing is I already have a melee bard, and I dont want to turn this one into a melee bard, boring!! I think switching toons and playing a slightly different role, and having back up healing/CCing option is often a good thing in epic and other quests raids, it allows me more flexibility on my bards as well as more fun, but this pigeonholing they have done to bards really sucks. Ive toyed with the idea of maybe doing a max charisma 2wf bard with dueling weilding 2 elyd edges but I doubt I could make that work, will have to splash then will still be short on feats.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The thing is I already have a melee bard, and I dont want to turn this one into a melee bard, boring!!

Exactly the reason I kept Mississippee the way I built her I will not let Turbine dictate my playstyle.

I built Genghis Khan, as many of you know, that plays a significantly larger DPS role that can also fills various bard responsibilities.